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Dev blog: Reworking Capital Ships: Skills, Modules and Refitting

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Lugh Crow-Slave
#121 - 2016-02-13 01:44:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Mr Rive wrote:
"It is important to remember that Force Auxiliaries are new ships and can be tuned specifically for Triage gameplay in both mechanics and stats"

tuned specifically for triage gameplay doesn't sound like they're meant to be fleet support ships at all, from what I gather, theyre designed to be dedicated triage boats.

1% bonus to Siege Warfare and Information Warfare Links effectiveness

If you think ANYONE is going to waste a highslot on a warfare link on one of these things, as opposed to having a dedicated fleet booster, then you're having a laugh.

Honestly, its a complete waste of two role bonuses, they might aswell not be there at all, theyre completely detrimental if fitted to any fleet, as not only does it reduce the amount of remote reps the carrier can give out (3 links, triage mod leaves 2 slots for reppers lawl), but the bonuses are so low, you are better off using a command destroyer over them.

A FAR better role bonus for a dedicated triage boat, especially considering the refit penalties, which are going to make jumping in to a hostile fleet a complete nightmare to counter, is giving FAUX a reduction in the capacitor amount needed to jump. That way, FAUX can actually be used to jump into hostiles, reducing a defender's advantage.

Another great bonus for FAUX to have would be a reduction in the amount needed for remote armor or shield reps

Another one would be to increase the effectiveness of capacitor battery resistance to counter capital neuts

Another one would be to reduce the amount of nanite paste needed to repair modules, or increase the repair speed of damage modules.

I could write about another 20 which would actually be useful to a FAUX, but having warfare links on a ship with 6 highslots thats meant to rep, triage, and cap transfer, is at the absolute bottom of the list.


Like I said maybe ccp is tailoring triage to now give warfare link boosts the 1%bonuse seems odd in every way of there if no plan behind it.

But if nothing is gong to be done with it then yes it is a major waste of three role bonuses

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Alex Lenin
No.Mercy
Triumvirate.
#122 - 2016-02-13 02:00:40 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Black Mystic wrote:
.



3 cycle time is a great help with low buffer sub caps



Someone use triage with low buffer ships? LULWUT?

Triage on field mean that there already is BS or Cap fleet (or t3 armor cruiser, ok). And low buffer mean hight mobility, but triage-ship absolutely hasn't it.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#123 - 2016-02-13 02:04:29 UTC
Alex Lenin wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Black Mystic wrote:
.



3 cycle time is a great help with low buffer sub caps



Someone use triage with low buffer ships? LULWUT?

Triage on field mean that there already is BS or Cap fleet (or t3 armor cruiser, ok). And low buffer mean hight mobility, but triage-ship absolutely hasn't it.


Low buffer relative to capital shipsRoll

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Syri Taneka
NOVA-CAINE
#124 - 2016-02-13 02:19:53 UTC
Can we get an idea of how Carrier skill bonuses are going to change since they will no longer be doing logistics? I have a Thanatos and a Nidhoggur and I want to know which (if either) I should keep as a carrier.
MidnightWyvern
Fukamichi Corporation
SAYR Galactic
#125 - 2016-02-13 02:44:51 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
A 1% role bonus to links is trash. This means 3 of 4 role bonuses are completely wasted. No one will ever use these for links when they can fly a covert nullified almost unprobable T3 for half the price and get a 10% bonus with defensive subsystems at 5. Let alone a CS with 15% bonuses.

If your aim was to get a 5% bonus, then make it a 5% role bonus, or a 1% per level of something skill bonus.

Is that supposed to be 1%? Something tells me that might have been a typo, as weird as it would be to see it repeated that many times.

I mean, what would be the point of even having a 1% role bonus?

Rattati Senpai noticed us! See you in the next FPS!

Alts: Saray Wyvern, Mobius Wyvern (Dust 514)
loquacious7
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#126 - 2016-02-13 03:10:20 UTC
galtest12345 wrote:
That "card game" analogy hurt my brain so much.

Seriously, you're missing the mark here: Bringing your fleet and all the fitting to the field is your deck, how you fit and choices you make in refitting is you playing particular cards in your deck.

You cannot change your entire deck (the fleet composition, modules you brought) mid-game, but what kind of card game makes you bring and play all your cards in one big hand?

What boring ass card game do you envision, where you show your cards, the enemy shows his, you declare the winner and then that's it. Wow that's 13 seconds of card gaming spent, now what?

By removing refitting you are making it so only certain doctrines become viable, you cannot counter or adapt in the field so you have to ensure your fleet is of sufficient cookie cutter status to meet the most likely enemy. That is removing choice, removing tactics. This is what it was like before, refitting in combat unlocked SO many avenues for small gangs, fleets, single players, etc. to try well thought through tactics.

Imagine the Rooks n Kings videos with no combat refitting .. Oh wait, half of them wouldn't exist, because that small group would not have been able to pull off the stunts they did without it.

Not to mention the implications for people in PVE, who now have to just bring X ship and that's it because you cannot refit with a bastion module going - PVE, shooting red crosses, is verging on mind numbing already and you are eliminating a creative aspect of it, and murdering a ton of good, fun fits that people use.



I realise you aren't going to change your mind because you believe that "committing and then being blown up or blowing the enemy up in a mind numbing hit F1-F4" is the best form or fleet warfare and that all the fights should be won in EFT before hand, but seriously .. you are wrong.



In some card games you actually get to throw away a few cards and keep what works for you, then you get to replace the cards that you thought would not work. But that logic works :) I'm not sure who these people are that said big fleets of capitals are killing this game. when everyone was logging in and big fleets were the norm I believe around 60k players were online on the weekends. But now after all these "fixes" we should tell those people they can log back in...
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#127 - 2016-02-13 03:12:52 UTC
Looks to me like you nailed it this time, CCP. Well done.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Lugh Crow-Slave
#128 - 2016-02-13 03:15:21 UTC
Syri Taneka wrote:
Can we get an idea of how Carrier skill bonuses are going to change since they will no longer be doing logistics? I have a Thanatos and a Nidhoggur and I want to know which (if either) I should keep as a carrier.


ii hope it gets its own blog they keep lumping things together into the same blogs and it makes the feedback threads a mess

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Vol Arm'OOO
Central Co-Prosperity Union
#129 - 2016-02-13 03:58:54 UTC
Can we just get rid of triage? Its terrible game play by itself - your ship is stuck in one place - you cant do anything but rep while everyone is slowly killing you. Also with the removal of combat fitting.any skill that was associated with triage use has been totally thrown out the window. IMO it would be better to make fax like large t1 repping cruisers. Anyone who has played with exeq or scythe knows they can be terribly fun spider tanking combat ships, and can in the right circumstances be a serious force in and of themselves. Moreover, because your focus is on multiple things while you are using them - applying dps, repping friendlies, keeping range from hostiles while staying in range of your mates, means that properly using such ships is skill intensive which would be a decent trade off for the loss of skill issues caused by the removal of combat refitting. Hence. it would be sweet imo if fax were just larger exeqs or scythes - with bonus to repping capabilities and corresponding combat capabilities in and of themselves.

I don't play, I just fourm warrior.
PAPULA
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#130 - 2016-02-13 04:15:50 UTC  |  Edited by: PAPULA
Quote:
Any carrier with a triage module fitted (T1 or T2) in station, contract or ship maintenance array will be changed to a Force Auxiliary of the same faction.

So currently i have gallente carrier level 4 will i be able to fly Fore Aux after this change ? or do i have to TRAIN Force Aux to level 1 ?

What will loss of gallente carrier do ? we get skillpoints or do we get same faction force aux skill to level as we have carrier now ?!

Shocked


Also do i have to pay 500mil again so i can fly "new carrier" called Force Aux ?
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#131 - 2016-02-13 04:23:40 UTC
Quote:
If you've already purchased a Force Auxiliary skillbook, the purchase price and any skillpoints trained will be refunded.


When will the current FAX skills get removed and reimbursed? It seems to me that this should be patched fairly soon. If it is not, people should be able to build up quite a few allocatable skillpoints between patches.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#132 - 2016-02-13 04:24:28 UTC
PAPULA wrote:
Quote:
Any carrier with a triage module fitted (T1 or T2) in station, contract or ship maintenance array will be changed to a Force Auxiliary of the same faction.

So currently i have gallente carrier level 4 will i be able to fly Fore Aux after this change ? or do i have to TRAIN Force Aux to level 1 ?

What will loss of gallente carrier do ? we get skillpoints or do we get same faction force aux skill to level as we have carrier now ?!

Shocked


Also do i have to pay 500mil again so i can fly "new carrier" called Force Aux ?


No. All these questions are answered in the new Dev Blog.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#133 - 2016-02-13 04:35:54 UTC
Great changes, although I'm still a little confused as to why the light fighter and support fighter skills should still be 12x.
PAPULA
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#134 - 2016-02-13 04:36:57 UTC  |  Edited by: PAPULA
Quote:
Our currently proposed solution is that you can’t refit with a weapons timer. Meaning, if you are aggressing a player, or assisting a player ship who is aggressing a player, you can't refit for 60 seconds.

What about marauders in bastion mode for example shooting npc's ?
There is no PvP involved and i can't refit my marauder ?
Question

Or are marauders getting a special timer for bastion that doesn't allow docking but still allows refitting as long as marauder is not in combat with another player ?
Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers
#135 - 2016-02-13 05:25:43 UTC
[quote=Mr Rive]"It is important to remember that Force Auxiliaries are new ships and can be tuned specifically for Triage gameplay in both mechanics and stats"

tuned specifically for triage gameplay doesn't sound like they're meant to be fleet support ships at all, from what I gather, theyre designed to be dedicated triage boats.

1% bonus to Siege Warfare and Information Warfare Links effectiveness

If you think ANYONE is going to waste a highslot on a warfare link on one of these things, as opposed to having a dedicated fleet booster, then you're having a laugh.

Honestly, its a complete waste of two role bonuses, they might aswell not be there at all, theyre completely detrimental if fitted to any fleet, as not only does it reduce the amount of remote reps the carrier can give out (3 links, triage mod leaves 2 slots for reppers lawl), but the bonuses are so low, you are better off using a command destroyer over them.

quote]


Except the Fax will be using an Actual warfare link that doesn't run out of probe/charge/link ammo unlike the Command Destroyer in the near future. That CD is good until it hits Reload, and I am sure you do not want to keep a CD sitting in the middle of your Cap fleet just to fire off Boost probes. Remember from the Podcast Command destroyer will become the Boost launching version of an Interdictor.
Eris = Interdiction probes
Magus = Boost probes
FAX = link that can always apply boosts within the area of effect range. Figure like a Big ole Hictor bubble of boost if they follow the methods of the Interdictor and Heavy Interdictor mechanics.
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#136 - 2016-02-13 06:38:15 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
seriously though gallente ship with shield transfers, what's up with that



Yup, instead of shield make it hull instead. :)

Just Add Water
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#137 - 2016-02-13 08:44:00 UTC
With regards to the scriptable hardeners, will they show up on ship scan as loaded with a particular script. So that someone with a ship scanner can see the changes and then ammo swap to go through the new hole.
Zee Zaugg
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#138 - 2016-02-13 10:07:03 UTC
Combat refitting is unhealthy.I don't think a weapons timer is long enough, you shouldn't be able to refit at all under fire. Realistically its a major refit that can't be done in seconds. Game wise its unbalanced and removes the consequences of having to plan ahead and know what you're fighting. Also the new modules like the emergency DC and the scriptable resists actually do a lot of the same work as the refitting did, just in a less abuseable way. Don't let them bully you ccp this is a good idea don't go easy on them.

Also, 1% link bonus is just silly. Any link is silly, its a medic not a flagship. If you want to add a sad boost add it to carriers, which are historically flagship classes. But the FAX don't need boosters, they're straight logi, don't mix roles. What they should really have is a hefty boost to logi drones. That would make sense for the class and since they look like giant carriers it would look right. Or even adding a new kind of fighter logi tryp just for them. Bit drones should be a part of them
Baki Yuku
Doomheim
#139 - 2016-02-13 10:15:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Baki Yuku
Captain StringfellowHawk wrote:
[quote=Mr Rive]"It is important to remember that Force Auxiliaries are new ships and can be tuned specifically for Triage gameplay in both mechanics and stats"

tuned specifically for triage gameplay doesn't sound like they're meant to be fleet support ships at all, from what I gather, theyre designed to be dedicated triage boats.

1% bonus to Siege Warfare and Information Warfare Links effectiveness

If you think ANYONE is going to waste a highslot on a warfare link on one of these things, as opposed to having a dedicated fleet booster, then you're having a laugh.

Honestly, its a complete waste of two role bonuses, they might aswell not be there at all, theyre completely detrimental if fitted to any fleet, as not only does it reduce the amount of remote reps the carrier can give out (3 links, triage mod leaves 2 slots for reppers lawl), but the bonuses are so low, you are better off using a command destroyer over them.

quote]


Except the Fax will be using an Actual warfare link that doesn't run out of probe/charge/link ammo unlike the Command Destroyer in the near future. That CD is good until it hits Reload, and I am sure you do not want to keep a CD sitting in the middle of your Cap fleet just to fire off Boost probes. Remember from the Podcast Command destroyer will become the Boost launching version of an Interdictor.
Eris = Interdiction probes
Magus = Boost probes
FAX = link that can always apply boosts within the area of effect range. Figure like a Big ole Hictor bubble of boost if they follow the methods of the Interdictor and Heavy Interdictor mechanics.


You really don't get it. Links on FAX are pointless. That this even needs to be explained is just sad. Another faceplam is the slotlayout there really wasnt any point of adding another highslot that mid they took away in exchange is a huge deal especially to the caldari version.

Right now FAX stats and bonus's look like they where thrown togther last minute and just look what sticks and what doesn't. **** poor job tbh.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#140 - 2016-02-13 10:25:06 UTC
Surely your analysis relies on Links working as they do at present?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016