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Balancing bumping and looting mechanics

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Giaus Felix
Doomheim
#621 - 2016-02-02 17:37:40 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Dear anti-gankers

Maybe you should learn to play with the current rules of the game before you ask for more changes that will backfire in your face anyway.

:effort:

I came for the spaceships, I stayed for the tears.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#622 - 2016-02-02 18:35:32 UTC
Giaus Felix wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Dear anti-gankers

Maybe you should learn to play with the current rules of the game before you ask for more changes that will backfire in your face anyway.

:effort:



So the white knight in the kronos on the Niarja gate that was pretty much THE factor in saving our orca (we had a bumping ship coming, but was pretty far out) said he's saved over 50 freighters. If you're looking to white knight I think a marauder to perform mach bumping is ideal. Fit it for max speed and max tank and go for it. I would imagine if you really dislike freighter ganking that every single mach bump would feel pretty good.

I would think a saved freighter would be gracious w/ a donation. I could even see if you advertised your service you could possibly be hired in advance to post up on a gate and engage (err.... bump) any machs before they could get the freighter into a bad spot.

The kronos pilot seemed to be having a good time and he was very effective. To be fair though, bring a webber and don't just totally depend on a random to save your bacon.
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#623 - 2016-02-02 18:42:35 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Giaus Felix wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Dear anti-gankers

Maybe you should learn to play with the current rules of the game before you ask for more changes that will backfire in your face anyway.

:effort:



So the white knight in the kronos on the Niarja gate that was pretty much THE factor in saving our orca (we had a bumping ship coming, but was pretty far out) said he's saved over 50 freighters. If you're looking to white knight I think a marauder to perform mach bumping is ideal. Fit it for max speed and max tank and go for it. I would imagine if you really dislike freighter ganking that every single mach bump would feel pretty good.

I would think a saved freighter would be gracious w/ a donation. I could even see if you advertised your service you could possibly be hired in advance to post up on a gate and engage (err.... bump) any machs before they could get the freighter into a bad spot.

The kronos pilot seemed to be having a good time and he was very effective. To be fair though, bring a webber and don't just totally depend on a random to save your bacon.

Perfect! He can show OP and his friends how to actually play the game so they can stop crying on the forums and we can close the thread.

Evil RatKid
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#624 - 2016-02-02 19:07:26 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
I will say that a rapier or huginn may have a chance to web a cap into warp up until the first bump occurs.


Your rapier or huginn should go sit on the gate at zero. Their range and the distance the freighter will be from the in gate will ensure you can indeed web them unless you are really unlucky and the bumping ship was already moving in your direction and close when you drop gate cloak.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#625 - 2016-02-02 19:09:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Serendipity Lost wrote:

So the white knight in the kronos on the Niarja gate that was pretty much THE factor in saving our orca (we had a bumping ship coming, but was pretty far out) said he's saved over 50 freighters. If you're looking to white knight I think a marauder to perform mach bumping is ideal. Fit it for max speed and max tank and go for it. I would imagine if you really dislike freighter ganking that every single mach bump would feel pretty good.

I would think a saved freighter would be gracious w/ a donation. I could even see if you advertised your service you could possibly be hired in advance to post up on a gate and engage (err.... bump) any machs before they could get the freighter into a bad spot.

The kronos pilot seemed to be having a good time and he was very effective. To be fair though, bring a webber and don't just totally depend on a random to save your bacon.


Tbh, if a Mach fit for speed got bumped by a kronos, the bumper must have either halfe arsed it, or was really bad.
Sometimes they tip, most of the times they don't ☺
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#626 - 2016-02-02 19:13:28 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
You'd have been quicker and easier scramming and webbing the bumping machariel with T1 frigates.



We had just declared our week of HS R&R over and we in the process of moving to invade a wh. We had just spent a lot of isk clearing a bunch of kill rights from other shinanigans. Based on timing we didn't want to put kill rights back on the ledger literally 15 minutes after we finished clearing the books. We went w/ webs once the white knight in the kronos started going for the mach. It all worked out.

I do agree with you though - you have to stop the mach if you want to extract once the bumping is in progress.


Doesn't really negate the point though.

Ganking the bumping ship can indeed save a freighter. Webbing and scraming the bumping ship might be a good strategy too as you'll drop his speed alot and "hold" him there for about 18 seconds. One person incurring kill rights to save your Orca...sounds like a reasonable trade off to me, but it was your call.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#627 - 2016-02-02 19:15:43 UTC
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
If anything, it would give inexperienced freighter pilots a belief they can escape and make them even less likely to use the already available tools that actually work, but that's just a bit of speculation. It certainly wouldn't make them more likely to use what is already known to work.


It would also give experienced and active pilots an opportunity to get webbed into warp (after bumping started). How would that be bad?
Also, regardless of having MJD capable freighters, I don't think that inexperienced pilots know anything about the tools that actually might or might not work in the odd case of bumper being really bad.

Experienced and active pilots are already being webbed, so they don't need an MJD because they aren't being bumped.

If they get lazy in a haul and don't use webs, wel that's the chance they take and they deserve the consequences if they get caught.

However, even with an MJD fit, after they use the MJD, how are the webs getting to them before the Mach?

As to thinking inexperienced pilots don't know about the tools available to them, more fool them if you're right. Dumb move yo be flying a slow, expensive ship and not fi ding out how to fly it. That doesn't deserve and assistance from an extra ship capability that won't achieve anything for them anyway.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#628 - 2016-02-02 19:25:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
bigbud skunkafella wrote:
also, from my observations from assisting hundreds of freighters , webbing only works if the freighter has no lateral movement, meaning it can be aligned correctly to a warp in/out, but all the bumper has to do to prevent warp is side swipe the freighter. so to say bring a webber and all will be well once the freighter is being bumped isnt quite true ....

Web's work if a Freighter is either stationary, or only moving very slowly (very close to stationary).

Also, you can't be aligned correctly and then be bumped. If you are aligned correctly (>= 75% of speed in the direction of intended warp), then you warp. Anything else means you aren't aligned correctly; so yes bumps will stop an intended warp if your direction is moved away from your desired warp direction while you are aligning.

Any yes, webs after you have been bumped are pointless. You use them before and not get bumped in the first place. Prevention is better than a cure and all that.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#629 - 2016-02-02 19:34:24 UTC
bigbud skunkafella wrote:
re the guy who asked to supply proof that being bumped for x amount of hours, while helpless in a giant space pinball costs subscribers, let's just call it an educated guess. i can't see the day that ccp will release a promo video extolling the virtues of the above to attract new players....

Educated by what exactly?

Because your guess isn't supported by any data that CCP have released over the last couple of years, so what's the basis for guessing that is the case? That it meets bias about things but isn't at all validated?
Mandar Amelana
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#630 - 2016-02-02 19:44:56 UTC
My .02 ISK

The frustration here is that bumping with the intention of aiding in a gank is an obvious aggressive act and done so right in front of CONCORD forces. It would be like a cop watching as a person holds another person down with the intent of doing so until his buddy shows up to murder him and doing nothing to stop it. Is there a way to avoid it? Yes. But it is rather inconsistent with in the universe itself that this is allowed.

The difficulty is in somehow enacting a mechanic that won't result in CONCORD going bananas on anyone who accidentally bumps someone trying to leave Jita.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#631 - 2016-02-02 19:49:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Serendipity Lost wrote:
The slow down and align times of a bumped capital DO NOT allow enough time for 5 unbonussed webs to get it into warp before the mach makes another run and sends it flying. It wasn't even close. I will say that a rapier or huginn may have a chance to web a cap into warp up until the first bump occurs. Once the first mach bump occurs - webbing alone is pointless. The speed of the bounced ship in the bounced direction can't be reduced enough between bumps.

Nice post .

Loki works well too. I originally used a crucifier when I first created my webbing alt, but trained her into a Loki as soon as I could.

While the Huggin/Rapier works well, I prefer the ability of the Loki to also fit links. My fit and stats:

http://puu.sh/mTpBM/1e20011a25.jpg

51.8km overheated webs, 78K EHP, lock time under 2 seconds.

In all the time I have used that fit, my Freighter has only been outside the overheated range once on initial jump through a regional gate, requiring the webbing alt to position before the freighter decloaks. The rest of the time, the web decloaks and pre-activates modules and then locks and webs as soon as the Freighter appears on screen.

2 ticks to lock and 1 more to get the Freighter into warp. The freighter enters warp 3 seconds after decloaking.

If my hauling alt is in a Jump Freighter, then the Loki provides a backup cyno option if my exit cyno gets killed while waiting on a station to light. So if the JF gets bumped (eg. unlucky because of server lag) and the exit cyno is dead, the Loki will go to the nearest lowsec system and light the cyno instead; and if it then dies, I don't care. Better to lose a Loki than a JF.
Brad Neece
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#632 - 2016-02-02 20:02:46 UTC
Since the webbing is effective.....how about allowing it within Fleets, forgot the dueling option?
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#633 - 2016-02-02 20:04:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Brad Neece wrote:
Since the webbing is effective.....how about allowing it within Fleets, forgot the dueling option?

2 things in terms of mine:

1. It is in fleet (which as no effect on whether a target is legal or not) in order to use the links
2. is in the same Corp as my Freighter pilot and friendly fire is set legal, so no dual is required at all**

** My Freighter pilot is in a player Corp, not an NPC Corp. The hauling alt and webs drop to an NPC Corp only under a wardec
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#634 - 2016-02-02 20:05:46 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
bigbud skunkafella wrote:
re the guy who asked to supply proof that being bumped for x amount of hours, while helpless in a giant space pinball costs subscribers, let's just call it an educated guess. i can't see the day that ccp will release a promo video extolling the virtues of the above to attract new players....

Educated by what exactly?

Because your guess isn't supported by any data that CCP have released over the last couple of years, so what's the basis for guessing that is the case? That it meets bias about things but isn't at all validated?


Also, how frequently is this happening? How common is 5-6 hours of bumping happening?

Another question is would people leave the game if bumping was deemed an exploit or heavily nerfed?

Funny how we never see that question in these threads?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#635 - 2016-02-02 20:08:24 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Also, how frequently is this happening? How common is 5-6 hours of bumping happening?

That's part of what I'm collecting data for at the moment.

It'll be a couple of weeks before I have sufficient data, but aiming for 95 +/- 1% confidence in the results.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#636 - 2016-02-02 20:23:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
As it has been pointed out so many times before, having a webber guarantees nothing as seen in this case (if you look at that char's kb, you'll find more similar cases). That BB died suicide tackling the bowhead, which died too after 43 minutes. So webs mean nothing really.

The use of a BB is reasonably common based on zkill.

There are 2 advantages that you can have though.

1. A webbing alt that is just as quick to lock the target (ie. under 2 seconds)
2. You get to pick the time you decloak

So if the BB is cloaked on gate and decloaks, then immediately decloak and web. The BB will have a 5 second locking delay.

If the BB is already decloaked, then be immediately ready to lock the Freighter with the webber so that you get to lock first. As long as you are 1 second faster than the BB pilot, the Freighter will be in warp before he achieves lock.

Nothing is guaranteed and that's part of what makes this game so great.
bigbud skunkafella
Utama Incorporated
Astral Alliance
#637 - 2016-02-02 20:24:07 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
bigbud skunkafella wrote:
re the guy who asked to supply proof that being bumped for x amount of hours, while helpless in a giant space pinball costs subscribers, let's just call it an educated guess. i can't see the day that ccp will release a promo video extolling the virtues of the above to attract new players....

Educated by what exactly?

Because your guess isn't supported by any data that CCP have released over the last couple of years, so what's the basis for guessing that is the case? That it meets bias about things but isn't at all validated?


Also, how frequently is this happening? How common is 5-6 hours of bumping happening?

Another question is would people leave the game if bumping was deemed an exploit or heavily nerfed?

Funny how we never see that question in these threads?


if u re-read carefully what i posted, i said x amount of hours, hours being the operative word here. during my time in hsm, i and my fleet members observed the 'stacking ' of bumped freighters on many occasions, with multiple bumpers (6 or more) holding targets till the gank squad could get round to them, at slightly less than 4 ganks max per hour , taking down targets in order of value or vulnerabilty (ie no protective fleet near) , you do the maths . these gank sessions frequently went on for 6 hrs or more .

i am not asking for bumping to be deemed an exploit in my suggestion , or any kind of nerf .

i personally have observed 4-6 hour bumping sagas on at least 3 occasions. multiple hour bumps? too many to count .
Brad Neece
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#638 - 2016-02-02 20:25:40 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Also, how frequently is this happening? How common is 5-6 hours of bumping happening?

That's part of what I'm collecting data for at the moment.

It'll be a couple of weeks before I have sufficient data, but aiming for 95 +/- 1% confidence in the results.


And I do want to point out....bumping/ganking quite seasonal. Summer it sky rockets as more people have time to play. And may well give quite a tell to the age range of bumper/gankers in general :) The Uedama CODE. fleet ganks have slowed as the best FC, Loyalanon has not quite had the time. And when in full swing its quite hectic, a 5 hour mass gank feast days do happen...and multiple bumpers are sending in "pings"... the bumpee does have alot time to kill before there demise.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#639 - 2016-02-02 20:25:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
bigbud skunkafella wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
bigbud skunkafella wrote:
re the guy who asked to supply proof that being bumped for x amount of hours, while helpless in a giant space pinball costs subscribers, let's just call it an educated guess. i can't see the day that ccp will release a promo video extolling the virtues of the above to attract new players....

Educated by what exactly?

Because your guess isn't supported by any data that CCP have released over the last couple of years, so what's the basis for guessing that is the case? That it meets bias about things but isn't at all validated?


Also, how frequently is this happening? How common is 5-6 hours of bumping happening?

Another question is would people leave the game if bumping was deemed an exploit or heavily nerfed?

Funny how we never see that question in these threads?


if u re-read carefully what i posted, i said x amount of hours, hours being the operative word here. during my time in hsm, i and my fleet members observed the 'stacking ' of bumped freighters on many occasions, with multiple bumpers (6 or more) holding targets till the gank squad could get round to them, at slightly less than 4 ganks max per hour , taking down targets in order of value or vulnerabilty (ie no protective fleet near) , you do the maths . these gank sessions frequently went on for 6 hrs or more .

i am not asking for bumping to be deemed an exploit in my suggestion , or any kind of nerf .

i personally have observed 4-6 hour bumping sagas on at least 3 occasions. multiple hour bumps? too many to count .

costs subsribers are the operative words.

How do you know that cost subscribers?

You can observe all you want in terms of the bumps and ganks. That doesn't mean it costs subscribers. Aggression doesn't even cost new players, so why would it cost people that are already subscribed and actively engaged with the game?

It could quite possibly also bring in new subscribers, especially those that want to be gankers.

If CCP were worried about it then they would have changed the mechanics long ago.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#640 - 2016-02-02 20:35:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Brad Neece wrote:
And I do want to point out....bumping/ganking quite seasonal. Summer it sky rockets as more people have time to play. And may well give quite a tell to the age range of bumper/gankers in general :) The Uedama CODE. fleet ganks have slowed as the best FC, Loyalanon has not quite had the time. And when in full swing its quite hectic, a 5 hour mass gank feast days do happen...and multiple bumpers are sending in "pings"... the bumpee does have alot time to kill before there demise.

So bumping is not a problem right now?

The online numbers peak is February each year: http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility so now is the time of year when the highest number of players are normally expected to be online.

If there is seasonal variability that means bumping is worse when the server numbers are at their lowest (summer in the northern hemisphere is when server numbers are at their lowest), then the study will need more data. That's no problem. Seasonal variability will be an obvious limitation of the current data collection, but it can continue later on too.