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Walking in stations

First post
Author
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#1641 - 2016-02-16 00:43:11 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Jill Xelitras wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Jill Xelitras wrote:
(...)
fallacy


Oh, come on... Speaking Spanish doesn't favors certain ingame acitvities over others. Thus people who speak Spanish will roughly do the same as people who speak English -everything in the game. That's why the Spanish community (or any language comunity) is a good cross section of the game population.



There are different temperaments, tastes, preferences between groups from different countries (snip)


Now you're being utterly silly. We are talking about EVE players. If you think that being from a certain country changes what a EVE player does in EVE, you'd better bring some evidence.




Another strong finding in this study is that cities from Latin America (Brazil, Costa Rica,
Mexico, El Salvador) and Spain were all above the mean in overall helping, and on average
were more helpful than the other international cities. This difference can be attributed to the
importance of the cultural script of simpatia (in Spanish) or simpatico (in Portuguese) in
Latin American and Hispanic cultures (Rodrigues & Assmar, 1988; Triandis et al., 1984).
These terms, which have no equivalent in English, refer to a range of amiable social quali-
ties—to be friendly, nice, agreeable, and good-natured (i.e., a person who is fun to be with
and pleasant to deal with). Helping strangers is also part of this script. Simpatia and simpa-
tico emphasize prioritizing amiable social behaviors as compared with, for example, empha-
sizing achievement and productivity.
This explanation in terms of simpatia is of course merely suggestive in that it is
correlational. Other explanations are possible. All the simpatia cultures have primarily
Roman Catholic populations. Furthermore, these are societies that are cultures of honor. It is
plausible that cultural traits associated with Roman Catholicism or the friendliness deriva-
tive of honor cultures may be the crucial variable that accounts for the higher rates of helping
among Hispanic cultures.

source: http://www2.psych.ubc.ca/~ara/Manuscripts/Levine%2520et%2520al%2520helping.pdf

We conducted a Procrustes Factors 
Analysis for all scales, including
prevention focus (cautiousness,
dutifulness), self-regulation strength
(impulse control), need for structure,
and self-monitoring ability. For the
personal need for structure scale, the
normative EFA revealed that, as
expected, the 8 items loaded cleanly
onto two factors: desire for structure
and response to lack of structure.
When the cultural samples were
subjected to procrustes rotation, the
identity coefficient for the desire for
structure factor exceeded the .90
cutoff for all 33 countries, but the
identity coefficient for the response to
lack of structure factor only met the
.90 cutoff for 17 countries.


The data showed that 
Southern Asian and Confucian Asian
nations are the tightest (M = 11.69, SD
= 0.62 and M = 8.64, SD = 1.84
respectively) and Eastern European
nations are loosest (M = 3.60, SD =
1.65). Nordic/Germanic European (M
= 6.04, SD = 2.21), Latin European
(M = 5.87, SD = 1.80), Anglo (M =
5.09, SD = 1.30), and Latin American
(M = 4.78, SD = 2.11) nations are in
the mid-range.


source: http://server1.tepper.cmu.edu/Seminars/docs/Gelfand_paper.pdf

No, there are truly no cultural differences ....

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.

Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1642 - 2016-02-16 03:17:55 UTC
oh **** walking in stations

I thought it said walking like egyptians.

nevermind.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#1643 - 2016-02-16 03:23:18 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
oh **** walking in stations
I thought it said walking like egyptians.
nevermind.
Just how drunk are you today?

So:
Jill Xelitras wrote:
Sounds familiar ? The vocal minority that cries louder than the satisfied EvE players ? Hmm ... ?

Jill X says something that supports Chunk's argument and that blows right past and they continue arguing about something irrelevant.

*Sigh*

Get a convo you two.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Indahmawar Fazmarai
#1644 - 2016-02-16 07:59:15 UTC
Jill Xelitras wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Jill Xelitras wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Jill Xelitras wrote:
(...)
fallacy


Oh, come on... Speaking Spanish doesn't favors certain ingame acitvities over others. Thus people who speak Spanish will roughly do the same as people who speak English -everything in the game. That's why the Spanish community (or any language comunity) is a good cross section of the game population.



There are different temperaments, tastes, preferences between groups from different countries (snip)


Now you're being utterly silly. We are talking about EVE players. If you think that being from a certain country changes what a EVE player does in EVE, you'd better bring some evidence.




Another strong finding in this study is that cities from Latin America (Brazil, Costa Rica,
Mexico, El Salvador) and Spain were all above the mean in overall helping, and on average
were more helpful than the other international cities. This difference can be attributed to the
importance of the cultural script of simpatia (in Spanish) or simpatico (in Portuguese) in
Latin American and Hispanic cultures (Rodrigues & Assmar, 1988; Triandis et al., 1984).
These terms, which have no equivalent in English, refer to a range of amiable social quali-
ties—to be friendly, nice, agreeable, and good-natured (i.e., a person who is fun to be with
and pleasant to deal with). Helping strangers is also part of this script. Simpatia and simpa-
tico emphasize prioritizing amiable social behaviors as compared with, for example, empha-
sizing achievement and productivity.
This explanation in terms of simpatia is of course merely suggestive in that it is
correlational. Other explanations are possible. All the simpatia cultures have primarily
Roman Catholic populations. Furthermore, these are societies that are cultures of honor. It is
plausible that cultural traits associated with Roman Catholicism or the friendliness deriva-
tive of honor cultures may be the crucial variable that accounts for the higher rates of helping
among Hispanic cultures.

source: http://www2.psych.ubc.ca/~ara/Manuscripts/Levine%2520et%2520al%2520helping.pdf

We conducted a Procrustes Factors 
Analysis for all scales, including
prevention focus (cautiousness,
dutifulness), self-regulation strength
(impulse control), need for structure,
and self-monitoring ability. For the
personal need for structure scale, the
normative EFA revealed that, as
expected, the 8 items loaded cleanly
onto two factors: desire for structure
and response to lack of structure.
When the cultural samples were
subjected to procrustes rotation, the
identity coefficient for the desire for
structure factor exceeded the .90
cutoff for all 33 countries, but the
identity coefficient for the response to
lack of structure factor only met the
.90 cutoff for 17 countries.


The data showed that 
Southern Asian and Confucian Asian
nations are the tightest (M = 11.69, SD
= 0.62 and M = 8.64, SD = 1.84
respectively) and Eastern European
nations are loosest (M = 3.60, SD =
1.65). Nordic/Germanic European (M
= 6.04, SD = 2.21), Latin European
(M = 5.87, SD = 1.80), Anglo (M =
5.09, SD = 1.30), and Latin American
(M = 4.78, SD = 2.11) nations are in
the mid-range.


source: http://server1.tepper.cmu.edu/Seminars/docs/Gelfand_paper.pdf

No, there are truly no cultural differences ....


And there you go again. Still no evidence that nationality impacts how does a EVE player play EVE (hint: in no meaningful way, according to CCP).

Cultural impacts may mean that the individual chance to become a EVE plaeyr is different in Spain than Russia or the USA. Certainly different nations pick their games in different ways. But there is a long stretch at proving that different natioanlities play the same game in different ways, and let alone when it's a game as open as EVE.

I shall repeat: according to CCP, there are no meaningful national patterns in what players do.

Cultural impacts exist, certainly. This is why there is not, and will never be, a Spanish uberalliance based on language, like "the Russians". Yet that's very different than saying that being Spanish in language means that a player (a individual) will not go to nullsec or there will not be smaller Spanish alliances or Spanish players in non-Spanish alliances. Also language impacts the chances of playing EVE: most people don't speak enough English to bother with unlocalized games. Yet for people who speak Spanish and play EVE, that means no difference: they all feel comfortable enough with English as to wade through the available resources, with help from Spanish speaking veterans.

That is, once anyone from any culture becomes a EVE player, chances are that he does so because of the individual he is, not because of the nation he is.
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
#1645 - 2016-02-16 08:13:25 UTC
Cultural differences are nothing. We have people in the same country murdering themselves for a dime, like in Mexico, like in Syria, like in a bunch of other countries, everyday someone there cant stand other people so much they must destroy them.

And on this accent I hope we will end this dispute about cultural and other differences and get back to pondering about the WIS, and when it will happen, and in what form.

I think the closest we will come will be with the new supposed PC game replacing DUST.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1646 - 2016-02-16 08:15:38 UTC
That's what I'm looking forward to.
Rain6637 wrote:
We're getting WiS and it's called Legion. It's been sneaked under everyone's noses. Huzzah

Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#1647 - 2016-02-16 09:57:20 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:

Cultural impacts may mean that the individual chance to become a EVE plaeyr is different in Spain than Russia or the USA.
Certainly different nations pick their games in different ways.


... and then suddenly, flick of the switch, once EvE is running we shed our cultural and individual differences and behave all exactly in the same way.

Except:
Cultural impacts exist, certainly. This is why there is not, and will never be, a Spanish uberalliance based on language, like "the Russians". 


Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:

But there is a long stretch at proving that different natioanlities play the same game in different ways, and let alone when it's a game as open as EVE.


Americans, Germans, Japanese, French ... all of them have car manufacturers. Cars are all the same: some wheels, an engine, steering wheel ... right ? No different design philosophies, engineering habits ... right ? People all over the world have the same tastes and buying habits ... right ? No Italian design fluff, no american love for pick-up trucks ... right ?

Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:

I shall repeat: according to CCP, there are no meaningful national patterns in what players do.


Sure a miner is a miner, a mission runner is a mission runner and so on.

But does this automatically mean that they don't use different tactics or react the same to outside stimuli ?

Have you ever driven a car in Italy, where red lights are just a suggestion ?
Have you driven a car in Paris, where you better give way to cars with visible scratches ?
Have you driven a car in the Netherlands, where priority is given to bicycles ?

Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:

That is, once anyone from any culture becomes a EVE player, chances are that he does so because of the individual he is, not because of the nation he is.


And the point of the linked studies was that you find more individuals of one kind in one country than in another country. They found helpful people all over the world, but more of them in some countries ...

Do you think that a person who loves interacting with people and another person who hates interacting with people, both change how they react to people whe they start playing EvE ? Even if both start let's say mining ... Don't you think that the first one will end up socializing in some way and the second one isolating himself ?

You now pick one of them at random and say he's the model for how all miners are. But he's not because the other miner is the exact opposite. That's my point: your empirical evidence is skewed. ... and that is before we consider the other statistical fallacy that I pointed out in my other post that you ignored so far (see the Hite vs McKinsey example).

To make it clearer:
In the case of this sociable and isolating miners, CCP says that they didn't find more sociable or more isolating miners. Therefore the degree of sociability doesn't play a role in choice of profession (mining).
It says nothing about how one may prefer mining fleets.
It says nothing about how one uses more voice-comms.
It says nothing about how one writes more to the forum.
It says nothing about how much either of them reads the forum.
It says nothing about how each miner reacts to getting ganked.
... etc.

Statistics: They don't have to be made up or even wrong to be misleading.
Statistics: Where interpretation is as much of a science as actually creating them.
Statistics: They don't lie, but they don't tell all of the truth either.
Statistics: How can you not love statistics ?

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.

Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1648 - 2016-02-16 10:16:45 UTC
I see way too many countries listed for this to not get shut down for politics
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#1649 - 2016-02-16 10:17:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Jill Xelitras
Rain6637 wrote:
That's what I'm looking forward to.
Rain6637 wrote:
We're getting WiS and it's called Legion. It's been sneaked under everyone's noses. Huzzah



That would be *** (walking on planets)
or RoP (running on planets)
... possibly GoP (gunning on planets)

edit: Now I'm curious to know why that specific order of letters warrants being censored.

edit2: "...pejorative slur used to describe..." Ok, I get it.

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.

Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
#1650 - 2016-02-16 10:19:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
Jenshae Chiroptera
#1651 - 2016-02-16 11:45:08 UTC
Jill Xelitras
and
Indahmawar Fazmarai

Please, can you two just wipe your posts and mail each other?
We are not interested and rather you two don't get this thread locked.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1652 - 2016-02-16 11:52:22 UTC
Jill Xelitras wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Yes it was gold ammo and "greed is good". WIS was a bystander that got caught in the stampede.


Also the fact that CCP:

- killed the ship view and replaced it with a static low-res ugly wallpaper for everyone

- some users couldn't run the CQ or at least not without considerable strain on their GPU, which wouldn't have been so much of a problem if the alternative wasn't an ugly wallpaper.

- the way CCP communicated with their players:

-- huge hype
The Fanfast presentations / prototypes showed much more than we ever got.

-- almost nothing to show for (1 very badly lit Minmatar CQ) after 18 months and iirc one dropped expansion out of the usual 6 month expansions

-- marketing going overboard
Remember how project ambulation was renamed Incarna and how CCP celebrated the release of Incarna ... and then see the point above, where "Incarna" is one CQ (or wallpaper) and a closed door ... then go back to the demoed prototypes ... and back to what the Incarna expansion actually looked like ...

Yeah its odd they developed it from scratch. so many tried n tested engines out there. they did a decent job of animation and internals but could have done much more using a proper engine.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Jenshae Chiroptera
#1653 - 2016-02-16 12:23:14 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Yeah its odd they developed it from scratch. so many tried n tested engines out there. they did a decent job of animation and internals but could have done much more using a proper engine.
Probably wanted outright ownership and I don't blame them for that.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Indahmawar Fazmarai
#1654 - 2016-02-16 14:14:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Indahmawar Fazmarai
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Yeah its odd they developed it from scratch. so many tried n tested engines out there. they did a decent job of animation and internals but could have done much more using a proper engine.
Probably wanted outright ownership and I don't blame them for that.


Well, CCP haves a long standing career/habit of reinventing the wheel; probably is a legacy from the Hero Times when they couldn't afford to buy commercial code so they had to code everything themselves in any way they could... giving birth to the Undocumented Python Spaghetti Code Of Doom that used to lie behind most of the game. UPSCOD is the reason why we can't just log out back to the login screen and why POSes are being phased out rather than be modified.

What is sad is that the curent avatar engine in EVE is really good. EVE's avatars are of incredible quality 5 years after being released. Yet this engine is dead; WoD's evolved version was abandoned and EVE's part of the code is just legacy, and probably nobody who worked on it is still in the company.
Pandora Carrollon
Provi Rapid Response
The Watchmen.
#1655 - 2016-02-16 20:32:36 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Sad but true :) 2/3rds of their customers fund the toys for the one third. i love private games companies but their management can sometimes be a little wack. can hear the cries of "EvE is a PvP game and we wont change" as their ideoillogical ship starts sinking soon

the irony of course is its always been primarily PvE funded


What you are calling PvE is input PvP (resources and corps) which has a friendly edge and nobody dies very often for it, but all the large fleet battles are actually done in contest for those input resources and control, which is PvP at the largest concept. CCP Falcon was pretty clear on this but I had to have that pointed out to me before I got that. It was a learning experience so I'm passing it on here.

I like your breaking it up into thirds, because that is probably fairly close to the truth, but it's really: gathering, creation, destruction. In game terms this is: Mining/Salvage, Industry/Research, Combat (read: ships blowing up... lots of them).

When you look at the game this way, and realize that competition exists across that entire spectrum, it's far easier to understand why things are built the way they are and where the balance headaches come into play. CCP is trying to maintain that balance for everyone and one change in on place, especially at the front end or back end can have dramatic issues on the other aspects.

Give them some credit, they are trying to keep the balance and I know from personal game design experience, it's really, really hard and you will never please everyone.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1656 - 2016-02-16 22:53:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
The issues is that we know (have known for years) that PvE is the only actiivity for a majority of players whereas players engaging in PvP at all are in a minority. We even have data from CCP on that respect.

We really don't.

What we have is you wilfully misrepresenting a categorisation of players and their activities that CCP has done specifically to disprove your distorted and falsely dichotomised view of those groups. CCP's data tells pretty much the exact opposite to what you want the data to say.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#1657 - 2016-02-18 02:59:57 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
The issues is that we know (have known for years) that PvE is the only actiivity for a majority of players whereas players engaging in PvP at all are in a minority. We even have data from CCP on that respect.

We really don't.

What we have is you wilfully misrepresenting a categorisation of players and their activities that CCP has done specifically to disprove your distorted and falsely dichotomised view of those groups. CCP's data tells pretty much the exact opposite to what you want the data to say.
Assuming Chunks is right, that still wouldn't matter too much.
Yes, High Sec needs improvement, if only because it is the first impression that new players have of EVE.

However, the dreams are to one day fly a Titan or lead fleet in Null or own a Class 6 worm hole and such. PVP dreams in a PVP centric sandbox.
The people that are here for PVE will never have enough content to keep them happy for more than a few years. Null already has an average account life span of five years.
Just look at how people burn through content on other games.

We could throw in some randomisation and some procedurally created content. Modularise mission components and shuffle them. There are ways to spice things up.

However, I would start by putting new players in a Null Sec like system for an hour or two with a variety of frigates that have modules and the skills to fly them.
Mission 1: Go fight another new player.
No penalties, no losses, nothing goes out to kill boards but for a few hours it is like they are on the test server and can just shoot people.

After that they get teleported to their starting system.

Give them a big juicy bite of the pie so they will want to bake one and get that back again.

@Chunks, try the test server, lose 50 ships. If you mail me I will even give you some half decent fits to try. You might find you have been keeping pure for nothing.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
#1658 - 2016-02-18 09:18:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Freelancer117
Woodman2 wrote:
I was gone from EVE for a couple of years due to my health, I am now back and wondering what happened to walking around in the station? It was the next big thing when I left.

Here is some great info from the CSM assembly hall forums
source: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5079977#post5079977

Regards, a Freelancer

ps: my posts on there are on page 10 Cool

Freelancer117 wrote:

Eve online is a game about meta politics, the null sec shite-lords saw that the company did the following and changed the perception of Ambulation, now known as Walking in Stattions (WiS) to further their cause for Flying in Space (FiS).

Eve online is :

A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online

D) CCP Games Pay to Win at skill leveling, with instant gratification

http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg

http://bit.ly/1egr4mF

Jenshae Chiroptera
#1659 - 2016-02-20 12:05:00 UTC
Reiisha wrote:
But that's not all...

In the past few years, the game hasn't been receiving the love it really needed. In fact, I feel it's been rather neglected in favour of shiny new toys and projects.

Incarna

Think about it. Since the 2011 riots, what has ACTUALLY been done with the game? Systems have been overhauled, revisions have been done, iterations have been made. But how did the game actually evolve? All the core systems still work almost exactly the same as before. We got some polish, but not much else. The game has remained stagnant ever since CCP decided to put Incarna on ice. Go ahead, take a look at the 'expansions' and patches for EVE since 2011. We haven't actually seen any game-changing content after Apocrypha hit, unless you count Dominion as well.

Player rioted because CCP was ignoring existing content and focusing only on new 'Jesus features'. Rather than find a balance between new features and iterating existing ones, CCP downsized the staff actually working on EVE and is now focusing almost solely on iteration instead. I hope I don't have to explain how this is also a bad thing.

Stagnation follows as a result. Rather than take a chance and completely overhaul sovereignty, CCP elected to make what pretty much boils down to an incredibly minor change. Wormhole systems were basically ignored after Apocrypha to begin with. Industry works almost exactly the same as it did 13 years ago, albeit with a new coat of paint. Missions are still incredibly boring as PvE content, including burner missions. PvP still comes down to mostly 'who brings the most caps and the most stable internetconnection'. ...

From here
More ways to play EVE

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.