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Worries about the skill injectors, and the future of the game.

First post
Author
Dyllan Ma'tar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#321 - 2016-02-23 22:06:21 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Rod Blaine wrote:

All that the OP's argument really comes down to is the opinion that for some reason, any gamer that chooses to spend more time in the game should be rewarded by more possibilities in the game world. I've however never yet heard a valid argument as to why that should be so. Apart from it being a gaming tradition.


1 Valid argument. We can no longer gauge the rough SP level of a player by its DOB.

Game.

Broken.

Roll


Speaking of injectors, ya'll got any of them injectors?
stg slate
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#322 - 2016-02-23 22:24:47 UTC
Ellen Sukarla wrote:
This has prbably been brought up in this threadnaught but I watch character bazaar a lot and it is very disturbing seeing all these characters stripped down to 5.5m sp. I love CCP but even as a die hard fan this skill injector thing is killing the game for me, its just so against the game. Anyway I just posted this so hopefully someone at CCP looks at character bazaar and sees just how many characters are stripped.


They probably look at it often and might even be at half-mast over the sight of so many extractors bought.

Money fight!
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#323 - 2016-02-23 22:47:24 UTC
Ellen Sukarla wrote:
This has prbably been brought up in this threadnaught but I watch character bazaar a lot and it is very disturbing seeing all these characters stripped down to 5.5m sp. I love CCP but even as a die hard fan this skill injector thing is killing the game for me, its just so against the game. Anyway I just posted this so hopefully someone at CCP looks at character bazaar and sees just how many characters are stripped.
Are you a character seller or buyer?

I ask because I don't know of anyone not heavily invested in that area who would consider the game killed because of characters there being stripped of SP.
Cixi
#324 - 2016-02-23 23:54:57 UTC
Ellen Sukarla wrote:
This has prbably been brought up in this threadnaught but I watch character bazaar a lot and it is very disturbing seeing all these characters stripped down to 5.5m sp. I love CCP but even as a die hard fan this skill injector thing is killing the game for me, its just so against the game. Anyway I just posted this so hopefully someone at CCP looks at character bazaar and sees just how many characters are stripped.


Why is it disturbing ? if they are being stripped it's maybe because they were not really interesting characters to begin with... If you have a sentimental attachment to a character then don't sell it in the first place.

If you want to sell a character to make money then you should seriously consider extracting SP instead, because 1/ you will probably not make more by selling it directly 2/ you have to pay extra for the transfer
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
#325 - 2016-02-24 03:41:14 UTC
Pandora Bokks wrote:


Do not get me wrong, every player contributes to the success of the game, whether he plays for free or pays for the sub.
But from a financial perspective, you are a second class customer if you do not spend money on the product.



what a load of crap. so, would "1st" class customers buy PLEX to sell for isk if nobody buys it? Roll

as an occasional PLEX seller, all subscribers are important and all are equal, there's no "1st" or "2nd" class

Just Add Water

Alea
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#326 - 2016-02-24 03:47:49 UTC
sero Hita wrote:
Geronimo McVain wrote:

If you don't want skill injectors to be a success the community!!!! will just have to stop selling them. The "problem" is not CCP but the players. That's the way of EVE and CCP stuck to it.


but don't complain then if they implement an even crappier income model, in that case.


I would think that since this pay to win scheme was a success there will be more blatant schemes to follow to pull in new players to replace the ones who get bored of being able to do everything the first week of game play then leave to do something that's more of a challenge.

Whomever is making the last few years decisions on what changes are to be implemented in this game, must hate Eve with all their being.

Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#327 - 2016-02-24 04:22:37 UTC
I'm afraid even these kind of thread won't be enough give CCP a clue on how dumbfoundingly stupid this SP trading feature is. These guys have clearly lost their vision on what Eve was and have given in to mankind's greatest weakness......GREED.

It's now too late trying to convince those greedy clueless imbeciles that this feature will completely wreck this game in the long term because they lack foresight. They can only see the NOW benefits and anything beyond 3-6 months is CCP rolling the dice. But who knows, they may get lucky and attract a new breed of scrub players willing to pay them a fortune to be able to fly that Titan that they've had wet dreams about flying until now.

One thing I can say for certain is that this game's player base is gonna change from the long-time loyalist into the insta-gratifying scrubs. And CCP is gambling that the insta-gratifying scrubs are gonna make them rich overnight and make up the lost of income from the long-time loyalist that wises up and quit this game. As Falcon has stated, "time will tell".

Personally I'm hoping CCP fail in this gamble and that this game gets wiped out of existence because they've become too greedy and arrogant. CCP thinks that they can control the player base to go along with whatever they desire because to them, the player base are their livestock, not respective costumers.

Before the SP trading change (when the game was still called Eve), I was playing this game at least 40 hours on 6 clients a week. Now I play it for maybe 2 hours on 2 clients a week (for PVP only). When that experience ends (and it will very soon), then I shall depart from this game forever (DoomHeim Style).
Corvald Tyrska
Valknetra
#328 - 2016-02-24 04:46:47 UTC
People keep claiming injectors are pay to win but stop and look at this statement in detail for a minute. What exactly are you claiming to win with skill points? From a PVE perspective you could theoretically run missions, anoms, incursions faster but to what point? To gain ISK faster? You can already buy that with Plex. And you can gain ISK faster than any of those PVE ways by playing the market.

From a PVP perspective, in EVE with two relatively equally knowledgeable players who have the same ability and experience then the higher skill point character, on paper, has an advantage over the other. Outside of carefully orchestrated duels that engagement almost never will happen in game. PVP is generally random and you do not often have the ability to choose in detail the level of skill of your opponent.

It doesn't matter how many skill points you have, or how many expensive modules are on your ship, PVP will be decided by the player who is more experienced and skilled at playing the game every single time. Many fights are decided before both targets have even locked each other simply due to the rock, paper, scissors nature of many fits, especially the cookie-cutter ones. Ability and knowledge will always beat ISK and skill points. Go read about all the players losing full faction fit battleships over the years to frigates. I guarantee that having perfect skills on those battleship pilots would not have prevented those losses.

Skill points and ISK are not a measure ability in this game and having either or both in abundance will not in any way ensure that you will "win".

As for the arguments about corps requiring skill point levels be achieved regardless of age, most players are better off not being accepted to a corp full of such elitist tools and finding a decent corp who actually want to have fun instead.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#329 - 2016-02-24 04:47:57 UTC
Daniela Doran wrote:

Personally I'm hoping CCP fail in this gamble and that this game gets wiped out of existence because they've become too greedy and arrogant. CCP thinks that they can control the player base to go along with whatever they desire because to them, the player base are their livestock, not respective costumers.


Then quit. Vote with our wallet. Go. Get lost. Unsub. Good bye. Leave. Get out. Get the **** out. Etc.

Oh, can I have your stuff.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
#330 - 2016-02-24 05:11:44 UTC
yeah I must confess ccp has really messed this one up under estimating the people with the isk gotten by

scamming/market manipulation/ years of incursion running/ isboxing/ alliance running and plex buyers

that I have seen those that have maxed out every skill with make my 10 years fairly a waste of time of training to reach such goals
that was suppose to take years to reach is now done just as soon as you either drop the ISK or dump your credit card

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith

Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#331 - 2016-02-24 05:43:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniela Doran
Teckos Pech wrote:
Daniela Doran wrote:

Personally I'm hoping CCP fail in this gamble and that this game gets wiped out of existence because they've become too greedy and arrogant. CCP thinks that they can control the player base to go along with whatever they desire because to them, the player base are their livestock, not respective costumers.


Then quit. Vote with our wallet. Go. Get lost. Unsub. Good bye. Leave. Get out. Get the **** out. Etc.

Oh, can I have your stuff.

Are you gonna refund me the money that I've already paid CCP 2 months ago?? Didn't think so, so shut the hell up. I'll quit when I feel like it. But I'll definitely quit within the time frame of my remaining sub time in the next 4 months, so keep your panties on dear.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#332 - 2016-02-24 06:16:02 UTC
Daniela Doran wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Daniela Doran wrote:

Personally I'm hoping CCP fail in this gamble and that this game gets wiped out of existence because they've become too greedy and arrogant. CCP thinks that they can control the player base to go along with whatever they desire because to them, the player base are their livestock, not respective costumers.


Then quit. Vote with our wallet. Go. Get lost. Unsub. Good bye. Leave. Get out. Get the **** out. Etc.

Oh, can I have your stuff.

Are you gonna refund me the money that I've already paid CCP 2 months ago?? Didn't think so, so shut the hell up. I'll quit when I feel like it. But I'll definitely quit within the time frame of my remaining sub time in the next 4 months, so keep your panties on dear.


No, that is your problem. You knew this was coming. If you spent that money then you were a fool.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#333 - 2016-02-24 07:40:14 UTC
Daniela Doran wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Daniela Doran wrote:

Personally I'm hoping CCP fail in this gamble and that this game gets wiped out of existence because they've become too greedy and arrogant. CCP thinks that they can control the player base to go along with whatever they desire because to them, the player base are their livestock, not respective costumers.


Then quit. Vote with our wallet. Go. Get lost. Unsub. Good bye. Leave. Get out. Get the **** out. Etc.

Oh, can I have your stuff.

Are you gonna refund me the money that I've already paid CCP 2 months ago??
He might not, but I will.

In fact, I'll double anything you convert to PLEX and contract to me as a show of good faith.

Mr Epeen Cool
Tristan Agion
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#334 - 2016-02-24 08:38:24 UTC
Daniela Doran wrote:
Before the SP trading change (when the game was still called Eve), I was playing this game at least 40 hours on 6 clients a week. Now I play it for maybe 2 hours on 2 clients a week (for PVP only). When that experience ends (and it will very soon), then I shall depart from this game forever (DoomHeim Style).

Can you point to anything that in practice has gotten worse in playing EVE for you since the advent of skill injectors? Have you even managed to spot a single "insta-gratifying scrub" (your words) in game by what they do to you, to the environment or to others?

The only practical thing that you are reporting here is that your own dedication to EVE has waned. That's fine, of course, and understandable: playing anything for 40 hours a week is likely to eventually burn it out for you.

Perhaps you simply needed a break and have found a convenient excuse here. That sounds a lot more plausible than swarms of "insta-gratifying scrubs" (your words) actually ruining your gaming experience by committing nefarious yet curiously unspecified deeds...
Alissa Solette
Emergency Exit
#335 - 2016-02-24 12:13:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Alissa Solette
What disturbs me most about all forms of RMT in EVE is the fact that it brings RL-inequality into the game. It's simply no longer a level playing field if you can buy advantages with real life funds.

Sure, ISK and SP alone will not win you fights but for all the talk in this thread, they do certainly help a great deal. For example, one of the golden rules of EVE is "never fly anything you can't afford to lose" but what does that mean if some people can replace any losses with RL money while other people can’t afford this option? Just because someone lives in a country/economy with a currency that is weak towards the dollar and euro they should be at a disadvantage? How is that in any way fair?

So if two players with the same level of player skill and the same amount of time for EVE both play the game but one of them can afford to drop 1000 dollars extra per year on a second account, PLEX or injectors then that player will clearly have an advantage over the other player. Does this mean that the poorer player will never be able to compete with the richer player? Certainly not. EVE is a complex game and most fights are not won by who has more ISK or SP. But if you for example can afford to put a faction point on your ship and not care if you lose it (because you can replace it as often as you like by selling PLEX) and the other player can only do that one or two times before running out of ISK and being forced to spend their time grinding ISK then that does seem pretty damn unfair. It gets even more unfair if the rich player can also afford a second subscription with a links alt with perfect skills and a perfectly kitted links ship. Sure, it still won't ensure that the richer player will win but it definitely stacks the odds in the richer persons favour. And in case the richer player happens to lose then he can simply re-buy everything with PLEX and even re-train the subsystem skill that he lost on his link alt ,instantly. I thought the skill loss in tech 3 ships was implemented so you can't simply spam t3 ships... Now you can spam them without any problem as long as you're able to afford it.

I don't understand how this RMT stuff is an advantage for anyone involved (expect CCP who is earning more money on RMT). For the richer player it devalues his victory because anyone can claim that he only won thanks to his extra funds (which translates into the ability to field more expensive gear in riskier situations, better implants, links alts etc.) and for the poorer player it reduces the chance of being successful without investing more time in the game then the rich person (or becoming rich themselves and spending an equal amount on EVE).

This kind of thing just doesn't sit well with me at all.

A subscription-based game should provide a level playing field for all subscribers and not allow RL-inequality to influence the game.

And this is coming from someone who was lucky enough to be born in a rich country and who has a good job and enough RL-money. But I still find it wrong that these facts should influence my EVE experience in any way (except perhaps buying a skin for a ship or other such cosmetic details that don't increase my chance of success).

This kind of RMT cheapens the game experience if you know that you can simply pull out your credit card and compensate for in-game mistakes or outright incompetence with RL-cash (especially when many other people don’t have that option). This is only worse for a global game like EVE that pitches people from rich countries with people from poor countries against each other. At least in games like World of Tanks or WOW there are different servers with different pricing (because people in Russia simply earn less per month then people in EU – especially if you consider currency exchange rates). The only way to prevent this inequality is to remove the possibility to buy advantages in-game with out-of-game funds.

Legal ISK-buying is bad enough, buying skills just serves to amplify the inequality even further.

A bad move CCP. Cry
secuutus
No Trespassing
Boom Labs Inc
#336 - 2016-02-24 12:26:02 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Demolishar wrote:
Almost 3000 words. A pity that your great work will be locked for ranting soon.


I don't really think this is a rant to be honest, and many of these points were discussed internally before the feature went live, or was fully fleshed out.

I've also been with EVE for 13 years, ironically my first reaction to skillpoint trading was negative too, but it was a knee-jerk reaction from a 13 year veteran of the game who thought a change so fundamental would destroy everything he loved about EVE........ etc


That's my take on it anyway, as a 13 year vet of EVE.

Smile


Agreed it wasn't a rant, and agreed skills don't = skilled

So buffing new players is ccp's strategy to keep new players playing longer, but what about old players ? What do i get when reach 10 years ? Big smile
Lady Moonrise
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#337 - 2016-02-24 12:56:11 UTC
secuutus wrote:

So buffing new players is ccp's strategy to keep new players playing longer, but what about old players ? What do i get when reach 10 years ? Big smile


N O T H I N G !
Tristan Agion
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#338 - 2016-02-24 12:59:46 UTC
Alissa Solette wrote:
Sure, ISK and SP alone will not win you fights but for all the talk in this thread, they do certainly help a great deal. For example, one of the golden rules of EVE is "never fly anything you can't afford to lose" but what does that mean if some people can replace any losses with RL money while other people can’t afford this option? Just because someone lives in a country/economy with a currency that is weak towards the dollar and euro they should be at a disadvantage? How is that in any way fair?

CCP is a business, not a charity, and in general provides better services to customers that pay them more. That seems "fair" to me in the usual way that all capitalism is "fair", i.e., "you get what you pay for" (more or less).

There are good reasons to keep "pay for an advantage" limited, even from a business perspective (if people feel too disadvantaged, they leave, which may be a bigger loss than the gain from other people paying a premium). But there is no real business reason to keep the playing field entirely level. That might be nice ideology, but it does not optimise the bottom line.
Tristan Agion
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#339 - 2016-02-24 13:10:14 UTC
Lady Moonrise wrote:
secuutus wrote:
So buffing new players is ccp's strategy to keep new players playing longer, but what about old players ? What do i get when reach 10 years ? Big smile
N O T H I N G !

It is hard to understand from a business perspective why CCP is not rewarding people directly for their loyalty to the game. It would be so easy for them to build a reward system with in-game items based on subscription time (the actual time paid for, not the time from toon creation). At the simplest, give everybody a Gecko at every subscription anniversary, and a gold Magnate at their tenth anniversary. Something like that...
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#340 - 2016-02-24 13:16:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniela Doran
Tristan Agion wrote:
Daniela Doran wrote:
Before the SP trading change (when the game was still called Eve), I was playing this game at least 40 hours on 6 clients a week. Now I play it for maybe 2 hours on 2 clients a week (for PVP only). When that experience ends (and it will very soon), then I shall depart from this game forever (DoomHeim Style).

Can you point to anything that in practice has gotten worse in playing EVE for you since the advent of skill injectors? Have you even managed to spot a single "insta-gratifying scrub" (your words) in game by what they do to you, to the environment or to others?

The only practical thing that you are reporting here is that your own dedication to EVE has waned. That's fine, of course, and understandable: playing anything for 40 hours a week is likely to eventually burn it out for you.

Perhaps you simply needed a break and have found a convenient excuse here. That sounds a lot more plausible than swarms of "insta-gratifying scrubs" (your words) actually ruining your gaming experience by committing nefarious yet curiously unspecified deeds...

Not the case at all because I was clearly enjoying this game until that 2nd skill trading Devblog got posted. I still played even then thinking to myself "surely CCP is trolling here and won't really do something this stupid".......sigh, how little I knew. As soon as it went live, all enthusiasm I had for this game plummeted because I know when a MMO subscription base game reaches this stage (pay2win) it's the beginning of the end.