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Worries about the skill injectors, and the future of the game.

First post
Author
Glathull
Warlock Assassins
#301 - 2016-02-23 08:19:48 UTC
sero Hita wrote:
Kblackjack54 wrote:
Doubt Falcon has been brainwashed, He's just doing his job, Following the party line to ensure he keeps it.

Enjoyed reading the initial thread starter lengthy as it was, a fair potted history of Eve warts an all from that players vantage point.

Glathull is correct in almost everything he states except for one not so minor issue I have with his post, That of were the money raised by Extractors sold be CCP may be going.

Since Darkness crashed and burned in such a spectacular fashion CCP has been struggling with an ageing product that is expensive to run and difficult to extract more dollars from, Numbers employed on Eve have been cut and it's doubtful new talent will be employed in favour of the current outsourcing trend, A quick glance at there vacancies is rather telling.

The Dev's probably spend more time these days designing out source contract specs rather than in game ones out of an original ideas pot.

How Extractors will or will not effect Eve in the long term is something most of us will not be around to see, you either love the concept or you don't and there are many that will find them that one step to far by CCP, My own view is a simple one, I don't agree with them, I believe CCP is not being honest with players over this matter and would suggest if you feel the same then don't engage with the idea, if you do however then don't complain when you find yourself shut out of various aspects of the game behind as one poster put it, a credit card barrier.


Well, I kinda see SP trading as CCPs way to avoid the credit card barrier right now tbh. not a slippery slope. They need money , and could have implemented so many much worse models. They tried skins first but it probably did not bring in enough. So they did SP trading. This is pretty harmless for increasing income imo. If it leads to a better game, fine. If not one always can leave.



Very much this. Of all the different strategies for CCP to bring in more cash, this one is by far the one with the smallest impact for the game as a whole. Yet because it provides a tangible sense of benefit to individuals, I suspect it will be very successful. If CCP takes the money and spends it elsewhere, okay, fine. It's a business and can do what it needs to. I don't care. I actually like EvE online as it is right now quite a lot. And I'm excited about the roadmap. If it starts to suck for me due to neglect, then I won't play anymore.

But I still think that some of the new revenue will get reinvested back into EvE. When something makes a lot of money for you, you tend to put more effort into it, not less. So I see the skill injection maneuver as a way for the EvE team to make a business case to the company leadership that says, "Look. This is working. Give us more resources, and we can do even more."

I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon

Anthar Thebess
#302 - 2016-02-23 09:58:45 UTC
I don't have any thing against skill trading, the only what worries me are skill point farms that people will create.
50 PI characters or 50 miners that are constantly skill harvested.

People who plex single alt account will have real issue.
Lianara Dayton
Rapid Logistics
#303 - 2016-02-23 10:19:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Lianara Dayton
I'm sorry to say but I 100% agree with the OP. I think skill injectors were a very bad call on CCPs part for all the reasons given by the OP and many other people in this thread.

I think CCP should immediately take steps to remove skill injectors again (or at the very least severely limit their use) without totally screwing over people that already hold large stocks of extractors or injectors. No idea how that's supposed to work but that's one of the reasons why I've paid about 4'000$ in subscription fees the last 10 years, so CCP can build a competent team to deal with these kind of things.

Here are my views in greater detail, in case you care:


Initially, I was actually quite happy about skill injectors (for purely egotistic reasons). They allowed me to drop a considerable amount of my ISK-reserves (that I hadn't actually touched in years) and spend them on advancing my characters.

However, having played EVE for over 10 years I basically already had all skills that were relevant - the injectors mainly allowed me to ODC stuff up by perfecting certain skill categories. Even before the injectors I basically didn't care about SP anymore and now (after finishing off the few "holes" in my skills) I'm even less interested in them. This means that (from a purely subscription point of view) CCP has lost 3 loyal accounts and replaced them with 3 accounts that will only be active and training when I actually intend to actively play EVE (which was at most 20% of the time in the last 10 years - the other 80% of that time I was only subscribed to continue training while playing other games or travelling).

So basically CCP went from a subscription model to a "front-loaded payment model" like most free-to-plays have: they want to motivate customers to start the game, drop a few hundred dollars on the game, play a while and then quit again. From a profit point of view this can make sense - especially if the developers of the game do not expect it to be able to retain players on a long-term basis.

So how should I interpret this change that CCP implemented? Is CCP doubtful that their game will be able to retain players (and attract new ones) in the coming years and are therefor taking steps to "cash out" as quickly as possible before they let the game die? If not, why implement such a short-term, front-loaded payment model?

A further aspect is the entire pay-to-win thing: EVE already was dangerously close to being pay-to-win by legally selling ISK in the form of PLEX. This allowed people with lots of RL cash to more or less directly buy power in the game (because lets be honest, having lots of ISK is a huge advantage in EVE and opens doors within minutes that other people take literally years to reach).

Now that you can not only buy ISK but also buy skills this pushes the game even more into the realm of pay-to-win. Any one-day-newbie willing to drop a few thousand dollars on PLEX and then buy injectors will basically be able to get as many skill points as they want. This was demonstrated fairly nicely by that guy that made a new character and then dropped 1,7 trillion ISK on injectors and thereby gave his character maxed skills (441 million SP). Sure, the costs of buying PLEX worth 1,7 trillion is pretty damn high (prohibitive to most people) but that's sort of the problem: if you have lots of money in real life then you can basically buy a custom-made character with perfect skills and zero time and effort. This is pretty much the very definition of pay-to-win.

I find it totally laughable (and frankly insulting) that CCP claims that this mechanism is anything other then pay-to-win... sure, you can either spend 20 years (no exaggeration) training skills or you can drop a few thousand dollars to get the same thing in 5 minutes... if that's not pay-to-win then I really don't know what is...

A further aspect is that EVE used to be a game where grinding was not as important (at least not long-term grinding) as most MMOs because there was no gear-threadmill as such that you had to thread to remain competitive. Now, with the introduction of skill injectors, anyone not willing to invest large sums of RL money to buy skill injectors will be forced to thread the mill and earn ISK to buy injectors in the hopes of remaining competitive that way. And sure, you might say "well, any amount of skills above about 150mil will not have any great influence on your performance and will only increase your versatility" (and you'd be correct up to a point) but if it's easily possible to attain skills quickly via injectors then any sufficiently "elite" corps or alliances will not have much understanding for people that have a small amount of SP. Example: when I joined my first "serious" PVP corp the requirement was 40mil SP. That used to be a fairly decent number of SP. Nowadays the same corp will likely require you to have 60mil SP to join. And now with skill injectors that number of minimum SP is likely to increase massively. Not having 100mil SP is now basically your own fault because you didn't spend the last two years grinding ISK and buying SP (or dropping 500$ on PLEX for skill injectors).

Personally I find this a very VERY bad development for a game like EVE. It's gone from a mostly grind-free experience to a situation where SP-proliferation will force anyone who wants to play EVE on a serious level to grind their asses off to maintain their relative SP-level or compensate their lack of grinding with RL money. That's exactly the same thing as if you could login to an MMO like WOW, drop a few hundred dollars and get your full epic set (or you can quit your job and grind your ass off instead). Oh what fun... NOT.

Basically the only ones that will profit from this development will be CCP thanks to PLEX sales.

(continued in next post)

Lianara Dayton, Society for Peace and Unity

Lianara Dayton
Rapid Logistics
#304 - 2016-02-23 10:20:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Lianara Dayton
(continuation of previous post)

If the idea of this feature was to either allow for "respeccing" or to allow low-SP-characters to catch up then this feature failed dismally.

If providing a respeccing-mechanism was the goal then CCP could simply sell us a skill-redistribution token that removes 5mil SP from your character and allows you to re-inject the 5mil SP into other skills (but not allow you to trade those SP to other characters).

And if the idea is to allow people with less then 20, 50 or 80mil SP to catch up quicker then they could simply increase the SP-gain per hour by 1000% until 20mil SP, 500% until 50mil SP and 200% until 80mil SP. Sure, CCP wouldn't be earning horrendous amounts of cash from PLEX sales to rich people but if the goal is to provide a means to catch up then that's beside the point.

And that's exactly my point: it mainly benefits CCP and not the players.

I really don't know which genius came up with this idea... frankly it sounds like "greed is good" all over again.

This really destroys my trust in CCP as a company - it just feels like a short-term cash grab that a company like CCP would never have considered up to a a few years ago...

I really hope CCP realizes how bad this feature is and attempts to fix the situation ASAP. Otherwise I (for the first time since starting to play EVE) am seriously worried about the future of my favorite MMO.


Edit:

I just wanted to quote this sentence from the beginning of this thread because it's very accurate in my opinion:

Quote:
I would of never developed the patience if I knew there were other players around me buying their way there. It was satisfying to know everybody got to this point by time.


Seems to be a thing of the past now - and a notion completely lost on the people at CCP.

Straight

Lianara Dayton, Society for Peace and Unity

sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#305 - 2016-02-23 10:59:42 UTC  |  Edited by: sero Hita
Lianara Dayton wrote:
I'm sorry to say but I 100% agree with the OP. I think skill injectors were a very bad call on CCPs part for all the reasons given by the OP and many other people in this thread.

I think CCP should immediately take steps to remove skill injectors again (or at the very least severely limit their use) without totally screwing over people that already hold large stocks of extractors or injectors. No idea how that's supposed to work but that's one of the reasons why I've paid about 4'000$ in subscription fees the last 10 years, so CCP can build a competent team to deal with these kind of things.

If they remove or limit the use of skill injectors, what would you suggest they do to increase income instead?
Everyone knows this is to increase gain, which is okay. My take is that the community kinda forced CCP into claiming it is to help newbies, which it in some cases would and in others not. If they had said it was to increase profit (Which again is what companies does), the forums would be spammed by the "greed is good" tards.

"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker

Lianara Dayton
Rapid Logistics
#306 - 2016-02-23 11:04:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Lianara Dayton
sero Hita wrote:
If they remove or limit the use of skill injectors, what would you suggest they do to increase income instead?
Everyone knows this is to increase gain, which is okay. My take is that the community kinda forced CCP into claiming it is to help newbies, which it in some cases would and in others not. If they had said it was to increase profit (Which again is what companies does), the forums would be spammed by the "greed is good" tards.


I think pretty much any solution is better then implementing more pay-to-win features (or if you want to lie to yourself you can also call them "pay-to-get-a-huge-advantage" or "pay-to-save-a-few-years-time" or whatever you want to call buying power in a computer game with RL money).

How about upping the subscription fees if that means keeping the game free of pay-to-win?

I have no problem at all about dropping large sums of money on EVE (I've had 3 active accounts for many years now and they're also not exactly free) and it's obvious that there are many other people that share this sentiment - otherwise PLEX sales wouldn't be such a huge source of income for CCP, right?

My point is that it would be better to charge everyone 1 or 2$ more per month and account and then spread the "advantage" of this extra cash fairly around among all customers (the advantage being that CCP has enough money to continue development) then by trying to motivate the rich people to finance the game but in return provide them with extreme advantages that most regular people can't afford.

I also don't find the notion so outlandish that CCPs operating- and development costs have increased in the last 13 years. My employer also increased my wages a few times in the last 13 years because of rising prices. Why shouldn't I be willing to extend that logic to CCPs operation and therefor be willing to pay them a bit more then I did back in 2005 when I first started?

Lianara Dayton, Society for Peace and Unity

Sneaky Little Bastard
Doomheim
#307 - 2016-02-23 11:06:59 UTC
Lianara Dayton wrote:
I'm sorry to say but I 100% agree with the OP.


And I totally agree with you. But "it's too late"... Doomheim time for my characters as my sub is ending now.
Time to move on ! o7
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#308 - 2016-02-23 11:17:58 UTC
Lianara Dayton wrote:


I think pretty much any solution is better then implementing more pay-to-win features (or if you want to lie to yourself you can also call them "pay-to-get-a-huge-advantage").

How about upping the subscription fees if that means keeping the game free of pay-to-win?

I have no problem at all about dropping large sums of money on EVE (I've had 3 active accounts for many years) and it's obvious that there are many other people that share this sentiment - otherwise PLEX sales wouldn't be such a huge source of income for CCP, right?

My point is that it would be better to charge everyone 1 or 2$ more per month and account and spreading the "advantage" of this extra cash fairly around among all customers (the advantage being that CCP has enough money to continue development) then by motivating the rich people to finance the game but in return provide them with extreme advantages that most regular people can't afford.


I see your point, but we do not know if 1 to 2 $ would suffice. Plus people are pretty allergic to subscriptions generally these days. I have no data to support this statement, but the prevalence of free2play these days, could indicate this might be true. Increasing the subsscription, in a time where the mentality is it should be free to play, might not work out the way you think. Plus this would hit unequally. The older richer players probably PLEX. So someone else has to pay their 1 to 2 $.

Like I have said, this seems mainly to be a problem for older players. I have played for two years and am not injecting. I am used to there are people with much more SP around me, and I don't have trained all the roles I want yet. But it will come. In the mean time I am still earning enough to do what i enjoy in EVE. SP training has not changed this. I think you are overestimating the effect at little bit.

And just a PSA, suggesting a roll-back of anything is super counterproductive. CCP will of course not do this, and neither should they Imo.

"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker

Henry Plantgenet
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#309 - 2016-02-23 11:23:42 UTC
If you don't like it vote for a CSM that has a standpoint against them....
Really suprising that the Incarna riots haven't come along yet because wasn't that about something similar?
the NEX store turning into something for Real money -> skill extractors -> skill injectors.
instead of just vanity items.
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#310 - 2016-02-23 11:27:59 UTC
Henry Plantgenet wrote:
If you don't like it vote for a CSM that has a standpoint against them....
Really suprising that the Incarna riots haven't come along yet because wasn't that about something similar?
the NEX store turning into something for Real money -> skill extractors -> skill injectors.
instead of just vanity items.

wasn't it real pay2win with pay for better gold ammo?

I think most people (outside of the forums) are pretty neutral about this, which is why you see no riots.

"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker

Lianara Dayton
Rapid Logistics
#311 - 2016-02-23 12:21:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Lianara Dayton
sero Hita wrote:
Like I have said, this seems mainly to be a problem for older players. I have played for two years and am not injecting. I am used to there are people with much more SP around me, and I don't have trained all the roles I want yet. But it will come. In the mean time I am still earning enough to do what i enjoy in EVE. SP training has not changed this. I think you are overestimating the effect at little bit.


Look at it from the point of view of a recruiter for a corp that considers itself to be above average (not to even mention the ones that consider themselves to be "elite PVPers"): you get an application from some character that has been playing since 2005 and has 140mil SP and a second application by a character from 2005 with only 80mil SP. Why should I even consider allowing the pleb with 80mil SP to join? By the recruiters logic he's clearly not committed to the game enough. If he were then he wouldn't "just" have spent those 10 years training his character but he would have been grinding ISK and could now afford to inject himself with skills until he reaches a decent number of SP (or he would be committed to the game and rich enough to simply buy those "missing" SP).

My point is that SP-requirements are subjective. If you get 50 applications a month then you'll very quickly start filtering applications by SP and anyone who doesn't work hard enough (in the eyes of the recruiter) is basically not worth having as a member.

Before skill injectors you would have been considered just as committed to game, no matter if you had 100mil SP, 80mil SP or 60mil SP - you simply joined the game later. But what's the "excuse" for anybody to have less then 80mil SP now? Clearly they are lazy plebs that don't invest enough time into EVE and/or are poor in RL, meaning they have to work a lot in RL and are therefor undesirable members of a "serious" EVE corp. (And, yes, yes, of course I know this representation of EVE reality is somewhat exaggerated - I'm just trying to demonstrate my point.)

On the other hand if you get an application by a 3 year old character with 100mil SP then you instantly know that this person is either rich enough to drop huge sums of money on EVE or has massive amounts of time to grind ISK and "power level" that way (ugh, that word alone makes me want to puke). Those are the kind of people you want in your "uber elite PVP corp", not some uncommitted low-SP quack, trust me.

Now please note that I do NOT share this view of things. I personally think that SP is overrated when it comes to recruiting but it's still a fact that many people will start to think exactly in those terms.

And sure you can say "well if they don't accept me because of my "low" SP then they're not worth playing with in the first place" but that's again just an excuse so you don't have to acknowledge that more and more doors are being locked behind a massive grind-wall or (worse) a pay-wall.

sero Hita wrote:

And just a PSA, suggesting a roll-back of anything is super counterproductive. CCP will of course not do this, and neither should they Imo.


Why? They as good as rolled-back Incarna by puking it into the game and then never mentioning it again (let alone investing the time and money to turn it into anything other then an excuse for their crappy monocles).

When I say "roll-back" then I'm obviously aware that they can't literally "roll-back" the game to a point where the injectors didn't exist yet.

But in my opinion they need to implement some kind of limits on the number of SP you can get from injectors. Even some very liberal limit like 10% of your current SP would help (so if you have 50mil SP that you earned by training then you can't inject more then 5mil SP and if you have 100mil SP earned by training then you can inject 10mil SP etc.). At least that would prevent people from turning a 0-day-character into a 441mil SP char within 5 minutes...


Glathull wrote:

I actually like EvE online as it is right now quite a lot. And I'm excited about the roadmap. If it starts to suck for me due to neglect, then I won't play anymore.


But that's exactly the problem mate. They just implemented a payment system that tries to motivate you to drop as much cash as possible on the game RIGHT NOW. If they can get you to buy 20 PLEX and then in 3 months the game starts sucking then you've already paid for the equivalent of 20 months of game time. That's the beauty of what I call "front-loaded" payment models.

A company that is serious about providing a long-term game and that tries to retain its players to secure its income via a subscription is far less inclinded to screw its customers over because then - as you say - they'll simply stop paying. But if you already got their 1, 2 or 5 years worth of subscription fees in the form of PLEX then you suddenly don't have to worry too much about retaining players. And traditionally that's not worked out too well for pretty much every game that transitioned from a subscription model to a front-loaded free-to-play-type model.


Sure, it's possible that I'm overreacting here and you're obviously under no obligation to give a damn about anything I have to say but I still think that this new front-loaded payment model is not something that will help such a long-term and slow-paced game as EVE Online.

For us players it will cause an even bigger gap between old and new players and introduce a new kind of gap between (real life) rich and poor players (even more then PLEX to ISK conversion already has).

For CCP it will also cause false incentives to implement features that allow them to earn more and more money from their players as quickly as possible in a "front loaded" manner so in case the game goes down the tubes in 2 years and everyone quits their subscription then at least they'll have earned as much as possible along the way.

Lianara Dayton, Society for Peace and Unity

Tristan Agion
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#312 - 2016-02-23 12:41:51 UTC
sero Hita wrote:
I think most people (outside of the forums) are pretty neutral about this, which is why you see no riots.

The other public forum for EVE, reddit, has been mostly positive about this change. And while reddit is not official, I have the impression that it pulls at least as much weight with CCP concerning "player opinion".

Personally, I think the extractor pricing is obscene with CCP effectively more than doubling the injector cost. This gives the lie to CCP's claim that this is primarily for "new players". It is just "premium account" pricing in disguise.

An easy improvement would be to make extractors a rare (but not too rare) drop in some site or the other. Or to put blueprints in the game with some difficult production process. They could still keep on selling them in the store... but we could then get them directly in game, instead of going the circuitous grind ISK, ISK to PLEX, PLEX to AUR route.

Other than that, it's all good and gives some measure of hope when staring at months and months of a training queue.

I also hope though that CCP completely lifts the "50 skills in queue" limit. There is no conceivable technical reason for that, and it drives me nuts having to add skills one by one every few days or so... Let me design my skill plan as far into the future as I want, why ever not?
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#313 - 2016-02-23 12:56:58 UTC  |  Edited by: sero Hita
Lianara Dayton wrote:

Look at it from the point of view of a recruiter for a corp that considers itself to be above average (not to even mention the ones that consider themselves to be "elite PVPers"): you get an application from some character that has been playing since 2005 and has 140mil SP and a second application by a character from 2005 with only 80mil SP. Why should I even consider allowing the pleb with 80mil SP to join? By the recruiters logic he's clearly not committed to the game enough. If he were then he wouldn't "just" have spent those 10 years training his character but he would have been grinding ISK and could now afford to inject himself with skills until he reaches a decent number of SP (or he would be committed to the game and rich enough to simply buy those "missing" SP).

My point is that SP-requirements are subjective. If you get 50 applications a month then you'll very quickly start filtering applications by SP and anyone who doesn't work hard enough (in the eyes of the recruiter) is basically not worth having as a member.

Before skill injectors you would have been considered committed to game just as much if you had 100mil SP as if you had 80 or 60mil SP - you simply joined the game later. But what's the "excuse" for anybody to have less then 80mil SP now? Clearly they are lazy plebs that don't invest enough time into EVE and/or are poor in RL, meaning they have to work a lot in RL and are therefor undesirable members of a "serious" EVE corp. (And, yes, yes, of course I know this representation of EVE reality is somewhat exaggerated - I'm just trying to demonstrate my point.)



Your posts are one big hyperbole. And you start of by making a weird assumption on behalf of recruiters, commitment=SP. I don't accept this assumption. First off the elite recruiter just as much looks on killboards, and chemistry during the interview. And your assumption that it is an disadvantage to not be allowed into a niche corp (elite), is also quite subjective. Another corp will take the player, and the player could have as much, less or more fun than he would in the elite corp. Have you never been rejected by a corp? did it ruin your EVE experience? Your example is exaggerated, and again a special snowflake case.

Tbh. you exaggerate quite a lot, to the point it is hard to take you serious. Your previous stament that it takes 40 years for all skills (which is more like 20years, around 8-10 if you have three specialized alts).And you also claimed it cost a few thousand dollars, but it more like 28 thousand dollars. It means he paid in isk the dollar equivalent of 7 times as much as you claimed that you did over 10 years, for skills he cannot all use at once. He would have gotten more from 3 alts, he multiboxed. The "advantage" means very little on tranquility, due to what I wrote earlier.

and btw. the reason why people disagree on the pay2win argument, is because there are two definitions on these forums. Either A) pay2win is giving money for an in-game advantage B) pay2win is giving money for an in-game advantage you could not achieve without paying. I believe in B, as that is how it was originally coined for another type of games where winning is more easiliy defined. We should not derail with another pay2win discussion though. Just wanted to mention that people don't agree upon what is pay2win, hence all these crappy discussions.

"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker

Tristan Agion
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#314 - 2016-02-23 13:20:07 UTC
Lianara Dayton wrote:
Look at it from the point of view of a recruiter for a corp that considers itself to be above average (not to even mention the ones that consider themselves to be "elite PVPers"): you get an application from some character that has been playing since 2005 and has 140mil SP and a second application by a character from 2005 with only 80mil SP. Why should I even consider allowing the pleb with 80mil SP to join? By the recruiters logic he's clearly not committed to the game enough. If he were then he wouldn't "just" have spent those 10 years training his character but he would have been grinding ISK and could now afford to inject himself with skills until he reaches a decent number of SP (or he would be committed to the game and rich enough to simply buy those "missing" SP).

I completely fail to see the problem here. If a corp in fact expects the kind of "dedication" to the game that results in either grinding the ISK or paying the real cash for 60M SP, then it is clearly not the place to go to for that 80M SP character. That "marriage of convenience" would necessarily break down sooner or later anyhow, as these kind of demands will continue to be imposed by that corp. The 80M SP character clearly would be better off finding a corp that thinks 80M SP since 2005 is perfectly fine. Such a more "casual" corp would be a much better fit.

Of course, in reality a player with 80M SP and a half-decent prior employment record will not have the slightest problem finding a new corp. And most likely good corps rather will be weary about hiring "over-SPed" characters, because they cannot rely on these SP being put to good use by actual playing skill. Furthermore, "elite PVPers" will look more at killboards than at a few million SP more or less in that sort of SP range. But even on its own unrealistic terms, the kind of selection process you outline here is something good, not bad.
MidnightWyvern
The Bosena Accords
#315 - 2016-02-23 13:26:12 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
MidnightWyvern wrote:
stg slate wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Demolishar wrote:
Almost 3000 words. A pity that your great work will be locked for ranting soon.


I don't really think this is a rant to be honest, and many of these points were discussed internally before the feature went live, or was fully fleshed out.

I've also been with EVE for 13 years, ironically my first reaction to skillpoint trading was negative too, but it was a knee-jerk reaction from a 13 year veteran of the game who thought a change so fundamental would destroy everything he loved about EVE.

I'm happy to say that I was wrong, and after I looked at the situation from what I consider to be a sensible point of view that came after my initial reaction, the rationale for it kind of fell into place and I now understand the system.

There's a simple flaw with any "Pay To Win" argument against skill trading.

A pilot who knows what they're doing with a Rifter and a 2 skillpoints can end the world for a clueless player with 300 million skillpoints. Put the average driver in an F1 car and they're not going to have the first idea of how to drive it, despite having a driver's license.

All skillpoints do is unlock the ability to fly a given hull with a given weapon, or utilize a given module to a particular end. Using the ship and modules is where the skill lies, and is the key to victory or failure. That's what defines you as an EVE player.

Being able to trade skillpoints and freely respec your character changes very little. What it does is allow people to keep their gameplay fresh and try new things, or gives new players a leg up to be able to try new things faster if they choose to do so.

That's my take on it anyway, as a 13 year vet of EVE.

Smile


I share a similar sentiment, as a 9ish year player(across various toons/account)

As do I, at 7 years and with two characters.

Pro Tip for vets who dont understand skillpoints - download EFT and check how skillpoints affect EHP, cap usage, cap totals, range tracking speed damage output, damage mitigation................ lots of dots because the list is huge, this apart from the ability to pilot a ship and fit mods :)

And that SP will not save you from not knowing how to fly a ship. Skill bonuses do pretty much nothing unless you know how to fit to utilize them and correctly operate your modules.

Rattati Senpai noticed us! See you in the next FPS!

Alts: Saray Wyvern, Mobius Wyvern (Dust 514)

Lianara Dayton
Rapid Logistics
#316 - 2016-02-23 13:36:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Lianara Dayton
I stand corrected on the 20 years - must have had that saved wrong in my brain.

However, it's the principle of the matter that disturbs me. I don't see how the fact that it costs 28k dollars to save 20 years makes the situation any better then if it were 20k dollars to save 40 years or 30k to save 15 years. Sure, it means that fewer people will be able to make use of this possibility but it doesn't make it any less problematic in principle (in fact, the fewer people have that possibility, the more unfair it is to the average player).

Also, you still can spend 2000-3000 dollars to save two or three years time and that's not that unrealistic depending on your financial situation so I don't think this changes the problem on any fundamental level.

And on the recruitment thing: sure this is hyperbole. I said so in my post. I'm just trying to point out that this change will do absolutely nothing to "close the gap" between new and old players (the supposedly intended function of this feature) - on the contrary. Players that are well established in EVE will be able to widen the gap even further by not being restricted by training time (or at least, much less so then before skill injectors). The same goes for people that are willing and able to drop large sums of money on the game. If you don't belong to either of those groups then skill injectors will not be of any advantage to you.

If that kind of unfairness is required to keep this game alive financially then frankly it might be better off to die a nobel death as the last subscription based game instead of selling out and sliding down the slippery slope that leads to the pay-to-win pits with all the other cash grabs out there. I always thought EVE and CCP were better then that.

Also, if you think that implementing skill injectors now will be the limit and after that CCP will say "ok, that's all the money we have to work with and we won't implement any new pay-to-win features next time our profits are failing to keep pace" then you're pretty naive. I'm concerned that this change will open the flood-gates on any number of new "pay only" features that will be implemented next time CCP is not doing so well.

And on the pay-to-win thing: just because it's theoretically possible to attain every goal without paying RL money doesn't make a game any less pay-to-win if the amount of effort, time or luck required to attain the goals as a "free" player are prohibitive. By your definition nothing is ever pay-to-win as long as there is a 1 in 50 billion chance to get the item for free that any other player would use their credit card for. I agree we're not there yet in the case of EVE but any step towards that situation is definitely a bad thing in my opinion. If we, as players, don't put a stop to that tendency now then the step from skill injectors to gold-ammo may be a lot shorter then you think.

Anyway, I hope you are right and I'm wrong because personally I'd be very happy if EVE goes on for many more years (with or without skill injectors).

Lianara Dayton, Society for Peace and Unity

Rod Blaine
Evolution
Northern Coalition.
#317 - 2016-02-23 18:48:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Rod Blaine
To me, sp injecting, character trading, aurum, plexes and before that at the very beginning: time code for isk trades are all about one core question: should real life time spent on making real life cash be treated differently from game time spent on making game cash as far as it being a determinant for acces to gameplay options is concerned?

All that the OP's argument really comes down to is the opinion that for some reason, any gamer that chooses to spend more time in the game should be rewarded by more possibilities in the game world. I've however never yet heard a valid argument as to why that should be so. Apart from it being a gaming tradition.


Instead, I believe that time is the real currency, and that differentiating between any RL currency and game currency is pretty much arbitrary, not to mention out of place in a game like Eve, that is as much defined by it's oog play as it's ig play.



Personally, I'd say there's serious merit in an argument for restraining the transfer of RL inequalities to the game world. However, it seems that CCP are of a more liberal persuasion than I, and choose not to put any restraints on their RMT mechanics at all. But even if CCP chose to do so, it would make much more sense to limit isk buying than SP buying, since isk is much more of a factor in ingame power
Memphis Baas
#318 - 2016-02-23 19:10:50 UTC
Lianara Dayton wrote:
If that kind of unfairness is required to keep this game alive financially then frankly it might be better off to die a nobel death as the last subscription based game instead of selling out and sliding down the slippery slope that leads to the pay-to-win pits with all the other cash grabs out there.


There's lots of dramatic in that statement. Can you qualify exactly who would benefit from this game dying a noble death? Clearly the devs will lose their jobs, so that's no good for them. Players would move to other games, but they / we can do that right now, so that's a no change. Who the hell benefits?
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#319 - 2016-02-23 21:15:07 UTC
Rod Blaine wrote:

All that the OP's argument really comes down to is the opinion that for some reason, any gamer that chooses to spend more time in the game should be rewarded by more possibilities in the game world. I've however never yet heard a valid argument as to why that should be so. Apart from it being a gaming tradition.


1 Valid argument. We can no longer gauge the rough SP level of a player by its DOB.

Game.

Broken.

Roll
Ellen Sukarla
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#320 - 2016-02-23 22:03:56 UTC
This has prbably been brought up in this threadnaught but I watch character bazaar a lot and it is very disturbing seeing all these characters stripped down to 5.5m sp. I love CCP but even as a die hard fan this skill injector thing is killing the game for me, its just so against the game. Anyway I just posted this so hopefully someone at CCP looks at character bazaar and sees just how many characters are stripped.