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Worries about the skill injectors, and the future of the game.

First post
Author
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#341 - 2016-02-24 15:32:49 UTC
Ellen Sukarla wrote:
This has prbably been brought up in this threadnaught but I watch character bazaar a lot and it is very disturbing seeing all these characters stripped down to 5.5m sp. I love CCP but even as a die hard fan this skill injector thing is killing the game for me, its just so against the game. Anyway I just posted this so hopefully someone at CCP looks at character bazaar and sees just how many characters are stripped.


So its breaking your game that other people characters that they dont use and you dont own are being harvested for SP?

What a weird idea of game you have.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#342 - 2016-02-24 15:35:54 UTC
Nat Silverguard wrote:
Pandora Bokks wrote:


Do not get me wrong, every player contributes to the success of the game, whether he plays for free or pays for the sub.
But from a financial perspective, you are a second class customer if you do not spend money on the product.



what a load of crap. so, would "1st" class customers buy PLEX to sell for isk if nobody buys it? Roll

as an occasional PLEX seller, all subscribers are important and all are equal, there's no "1st" or "2nd" class


TBH, people who pay for their accounts by buying PLEX from the market rather than spending real money are giving CCP more money by proxy than someone who subscribes with their own RL cash.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#343 - 2016-02-24 15:41:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
secuutus wrote:
So buffing new players is ccp's strategy to keep new players playing longer, but what about old players ? What do i get when reach 10 years ? Big smile


More new players to play with.

I bet i can count on my fingers and toes the number of people who have used injectors to drastically terraform a character.

They are great for new players who are willing to put a bit of commitment into the game.

The abyss between old and new characters is daunting, and at least giving people an avenue to somewhat overcome that abyss is a ray of sunshine for players who otherwise would be 13 years behind the curve. These players certainly do not have the isk to make a huge injection, and even less likely willing to throw 20k USD into a massive ground up character build.

The people who have injected a lot of SP are rare and their impact on the game is zero beyond bruising a surprisingly large number of egos here.

The people who embrace the option to advance their character a little quicker when they have a spare 700m isk are common, but once a char hits 80m SP the use injectors is so punitive and the characters ability fairly well established that the incentive to inject more SP will be minimal.

Even then, a character with 80m SP still has a very long way to go. Telling that to a new player with 500,000 SP before injectors was always a depressing conversation.
Catt Stevens
Karusaka Family
#344 - 2016-02-24 15:42:20 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Demolishar wrote:
Almost 3000 words. A pity that your great work will be locked for ranting soon.


I don't really think this is a rant to be honest, and many of these points were discussed internally before the feature went live, or was fully fleshed out. ....


AMEN brother. That is exactly what its all about!

Skill Books and Levels does not equate to 'Skill' of flying a ship. I tell you that from first hand experience of my first Tengu loss.
Pandora Bokks
Pangalactic Frontline Supply Agency
Externa Group
#345 - 2016-02-24 16:09:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Pandora Bokks
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
TBH, people who pay for their accounts by buying PLEX from the market rather than spending real money are giving CCP more money by proxy than someone who subscribes with their own RL cash.


No, they do not give money by proxy, I have never given proxy to anyone to give my money to CCP - instead they build demand within the game mechanisms for a virtual item that can be used as a substitute for a subscription. If I buy a Plex with my cash it goes directly to CCP, no matter whether I sell it for ISK, use it for gametime or trash it. From perspective of someone who buys PLEX for RL money it makes no difference whether CCP gives him the ISK directly, a player exchanges the PLEX for ISK or a NPC buys it to for ISK. In any case he pays xx $ and receives yy ISK.

The contribution to CCP profit of a F2Player is of indirect nature - player count (marketing), ingame content, (...), generation of demand for PLEX in the ingame market and such important for the game as it is. But he does not "pay for his subscription with someone elses money"- this is simply not true and will not become true by being constantly repeated. He is allowed to play for free because he adds functionality/content/advertising potential to the game.
Alissa Solette
Emergency Exit
#346 - 2016-02-24 16:15:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Alissa Solette
Tristan Agion wrote:
Alissa Solette wrote:
Sure, ISK and SP alone will not win you fights but for all the talk in this thread, they do certainly help a great deal. For example, one of the golden rules of EVE is "never fly anything you can't afford to lose" but what does that mean if some people can replace any losses with RL money while other people can’t afford this option? Just because someone lives in a country/economy with a currency that is weak towards the dollar and euro they should be at a disadvantage? How is that in any way fair?

CCP is a business, not a charity, and in general provides better services to customers that pay them more. That seems "fair" to me in the usual way that all capitalism is "fair", i.e., "you get what you pay for" (more or less).

There are good reasons to keep "pay for an advantage" limited, even from a business perspective (if people feel too disadvantaged, they leave, which may be a bigger loss than the gain from other people paying a premium). But there is no real business reason to keep the playing field entirely level. That might be nice ideology, but it does not optimise the bottom line.


I'm sure from the point of view of an economist this kind of mentality makes sense.

The big difference between CCP and most other gaming companies used to be that they actually cared about something other then the bottom line - such as providing a unique game experience with a harsh death penalty and other aspects that certainly are not helpful if the goal is simply to maximize profits. I'd wager that EVE would never have become the great game that it is now if the economists had been in control of the game during the first 5-7 years of development (basically before the whole Incarna and greed is good fiasco). If the goal had been to maximize profits then we'd have gotten WOW-in-space, STO or some other crappy mainstream title that's dumbed down enough to cater to the masses. The fact that this mistake wasn't made is the reason why EVE will be turning 13 this year and hasn't totally gone to the dogs.

I simply think that moving towards such a profit-oriented mentality will cause way more harm then good (not just for the game but also for the shareholders of CCP).
Decoe DeTouront
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#347 - 2016-02-24 16:40:10 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Demolishar wrote:
Almost 3000 words. A pity that your great work will be locked for ranting soon.


I don't really think this is a rant to be honest, and many of these points were discussed internally before the feature went live, or was fully fleshed out.

I've also been with EVE for 13 years, ironically my first reaction to skillpoint trading was negative too, but it was a knee-jerk reaction from a 13 year veteran of the game who thought a change so fundamental would destroy everything he loved about EVE.

I'm happy to say that I was wrong, and after I looked at the situation from what I consider to be a sensible point of view that came after my initial reaction, the rationale for it kind of fell into place and I now understand the system.

There's a simple flaw with any "Pay To Win" argument against skill trading.

A pilot who knows what they're doing with a Rifter and a 2 skillpoints can end the world for a clueless player with 300 million skillpoints. Put the average driver in an F1 car and they're not going to have the first idea of how to drive it, despite having a driver's license.

All skillpoints do is unlock the ability to fly a given hull with a given weapon, or utilize a given module to a particular end. Using the ship and modules is where the skill lies, and is the key to victory or failure. That's what defines you as an EVE player.

Being able to trade skillpoints and freely respec your character changes very little. What it does is allow people to keep their gameplay fresh and try new things, or gives new players a leg up to be able to try new things faster if they choose to do so.

That's my take on it anyway, as a 13 year vet of EVE.

Smile


And what about the miner, trader, howler, explorer, inventor, scouts and all the other guys who had to WAIT! for their perfect skills to be efficient or even able to do the business? Will they keep their advantages against P2W newbies too? EVE is NOT only PVP! You often forget this. And that's the biggest issue! Newbies do not need Skillpoints they'll never can effort without real money in the beginning. They'll need something they can do while they are learning all about the complexity of eve.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#348 - 2016-02-24 17:09:50 UTC
Decoe DeTouront wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Demolishar wrote:
Almost 3000 words. A pity that your great work will be locked for ranting soon.


I don't really think this is a rant to be honest, and many of these points were discussed internally before the feature went live, or was fully fleshed out.

I've also been with EVE for 13 years, ironically my first reaction to skillpoint trading was negative too, but it was a knee-jerk reaction from a 13 year veteran of the game who thought a change so fundamental would destroy everything he loved about EVE.

I'm happy to say that I was wrong, and after I looked at the situation from what I consider to be a sensible point of view that came after my initial reaction, the rationale for it kind of fell into place and I now understand the system.

There's a simple flaw with any "Pay To Win" argument against skill trading.

A pilot who knows what they're doing with a Rifter and a 2 skillpoints can end the world for a clueless player with 300 million skillpoints. Put the average driver in an F1 car and they're not going to have the first idea of how to drive it, despite having a driver's license.

All skillpoints do is unlock the ability to fly a given hull with a given weapon, or utilize a given module to a particular end. Using the ship and modules is where the skill lies, and is the key to victory or failure. That's what defines you as an EVE player.

Being able to trade skillpoints and freely respec your character changes very little. What it does is allow people to keep their gameplay fresh and try new things, or gives new players a leg up to be able to try new things faster if they choose to do so.

That's my take on it anyway, as a 13 year vet of EVE.

Smile


And what about the miner, trader, howler, explorer, inventor, scouts and all the other guys who had to WAIT! for their perfect skills to be efficient or even able to do the business? Will they keep their advantages against P2W newbies too? EVE is NOT only PVP! You often forget this. And that's the biggest issue! Newbies do not need Skillpoints they'll never can effort without real money in the beginning. They'll need something they can do while they are learning all about the complexity of eve.


Trading, exploring, hauling etc, all have pvp elements to them. So yes, that makes them PvP. You are competing against another player when exploring sites. You need to scan it, run it before them, or risk being killed in a site because they want it more.

Market PvP is real, and you are trying to get your items to sell. So is someone else. .1 isking is still pvp. Just not with guns.

Scouts don't need SP, they're literally scouts in throw away ships most of the time. If you wanted a dedicated cloaky scout It wasn't really hard to throw an alt in the cooker for a week or 2 to get them into a stealth bomber. Now it will just take a day and some isk or real money to do it. I see no issue here.

Haulers can be ganked by players, so still pvp. Its still player interaction, and player vs player. Even if one player doesn't want it.

I'm not sure where you're finding in EVE where you don't have to PvP. Even ship spinning can be competitive with other players if you want it to be.

All in all, it just seems you're mad because you might have more competition in selling/creating items than before. This is a good thing.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#349 - 2016-02-24 17:24:28 UTC
Pandora Bokks wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
TBH, people who pay for their accounts by buying PLEX from the market rather than spending real money are giving CCP more money by proxy than someone who subscribes with their own RL cash.


No, they do not give money by proxy, I have never given proxy to anyone to give my money to CCP - instead they build demand within the game mechanisms for a virtual item that can be used as a substitute for a subscription. If I buy a Plex with my cash it goes directly to CCP, no matter whether I sell it for ISK, use it for gametime or trash it. From perspective of someone who buys PLEX for RL money it makes no difference whether CCP gives him the ISK directly, a player exchanges the PLEX for ISK or a NPC buys it to for ISK. In any case he pays xx $ and receives yy ISK.

The contribution to CCP profit of a F2Player is of indirect nature - player count (marketing), ingame content, (...), generation of demand for PLEX in the ingame market and such important for the game as it is. But he does not "pay for his subscription with someone elses money"- this is simply not true and will not become true by being constantly repeated. He is allowed to play for free because he adds functionality/content/advertising potential to the game.


People who buy PLEX in game for isk generate demand for people to buy PLEX out of game for cash. Their cash pays for your subscription. Therefore, they pay your subscription by proxy.

It would make a major market difference if CCP simply gave people ISK for cash rather than a PLEX. If they gave ISK, it would change from being an ISK neutral transaction that doesnt generate anything beyond player activity, to a massive ISK faucet.

There is no F2P in EVE. Its just you dont seem to, or at least seem determined to not understand EVEs multiple payment methods.

Your understanding resides inside a bubble that contains only you. Inside that bubble you are correct. But thats not something to be proud of.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#350 - 2016-02-24 17:33:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
The issue for me is simply this:

Every man and his dog will just inject the skills they need to fly the most effective ship types, the lead up time for player training will have gone, making it a bit boring, the only good part of all of this will be that the deepest pockets will be able to retrain their pilots faster, though it is a good way to remove all those vast ISK reserves that certain alliances have. One impact will be a veritable flood of BLOP's and cloaky campers in null as everyone and their dog trains into them because that is the perfect low risk PvP for the gank type mentality of this game.

Now I understand the reasons for doing it, for example I kept on saying that the issue was never new players as such, but keeping those that were 6 months to 2 years old interested, and I think skill injectors will help in that. The negative side is that it annoys older players who took a long time to train skills.

Looking at the future the easy supply of SP will dry up and it will be interesting to see how this market develops with people farming with characters in +5's.

Anyway good luck, I am not going to be subbed after 5th March, but I can assure you that I am not leaving because of SP trading, its just that I have nothing left to prove within my own capabilities and possibilities within this game based on its design. Also to play it properly I need two accounts and I am playing other games now, so I cannot justify two accounts and I am not prepared to grind plex, so its good bye from me.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Pandora Bokks
Pangalactic Frontline Supply Agency
Externa Group
#351 - 2016-02-24 19:02:16 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:


There is no F2P in EVE. Its just you dont seem to, or at least seem determined to not understand EVEs multiple payment methods.



I think I full understand the mechanism, as you do. I just do not pretend to pay for a game when someone else does this for me.
And if I say pay, I mean give money in exchange for server access and content. As always, the perspective matters.

"It is not free because someone else has paid for" is just not an argument in my opinion - this would be true for every pure F2P game as alsways "someone else" pays for development, infrastructure, running cost - eiter by microtransactions or by buying advertisement space or by donations.
Tristan Agion
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#352 - 2016-02-24 19:49:52 UTC
Daniela Doran wrote:
Tristan Agion wrote:
Can you point to anything that in practice has gotten worse in playing EVE for you since the advent of skill injectors? Have you even managed to spot a single "insta-gratifying scrub" (your words) in game by what they do to you, to the environment or to others?

The only practical thing that you are reporting here is that your own dedication to EVE has waned. ...

Not the case at all because I was clearly enjoying this game until that 2nd skill trading Devblog got posted. I still played even then thinking to myself "surely CCP is trolling here and won't really do something this stupid".......sigh, how little I knew. As soon as it went live, all enthusiasm I had for this game plummeted because I know when a MMO subscription base game reaches this stage (pay2win) it's the beginning of the end.

You didn't answer my questions. So let me answer them for you: the changes that other players injecting SP have so far brought to the game are so marginal that you cannot really point to anything significant, and nobody you have encountered in game so far has by their behaviour betrayed that they have injected SP. The one and only thing that you can point to that has drastically changed in EVE since the introduction of SP trading is your own attitude to the game and CCP.

Who knows, your dire predictions of doom and gloom may indeed come true some day. But there simply is little sign of that yet. SP trading has had remarkably little impact on EVE so far, at least at the level of actual game play. I'm sure there are lots of rearrangements going on in the armies of alts that people command. But by and large this seems to result mostly in "streamlining" what people do anyhow. I'm sure that a lot of people jumped over some skill barrier or the other and added some new ship and activity to their EVE portfolio. But I have not heard any reports of any one ship or activity suddenly being overrun by hordes of SP junkies. I'm sure that a lot of people added some fitting skill or the other, and upgraded the meta on their favourite fit. But I have not heard of thousands of newbies crowding space with capital ships flown cluelessly. Perhaps the single most significant game-wide impact one could have expected was on PLEX price. Yet even the PLEX price does not show movement beyond what we were already used to.

It's a bit early to make predictions about the final impact all this will have. And perhaps we are now all corrupted by the stain of greed as opposed to the previous virtuous purity of Jita margin trading. Or something. But there is little concrete evidence for major shifts in game play so far. Or at least I have heard nothing that would suggest that, and you are not offering any examples either...
Maizie Fields
Eden Ranch Injector Spa
#353 - 2016-02-24 20:34:06 UTC
Hi everyone, I'm Maizie Fields and I am very excited about skillpoint injectors and the business opportunities that they bring. Through my new company, I look forward to providing the community with a safe and reliable supply of injectors as we move forward into the future of EVE.

Happy injecting!

Thinking of selling? Eden Ranch is now buying characters. Please contact me for an offer!

~

Maizie Fields, Chief Injection Officer

Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#354 - 2016-02-24 23:01:32 UTC
Pandora Bokks wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:


There is no F2P in EVE. Its just you dont seem to, or at least seem determined to not understand EVEs multiple payment methods.



I think I full understand the mechanism, as you do. I just do not pretend to pay for a game when someone else does this for me.
And if I say pay, I mean give money in exchange for server access and content. As always, the perspective matters.

"It is not free because someone else has paid for" is just not an argument in my opinion - this would be true for every pure F2P game as alsways "someone else" pays for development, infrastructure, running cost - eiter by microtransactions or by buying advertisement space or by donations.


The game is payed for, for us all. There are a couple of methods to achieve this. They all end in the same result. Game time..
Alissa Solette
Emergency Exit
#355 - 2016-02-25 12:41:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Alissa Solette
CCP Falcon wrote:
...and after I looked at the situation from what I consider to be a sensible point of view that came after my initial reaction, the rationale for it kind of fell into place and I now understand the system.


If the intended function of injectors is to give newbies a way to catch up, how exactly does CCP plan for the newbies to afford injectors? 600+ mil is an insane amount of ISK for virtually all newbies and even for some vets.

So respectfully, dear CCP Falcon, please walk me through the steps that a new player would take in your opinion to make use of this feature if his/her goal were to "catch up" with older characters in any meaningful way. Just for sake of argument lets assume that the new player is living in Belarus and is earning 700$ a month.

Did anyone at CCP ever think this through? Did you, personally?

Also, on the one hand you claim that skill points are not very important when it comes to being successful in EVE (you use this argument to persuade us that this feature is not pay-to-win) but the skill injector mechanic makes gaining new skills extremely expensive. How does this fit together exactly? If skills are unimportant, why should anybody be willing to pay such a high price for them (both RL-money wise for extractors as well as in-game wise for injectors)? Isn't this a total contradiction? Either SP are a worthwhile investment and it's justified for people to pay huge sums for them (in which case selling SP for RL-money, however indirectly, is clearly very close to directly selling in-game power) or SP are not worthwhile in which case I wonder why people should either stay subbed to the game for 10 years to train SP or be willing to pay large amounts of money for them.
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
#356 - 2016-02-25 12:56:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Nat Silverguard
Alissa Solette wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
...and after I looked at the situation from what I consider to be a sensible point of view that came after my initial reaction, the rationale for it kind of fell into place and I now understand the system.


If the intended function of injectors is to give newbies a way to catch up, how exactly does CCP plan for the newbies to afford injectors? 600+ mil is an insane amount of ISK for virtually all newbies and even for some vets.

So respectfully, dear CCP Falcon, please walk me through the steps that a new player would take in your opinion to make use of this feature if his/her goal were to "catch up" with older characters in any meaningful way. Just for sake of argument lets assume that the new player is living in Belarus and is earning 700$ a month.

Did anyone at CCP ever think this through?


OMG dude, here you are again, over thinking waaaay too much.

this maybe for newbros but not for 1 to 2 day newbros or else more Agent Moon will happen. imho this is geared towards 10M SP newbros who already know a little bit about the game.

having this expensive price is actually good imo as it will act as a "safeguard" and discourage to "unnecessary" over spending.

Just Add Water

Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
#357 - 2016-02-25 13:28:26 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Nat Silverguard wrote:
Pandora Bokks wrote:


Do not get me wrong, every player contributes to the success of the game, whether he plays for free or pays for the sub.
But from a financial perspective, you are a second class customer if you do not spend money on the product.



what a load of crap. so, would "1st" class customers buy PLEX to sell for isk if nobody buys it? Roll

as an occasional PLEX seller, all subscribers are important and all are equal, there's no "1st" or "2nd" class


TBH, people who pay for their accounts by buying PLEX from the market rather than spending real money are giving CCP more money by proxy than someone who subscribes with their own RL cash.


ah yeah, PLEX is more expensive than direct sub, i forgot about that.

so if im CCP i would rather want PLEX sales to increase than direct subs.




Pandora Bokks wrote:

I think I full understand the mechanism, as you do. I just do not pretend to pay for a game when someone else does this for me.
And if I say pay, I mean give money in exchange for server access and content. As always, the perspective matters.

"It is not free because someone else has paid for" is just not an argument in my opinion - this would be true for every pure F2P game as alsways "someone else" pays for development, infrastructure, running cost - eiter by microtransactions or by buying advertisement space or by donations.


you are one of those clueless people that think time =/= money eh?

anyway, the fact of matter is your "2nd" class customers are making CCP earn more and that PLEX is a good mechanism to decrease RMT.

Just Add Water

Crystal Liche
ACME Mineral and Gas
#358 - 2016-02-25 17:58:19 UTC
18 pages and for what?

Nothing has changed, you could always sell plex bought with rl cash to buy ships and purchase premade chars with rl cash.

If anyone was worried about pay to win, you are years too late, people have been able to buy everything with cash for years.
d0cTeR9
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#359 - 2016-02-25 18:39:16 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Demolishar wrote:
Almost 3000 words. A pity that your great work will be locked for ranting soon.


I don't really think this is a rant to be honest, and many of these points were discussed internally before the feature went live, or was fully fleshed out.

I've also been with EVE for 13 years, ironically my first reaction to skillpoint trading was negative too, but it was a knee-jerk reaction from a 13 year veteran of the game who thought a change so fundamental would destroy everything he loved about EVE.

I'm happy to say that I was wrong, and after I looked at the situation from what I consider to be a sensible point of view that came after my initial reaction, the rationale for it kind of fell into place and I now understand the system.

There's a simple flaw with any "Pay To Win" argument against skill trading.

A pilot who knows what they're doing with a Rifter and a 2 skillpoints can end the world for a clueless player with 300 million skillpoints. Put the average driver in an F1 car and they're not going to have the first idea of how to drive it, despite having a driver's license.

All skillpoints do is unlock the ability to fly a given hull with a given weapon, or utilize a given module to a particular end. Using the ship and modules is where the skill lies, and is the key to victory or failure. That's what defines you as an EVE player.

Being able to trade skillpoints and freely respec your character changes very little. What it does is allow people to keep their gameplay fresh and try new things, or gives new players a leg up to be able to try new things faster if they choose to do so.

That's my take on it anyway, as a 13 year vet of EVE.

Smile


Right there with yah bud. Been around in one shape or form since beta EVE so many years ago and I agree with you 100%.

Been around since the beginning.

Reiisha
#360 - 2016-02-25 18:44:46 UTC
And still people are ignoring the other 75% of my post.

I'm not sure whether i should have less faith in CCP or the community at this point :/

If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...