These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Balancing bumping and looting mechanics

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#901 - 2016-02-05 09:47:13 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
The ship stats are irrelevant...

I hope you're joking.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#902 - 2016-02-05 09:55:59 UTC
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


A single cruiser ramming into a MWDing mach will knock the mach out of alignment and force it to miss its target. I have had it done to me so many times out in null when trying to bump carriers I have lost count.

I'd make a wild guess there's a bit of difference between Mach fitted for PvP in null/low and a hisec bumper. But that is just my guess.


The game mechanics are exactly the same.

The ship stats are not, however.


Very little difference between a Mach and my nano mega.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#903 - 2016-02-05 09:58:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
The ship stats are irrelevant...

I hope you're joking.
Nope.

As you're so fond of informing us, the topic under discussion is the art of bumping. A T1 cruiser fitted properly is perfectly capable of bumping a Machariel regardless of whether the Machariel is fitted for bumping or shooting people in the face.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#904 - 2016-02-05 10:09:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
The ship stats are irrelevant...

I hope you're joking.
Nope.
As you're so fond of informing us, the topic under discussion is the art of bumping. A T1 cruiser fitted properly is perfectly capable of bumping a Machariel regardless of whether the Machariel is fitted for bumping or shooting people in the face.

What's important is wheather that bump is consequential in terms of stopping the use of the Mach as an alignment/warp disruption tool. I'd guess that is not the case when bumping machs are concerned. I know for a fact that it doesn't work when using Mach for counter-bumping, so can't see how a t1 cruiser would be more efficient. Also, if you're trying to diconnect discussion about ship stats from discussion about counter-bumping, you are likely not really serious about the discussion in the first place.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#905 - 2016-02-05 10:29:43 UTC
Best part of this is Goons managed to mess up my bumping runs with AB harpies.
Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#906 - 2016-02-05 10:48:20 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Best part of this is Goons managed to mess up my bumping runs with AB harpies.

I guess we should get goons to join the anti-bumping efforts Cool
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#907 - 2016-02-05 12:15:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
What's important is wheather that bump is consequential in terms of stopping the use of the Mach as an alignment/warp disruption tool. I'd guess that is not the case when bumping machs are concerned. I know for a fact that it doesn't work when using Mach for counter-bumping, so can't see how a t1 cruiser would be more efficient.
You need to practice more, just because you can't do it doesn't make it impossible.

Quote:
Also, if you're trying to diconnect discussion about ship stats from discussion about counter-bumping, you are likely not really serious about the discussion in the first place.
That's really rich coming from somebody that wanted to disconnect discussion about ganking from discussion about bumping and looting.

The mechanics are the same regardless of the ship stats, ergo the ship stats aren't particularly relevant to the discussion at hand, which is about the mechanics.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#908 - 2016-02-05 12:21:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:

The mechanics are the same regardless of the ship stats, ergo the ship stats aren't particularly relevant.

So, what you are saying is that a bumping fit Mach (align time 7 secs w/o mwd or skills) is the same thing as a Mach w/o agility mods/rigs (12,6 secs w/o mwd or skills). Those 5,6 seconds are irrelevant?
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#909 - 2016-02-05 12:36:32 UTC
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:

The mechanics are the same regardless of the ship stats, ergo the ship stats aren't particularly relevant.

So, what you are saying is that a bumping fit Mach (align time 7 secs w/o mwd or skills) is the same thing as a Mach w/o agility mods/rigs (12,6 secs w/o mwd or skills). Those 5,6 seconds are irrelevant?
Put it this way, when Baltec1 says that a T1 Cruiser can bump a bumping Machariel I tend to believe him, because he has consistently proven, over many years, that he is knowledgeable about game mechanics and ship fits; you haven't.

TL;DR You're your own worst enemy if you expect others to take you seriously.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#910 - 2016-02-05 12:39:47 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
That's really rich coming from somebody that wanted to disconnect discussion about ganking from discussion about bumping and looting.

Lol, so you are equating discussion about a basic trait of ships when talking about bumping (ship agility stats) to discussion about bumping and ganking - activities which can be used in conjunction but are completely independent and viable on their own?
Rich is a poor word to describe your stretching of arguments.


Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:

The mechanics are the same regardless of the ship stats, ergo the ship stats aren't particularly relevant.

So, what you are saying is that a bumping fit Mach (align time 7 secs w/o mwd or skills) is the same thing as a Mach w/o agility mods/rigs (12,6 secs w/o mwd or skills). Those 5,6 seconds are irrelevant?
Put it this way, when Baltec1 says that a T1 Cruiser can bump a bumping Machariel I tend to believe him, because he has consistently proven, over many years, that he is knowledgeable about game mechanics and ship fits; you haven't.

TL;DR You're your own worst enemy if you expect others to take you seriously.

So, if I give you numbers which can be easily verified if you care to open your eft (or whatever you're using), you'll simply ignore them and make this a personal issue. Well, color me surprised.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#911 - 2016-02-05 12:52:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:

So, if I give you numbers which can be easily verified if you care to open your eft (or whatever you're using), you'll simply ignore them and make this a personal issue. Well, color me surprised.
I won't dispute your numbers unless you present them as an inappropriate comparison like you did earlier in the thread. I will dispute your understanding of what those numbers actually mean or how they apply in practice, because they're only half the story.

There's no personal issues involved. I'm not known for mincing my words so if there was one you'd know about it.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#912 - 2016-02-05 13:03:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Rhamnousia Nosferatu
baltec1 wrote:

Very little difference between a Mach and my nano mega.

If you're comparing your 2xNano, 2xOverdrive mega fit vs a typical bumper mach - the difference is about 4 secs w/o skills or mwd. Add likely difference in implants (hisec vs nullsec) into equation too.
Weather that is little or big difference will probably be a matter of individual interpretation, depending on which side one belongs to.
Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#913 - 2016-02-05 13:07:32 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
I will dispute your understanding of what those numbers actually mean or how they apply in practice, because they're only half the story.

Let me put it like this then - does the "half" represented by ship stats matter in discussing the issue of bumping?
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#914 - 2016-02-05 13:44:07 UTC
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
I will dispute your understanding of what those numbers actually mean or how they apply in practice, because they're only half the story.

Let me put it like this then - does the "half" represented by ship stats matter in discussing the issue of bumping?
To the extent that you believe they do? Not in my opinion.

I refuse to engage you further on this particular subject, suffice to say I disagree with you, leave it at that.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#915 - 2016-02-05 13:49:10 UTC
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
That's really rich coming from somebody that wanted to disconnect discussion about ganking from discussion about bumping and looting.

Lol, so you are equating discussion about a basic trait of ships when talking about bumping (ship agility stats) to discussion about bumping and ganking - activities which can be used in conjunction but are completely independent and viable on their own?
Rich is a poor word to describe your stretching of arguments.


Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:

The mechanics are the same regardless of the ship stats, ergo the ship stats aren't particularly relevant.

So, what you are saying is that a bumping fit Mach (align time 7 secs w/o mwd or skills) is the same thing as a Mach w/o agility mods/rigs (12,6 secs w/o mwd or skills). Those 5,6 seconds are irrelevant?
Put it this way, when Baltec1 says that a T1 Cruiser can bump a bumping Machariel I tend to believe him, because he has consistently proven, over many years, that he is knowledgeable about game mechanics and ship fits; you haven't.

TL;DR You're your own worst enemy if you expect others to take you seriously.

So, if I give you numbers which can be easily verified if you care to open your eft (or whatever you're using), you'll simply ignore them and make this a personal issue. Well, color me surprised.


EFT is not as accurate as you assume.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#916 - 2016-02-05 13:59:32 UTC
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Very little difference between a Mach and my nano mega.

If you're comparing your 2xNano, 2xOverdrive mega fit vs a typical bumper mach - the difference is about 4 secs w/o skills or mwd. Add likely difference in implants (hisec vs nullsec) into equation too.
Weather that is little or big difference will probably be a matter of individual interpretation, depending on which side one belongs to.


Actually I'm comparing my harpy fleet mega with the mach.
Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#917 - 2016-02-05 14:26:56 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

Actually I'm comparing my harpy fleet mega with the mach.

No idea which of the mega losses that one is, but the one I mentioned was the best one for comparison (speed plays a role as well in the bumping game). Care to share the fit / stats, just for comparison purposes?
Re. eft - it might not be precise down to a single percentage, but it gets the job done and provides more then a decent reference point for what we're discussing.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#918 - 2016-02-05 15:04:15 UTC
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Actually I'm comparing my harpy fleet mega with the mach.

No idea which of the mega losses that one is, but the one I mentioned was the best one for comparison (speed plays a role as well in the bumping game). Care to share the fit / stats, just for comparison purposes?
Re. eft - it might not be precise down to a single percentage, but it gets the job done and provides more then a decent reference point for what we're discussing.


The bumping mechanics are exactly the same. Doesn't matter what battleship you use, a cruiser with a closing speed of roughly 5km/sec is going to have a big impact.
bigbud skunkafella
Utama Incorporated
Astral Alliance
#919 - 2016-02-05 15:04:50 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
bigbud skunkafella wrote:
of course, theres nothing to stop the troll tackler from jumping bak thru, or having a fleet mate on other side is there?
True enough for the fleetmate, not for the tackle due to weapons timers, however that risk is there for every ship, not just freighters. Also please explain the term troll tackle.


under pedros proposal, the risk of troll tackle is only there for freighters, due to there not being a concord response , as there would in any other case of illegally tackling any other ship in hisec.

troll tackling = tackling a freighter with no intent to properly engage, doing it for giggles, a bit like the troll inty concept regarding entosis mechanics that i'm sure you've heard about.

tho if pedros suggestion only allowed point rather than scram , then the mjd to escape the point would of course help prevent this being abused too much.


Enabran' Tain
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#920 - 2016-02-05 15:37:48 UTC
Solution: Create a game mechanic that works like this: If one player bumps another a certain number of times within a certain amount of time, at a certain speed, the aggressor gets a suspect timer for just the aggressed and everyone in his fleet, to attack.

Vectors: The speed and mass of the ship could play a part
in rather or not it is registered as an actual aggressive bump, as micro warp drives are needed and they increase the mass of the ship greatly.

Example: Bumper bumps an orca 5 times in 30 minutes, he gets a suspect timer and can be shot, but if the bumper tries to bump the orca into other ships multiple times, it will not cause a suspect timer for the Orca due to lack of necessary speed for it to register as an aggressive bump.

Conclusion: There is no instance or reason someone could bump into someone, outside their fleet, 5 times in 30 minutes unless it was on purpose and done deliberately.

The speed and mass would literally determine an aggressive bump. Hitting someone going several thousand k/sec multiple times in minutes would earn a suspect time.