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Dev blog: Overlays, ISK Buyer Amnesty and Account Security

First post First post
Author
Rawthorm
The Establishment
#301 - 2016-02-25 15:35:02 UTC
Can anyone at CCP confirm if the timing of this rule "clarification" is down to CCP FoxFour looking for the door? As he is/was a contributor to EvE-O I'm wondering if this blog has been lurking in the shadows for quite some time.
Alissa Solette
Emergency Exit
#302 - 2016-02-25 15:53:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Alissa Solette
I also want a clear answer from CCP about all this vague blather in the dev blog. Give us a simple (non-exhaustive) list of third party tools that are clearly in violation of the EULA.

What about the roughly 5 or 10 third party tools that were actively mentioned in this thread, which one of them are considered forbidden by CCP?

And while you're at it: what about gaming hardware? Is it a bannable offense to have a single button on your G15 keyboard activate two or three modules at a time? Or overheat only 2 high slots instead of the entire rack? Where is the limit of whats allowed when it comes to specialized gaming periphery? I've asked this about 5 times in the last 10 years and never have gotten any useful answer so far.

You can't come in here and have your employees tell people that they will be banned if they use certain tools and then not specify exactly which tools or what features are going to lead to a ban...

Sure, tools that allow me to control multiple clients with a single user input are obviously forbidden. But what about overlays that don't provide information from a second EVE client but rather from a killboard?

And if you're unwilling or unable to provide any useful information except that you'll simply monitor server logs then please tell us how high our kill efficiency is allowed to be before you consider it a bannable offence (or which other metrics are you going to be watching in the case of a tool like PLH)?

You guys have been at this for nearly 13 years. Isn't it finally time to get your act together and give us some proper information instead of this vague talk that could mean anything? We're floating in limbo here....
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#303 - 2016-02-25 15:54:32 UTC
Rawthorm wrote:
Can anyone at CCP confirm if the timing of this rule "clarification" is down to CCP FoxFour looking for the door? As he is/was a contributor to EvE-O I'm wondering if this blog has been lurking in the shadows for quite some time.


RIP one of the less obvious, but most important devs. This game nearly requires third party tools to deal with the massive amount of information that needs to be tracked and dealt with, and now the only dev with the inclination to help the community with them is leaving.

EVE isn't dying, but it definitely seems to be a two steps forwards, two steps back sort of deal recently.
Koenig Yazria
Adversity.
Snuffed Out
#304 - 2016-02-25 15:57:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Koenig Yazria
Anhenka wrote:
This game nearly requires third party tools


Its not "nearly".

It is required.
Soltys
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#305 - 2016-02-25 16:03:53 UTC
Rawthorm wrote:
Can anyone at CCP confirm if the timing of this rule "clarification" is down to CCP FoxFour looking for the door? As he is/was a contributor to EvE-O I'm wondering if this blog has been lurking in the shadows for quite some time.


Huh ? Where ? When ?

Jita Flipping Inc.: Kovl & Kuvl

Daugan
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#306 - 2016-02-25 16:17:47 UTC
Catt Stevens
Karusaka Family
#307 - 2016-02-25 16:19:52 UTC
...sigh.... I really liked CCP Socks..... :(
Som Boty
Super Mother Fan Club
#308 - 2016-02-25 16:22:31 UTC
Spcius Patrouette wrote:
15 pages. still no response from CCP. cool.



this is why i now have 5/15 accounts unsubbed now, sold four characters, and have taken down 1 of my wormholes.

Im just going to keep going until they either respond or until I've turned off all of my accounts.
Hilti Enaka
Assisted Homicide
#309 - 2016-02-25 16:34:23 UTC
Provide a list of overlays and third party apps that you consider to be banable. You provide minimal examples of what you consider ok, but no comprehensive list of what you consider to be not ok. This is too vague. The risk is inconsistency and unfairness where one instance may receive a ban and another of the same add-on being overlooked. Failure to provide a comprehensive list and guideline will only be seen as consent to use whatever the player wishes whenever they wish. You can not have it both ways devs, you can't provide such a vague list and "reserve the right" to wield the banhammer.
Som Boty
Super Mother Fan Club
#310 - 2016-02-25 16:37:34 UTC
Daugan wrote:
https://www.themittani.com/news/three-developers-depart-ccp-games



okay, well its official. the dev in charge of supporting third party apps is out. so i think we all have our answer.
Chekov Nikahd
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#311 - 2016-02-25 18:27:57 UTC
Som Boty wrote:
this is why i now have 5/15 accounts unsubbed now, sold four characters, and have taken down 1 of my wormholes.

Im just going to keep going until they either respond or until I've turned off all of my accounts.


Contract your stuff to Chekov Nikahd, he'll know what to do with it.
Som Boty
Super Mother Fan Club
#312 - 2016-02-25 18:34:44 UTC
Chekov Nikahd wrote:
Som Boty wrote:
this is why i now have 5/15 accounts unsubbed now, sold four characters, and have taken down 1 of my wormholes.

Im just going to keep going until they either respond or until I've turned off all of my accounts.


Contract your stuff to Chekov Nikahd, he'll know what to do with it.


no way im ever giving up my space bux. im going the way of the pharaohs, party in tomb tonight bois!
Lando Cenvax
The Nose Picker Clown Group
#313 - 2016-02-25 20:22:43 UTC
Didn't read all comments, so this might have been discussed already...:

Merging multiple EVE Windows' information into a e.g. an overlay is obviously not acceptable. CCP should consider here that simply using more screens (or high-res-screens) achieves a similar result. Athough not everyone can afford said multi-screen setups. So I wouldn't swing the ban-hammer because of that... Just my 2 cents...

Also, as an IT admin myself, I completely disagree with the policy of "frequently changing very complex passwords". This, frankly, only makes sense in very very few scenarios. Let me briefly elaborate why:

  • complex passwords: only make sense against bruteforce and dictionary attacks. These attacks are only possible if the servers are configured wrongly (speaking of lack of tarpiting and/or account login attempt limitation)
  • frequently changing: only makes sense if someone logs in from untrusted environment (keyloggers!). (At your own machine run a decent AV and adwscanner frequently. Don't install crapware. Always use "advanced settings" when installing "freeware".)
Conclusion: if both of the above is the case, the answer is still not "frequently changing very complex passwords", but 2 step auth. Which is in place.
By asking the players chars name when entering from an unknown IP a (cheap) 2 step auth process is already active in the old launcher. I didn't try the new launcher yet, but with real 2 step auth this security beyond online banking. Even this forum uses strong security (TLS 1.2 with AES 256). If that isn't enough, what is? (Considering this is still an MMO)
Memphis Baas
#314 - 2016-02-25 20:46:59 UTC
Alissa Solette wrote:
What about gaming hardware?

1. Is it a bannable offense to have a single button on your G15 keyboard activate two or three modules at a time?
2. Or overheat only 2 high slots instead of the entire rack?
3. Where is the limit of whats allowed when it comes to specialized gaming periphery?

I can answer that, actually:

1. Yes it's bannable.
2. Yes that's bannable too.
3. The limit is this: 1 keypress = 1 action.

I used to have to press Ctrl-Shift-E to engage drones, now I press G3. That's allowed.
Pressing G3 to activate all hardeners = bannable.
Pressing G3 to emulate a single mouse click = allowed.
Pressing G3 to send a wall of text to Jita local chat, so you can scam with text and links to your contracts = bannable.

There is a grey area, though: You can fully control the EVE UI with just the keyboard. You can set focus to the Overview, arrow down till you select your target, then press the target lock key. Can be done with a non-programmable keyboard.

If you do it with the mouse, it's one keypress: Ctrl-click on the target in the overview locks it. So the grey area is this: would a G15 macro that does [overview focus], down arrow, down arrow, down arrow, down arrow, ctrl-click be illegal?
Archibald Thistlewaite III
The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners
#315 - 2016-02-25 20:57:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Archibald Thistlewaite III
Memphis Baas wrote:
Alissa Solette wrote:
What about gaming hardware?

1. Is it a bannable offense to have a single button on your G15 keyboard activate two or three modules at a time?
2. Or overheat only 2 high slots instead of the entire rack?
3. Where is the limit of whats allowed when it comes to specialized gaming periphery?

I can answer that, actually:

1. Yes it's bannable.
2. Yes that's bannable too.
3. The limit is this: 1 keypress = 1 action.

I used to have to press Ctrl-Shift-E to engage drones, now I press G3. That's allowed.
Pressing G3 to activate all hardeners = bannable.
Pressing G3 to emulate a single mouse click = allowed.
Pressing G3 to send a wall of text to Jita local chat, so you can scam with text and links to your contracts = bannable.

There is a grey area, though: You can fully control the EVE UI with just the keyboard. You can set focus to the Overview, arrow down till you select your target, then press the target lock key. Can be done with a non-programmable keyboard.

If you do it with the mouse, it's one keypress: Ctrl-click on the target in the overview locks it. So the grey area is this: would a G15 macro that does [overview focus], down arrow, down arrow, down arrow, down arrow, ctrl-click be illegal?


2. Is fine, you can overheat any individual modules you want just using the ingame shortcuts. Not sure what the default is, but for me its alt-F1 to overheat the module in the F1 position, then alt-F2 etc.

Edit: Or even use the tiny button on the module icons. I always forget those.

User of 'Bumblefck's Luscious & Luminous Mustachio Wax'

Praal
Bearded BattleBears
#316 - 2016-02-25 21:21:40 UTC
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:
Memphis Baas wrote:
Alissa Solette wrote:
2. Or overheat only 2 high slots instead of the entire rack?

2. Yes that's bannable too.


2. Is fine, you can overheat any individual modules you want just using the ingame shortcuts. Not sure what the default is, but for me its alt-F1 to overheat the module in the F1 position, then alt-F2 etc.


The issue is if you press G5 to overheat high slots 1,3 and 5. Because your 1 keypress (G5) presses Alt+F1, Alt+F3 and Alt+F5 for you.
Archibald Thistlewaite III
The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners
#317 - 2016-02-25 21:27:34 UTC
Praal wrote:
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:
Memphis Baas wrote:
Alissa Solette wrote:
2. Or overheat only 2 high slots instead of the entire rack?

2. Yes that's bannable too.


2. Is fine, you can overheat any individual modules you want just using the ingame shortcuts. Not sure what the default is, but for me its alt-F1 to overheat the module in the F1 position, then alt-F2 etc.


The issue is if you press G5 to overheat high slots 1,3 and 5. Because your 1 keypress (G5) presses Alt+F1, Alt+F3 and Alt+F5 for you.


Ah, I missed that from Allissa's original post.

User of 'Bumblefck's Luscious & Luminous Mustachio Wax'

Shadoroth
Space Debris Removal Services
Fortis Et Certus
#318 - 2016-02-25 21:44:14 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:

Pressing G3 to send a wall of text to Jita local chat, so you can scam with text and links to your contracts = bannable.


Ctrl+C bannable. Gotcha.
Kinete Jenius
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#319 - 2016-02-25 21:48:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Kinete Jenius
Proxay wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
[quote=Catt Stevens][quote=Lucas Kell] but if you get picked up by their analysis as having done anything bad you'll get banned, but we know full well that there's a lot of legitimate gameplay that will look just like illegitimate gameplay. Again I point out that this is OK, but this is not OK..


Your examples are correct.
The second example allows multiple clients to be controlled from a single application focus, without needing to bring each individual full game client to the front of your screen.
You can tile the windows in the first example, but you need to very precisely sequentially click through them in that exact order to execute orders on the clients. After one round of click-throughs, you need to spend several seconds/a minute re-layering each window in the right focus order in order to repeat this cycle again. This is simply unmanageable and useless outside of travelling around/non-active gameplay.
Going back to your second example, it allows all those clients to be managed without this hassle, and more actively and beyond what most players have access to do.

See this? This is the kind of **** that shouldn't be possible in EVE, it allows one player to control 11 Algos' in PVP simultaneously, allowing for outcomes that shouldn't be possible.
Scale this up to larger entities, you have players deploying a dozen dreads from one player using 3rd Party Client Management tools to control all of them far more efficiently than if they had to click through each of the clients one-by-one.
I've managed up to 4 clients simultaneously without 3rd party tools for Escalations and general EVE stuff (one hauling, links, pvp ship, something sitting idle) - it's hard to actively manage more than 2 clients at once using Windowed Mode.

I don't believe that CCP ever intended for a single player to control 11 accounts simultaneously in active PVP, try doing this kind of thing without ISBoxer or other tools that allow clients to be overlaid and pinned on top of each other in a way that allows interaction with each, without Windows adjusting forward focus/on top layering of the currently selected window.
You're being deliberately dense if you can't see that clear distinction between these things (using what they provide, and modifying the usage of their client through 3rd party apps), but you're even denser if you can't see that it's tied to a massive post about RMTing.

They're giving a heads up to people using ISBoxer to print ISK all day in whatever way they do, for RMTing purposes. After this heads up it's ban-town folks. The Stormtrooper dude with his 11 Algos isn't their target or focus, they don't really care about that guy, he's an anomaly. They care about those printing isk all day and want to have a rule to point to when they ban those accounts.
It's not hard to run multiple clients. Here I am running 12 on two machines with three total monitors.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZ4LByLY5T4

My current setup has 10 of the clients tiled on one machine.

OTA ticks are now around 6 minutes (5:50-6:10)
NMC ticks are now around 7 minutes
NCO ticks are also around 7 minutes

I cannot see the algos link but I think I know who you're talking about and he just uses drone assist with a primary DDD. It's almost trivial to do.


I could get fancy and use the OS features that focus on hover and other things to prevent even having to click through the clients. Windows 10 itself has some nifty features for doing such things. I don't have to arrange the cap bar to be visible as watchlist does that well enough for my activities.
Koenig Yazria
Adversity.
Snuffed Out
#320 - 2016-02-25 21:54:53 UTC
Another day without dearly needed clarifications.

Well done.