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Walking in stations

First post
Author
Jenshae Chiroptera
#1541 - 2016-01-27 22:45:31 UTC
Avvy wrote:
I think it would be a flop.
Mainly because there's a lot of stations and a lot of those stations have very few visitors if any. ....

- Trade hubs,
- Mining / ratting systems
- Staging systems.

Does the average social players really dock consistently in anything else?

Dust being right there, it feels like the social overlap is right through the door. What?

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Amber Starview
Doomheim
#1542 - 2016-01-28 00:00:33 UTC
People talk about time and resources like its a major thing to make a bigger room than what we already have
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#1543 - 2016-01-28 00:11:00 UTC
Amber Starview wrote:
People talk about time and resources like its a major thing to make a bigger room than what we already have


Or put a pet in it.

A cat that always runs right in front of your legs while you walk, to get your attention. Or maybe a dog that leaps on the couch whenever you sit down.

... and you need to refill the automated food dispenser with player made pet food charges to tie WIS into the economy.

Yeah, I could see that: Buy pet for AUR but keep it alive with ISK. Catfood for the cat, dogfood for the dog.

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.

Pix Severus
Empty You
#1544 - 2016-01-28 00:54:16 UTC
I will now interrupt this thread to bring you the obligatory Walken in Stations pun.

MTU Hunter: Latest Entry - June 12 2017 - Vocal Local 5

MTU Hunting 101: Comprehensive Guide

Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1545 - 2016-01-28 07:06:57 UTC
I'm a bit of a litmus test for great ideas. If I like or support it probably eventually going to be implemented. That's not trolling or arrogance either.

Remember way back when I complained about not being able to refit in null as a soloer - we shortly thereafter got the ability to do that with mobile depots.

Remember when I complained and was flamed for suggesting jump drive fatigue and was told it'd never happen and a year later...

Remember when I complained about no docking rights in most of null. Everyone flamed me and told me they'd never change... You get the idea.

Other things I was flamed and ridiculed over:

Capital docking
Small gangs affecting sov
Capital force projection

The list is long. Fact. If you make enough noise and you're ideas are articulated coherently and logically anything is possible.

In relation to WIS it doesn't matter at all if you like or dislike the idea. The only thing that matters is a) it'll increase subscriptions significantly over those it loses and make CCP enough money to make implementing worthwhile and ( b) there is someone in charge at CCP who recognises (a). If those two things exist then yes WIS will happen. If not then it won't.

Just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it's a bad idea it could just be a lack of (b) existing but that may change.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
#1546 - 2016-01-28 11:07:04 UTC
But the WIS has already happened. Well... kinda. You have your door. You cant even kick it and cry all day standing in front of it.

"Implementation" is of the essence.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#1547 - 2016-01-28 12:26:00 UTC
Amber Starview wrote:
People talk about time and resources like its a major thing to make a bigger room than what we already have
We could have a tool to submit player designed assets.
Then CCP can request improvements (That can be done with notes attached to reference points from the asset) or discard it with a short reason.
Then it is a matter of putting the pieces together and scripting some stuff (again though, most of that can be put onto Dust's architecture.)

So, even if one guy was putting in two days of work every week or two, assembling some stuff and looking through the submissions, it would be taking us a lot further forward than the locked door.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Tenebria Gallentis
Whitewash Holdings
#1548 - 2016-01-28 13:25:50 UTC
WIS is a cool idea but something that would probably get old really quick. What would be nice to see however, is not "walking" but something to give the stations (and other structures) some depth. Right now, the station is just a big model floating in space (that you can occasionally see through). I think stations should be more grand than it currently is.

just a few ideas:

  • docking/undocking should be a big deal. Realistically, you would need to be provisioned a CQ and parking space when you dock. Something feels wrong about letting you dock/undock 10 times in a row within a span of a minute. a good docking animation would also be nice (imagine shooting a docking ship while the gates close and your missiles hit the gate).
  • it just makes sense for stations to have finite capacity. You need parking space for all those ships (most players have multiple ships too). Same goes for personal/corp hangars/cargo. I think space should be rented out to players (subject to availability) and make a time limited guest hangar where people can do repairs etc. This would make some stations more favorable than others (considering space, location, services, inhabitants etc). This will also prevent some systems from having too many residents.
  • Have simulators in stations so we can practice flying our ships against NPC targets without risking our ship.
  • I don't see the reason why we have the guest list in the station. Unless you own the station, it doesn't make sense to have access to this information (I also don't believe local should list all people in system for the same reasons). A video feed or "window" to the outside of the station would make more sense.
  • I agree that windows and menus are quicker and make tasks/chores easier. However, they don't need to look ugly or dated. One idea is to make aura to be more like jarvis and accessible through some sort of interface (like a visor?). We can connect to station services or open contextual menus depending on what we are looking at (useful for combat too!). I know, its essentially asking for a revamp in the UI (which I think eve badly needs).
  • phyiscal bodies are of little significance to capsuleers IMHO. We change bodies just like we change clothes and there is no real incentive for players to see each other face to face (aside taking photos and throwing potshots at the ******* who blew your ship). So while I think the idea of a common area or inviting people to your CQ is cool, a personal CQ is good enough. I do like the idea of gambling out my ISK, but doesn't mean I want to walk down to the casino every time I have the urge. but...
  • What would be cool is have important events in eve be in some sort of in game auditorium (limited seats, hence limited tickets - limit 1 per account or representatives by player vote or lucky draw). Players can do "whatever they want" inside the auditorium but must obey some rules (cannot enter stage unless called or cannot interrupt speaker) or be shoved out by guards (creating a scene... content?). Video feed can also be streamed in youtube. point of this is making players more involved in releases/announcements so they can react on the spot.
  • not related to structures but... more cockpit like flight controls please!! also, would be nice if there isn't any concept of up or down in eve - in space there is no "right way up"
  • have some space radio station (player or ccp operated)
  • employ a real person as concord police director. So he can make a campaign against evil, at least what he thinks evil - CONCORDE may have its own agenda... players can also call in and report suspicious activity so the police can be ready (at their discretion). Of course, to balance this out, police should have limited resources and not be invincible (at least in low sec).. it just feels dumb that pirates can perform the same offense over and over again in the same area. They should be more creative (or in low sec, use overwhelming force, to scare the police away) to continue operating. For example, police could be waiting to ambush a small gate camp in low sec and strike as soon as they pounce. Of course this needs a lot of thinking to balance things out but I think everyone can agree that CONCORDE is really dumb and useless in preventing crimes - some level of competency will keep pirates on their toes.


sorry if my english is bad and for the wall of text.
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
#1549 - 2016-01-28 14:18:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Amber Starview wrote:
People talk about time and resources like its a major thing to make a bigger room than what we already have
We could have a tool to submit player designed assets.
Then CCP can request improvements (That can be done with notes attached to reference points from the asset) or discard it with a short reason.
Then it is a matter of putting the pieces together and scripting some stuff (again though, most of that can be put onto Dust's architecture.)

So, even if one guy was putting in two days of work every week or two, assembling some stuff and looking through the submissions, it would be taking us a lot further forward than the locked door.


I am not a game designer or developer, so bare with me, but I know few things (just common sense and watching here and there how games are made).
Lets see about implementing a bar into what we have now. Together with developing a tools for more WIS levels in future, when they are at it.

THE TECHNOLOGY:
We know CCP used quick prototyping earlier.
When actually commiting to something they use their own "homemade" CARBON framework to work on things.

THE IDEA:
One lead/concept artist working together closely with one game/level designer could form a frame to the team.
When their concept is prepared and thought out, they have testing engine, and could quick prototype in it with the help of 1 programmer. That is 3 people on the concept, design phase. As we seen CCP can do that. With bar there is not much to do really. They have done that in the past.

THE COMMITMENT:
But then is the craziest part and most dificult, to commit to implement something. How to do that? Lets for a moment assume someone gave them "Green Light". They think it will be done in the engine, with money CCP have and they will acquire new people to do that.

EXPANDING:
They would need to add to the team (already consisting of 3 people, 2 if you exclude prototypist) at least:

- one modeler,
- one character animator/rigger,
- one artist arranging textures and texturing UI, 3D tiles,
- five engine programmers (graphic, script, sound, UI, structure) (To modify existing ones (if they exist) and implement new features to CARBON framework, like buying/selling stuff from NPC, affecting/arranging player owned locations, multicharacter environment, media streaming, opening/closing doors, interactions between players. They would have to actually learn to make/modify all tools for creating bar/other levels in future.)
- one text scripter to work out how game would communicate with player thru messages,
- one level designer to work with levels and tools.
- one tester to test it all and debug.
- one QA guy.

...so at least 14-15 people core team. And some auxiliary guys also, sound and video guys could work as auxiliaries and constantly make content when the rest is created, and after it is all created. We have seen SCOPE videos. Auxiliary would have to work constantly, even after all is created.

THE SOON(tm):
A lot of stuff happening, while the team is working on the framework and design of the levels. But then, days, months, years(?) later...

THE DELIVERY, AND AFTERMATCH:
After shipping all structures designed into actual game build that team could be reduced to:

- one game designer
- one level designer acting also as tester,
- one main programmer to work on occasional bugs in the framework code, repairing stuff.

The rest fired, working on different game.

We would have our bar, and even more in future.

But would they have our money?
Jenshae Chiroptera
#1550 - 2016-01-28 14:18:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Tenebria Gallentis wrote:
  • ... simulators ..
  • Basically. A lot of what you suggest would make EVE more realistic but far more tedious.
    Nana Skalski wrote:
    ...so at least 14-15 people core team.
    Okay, I am going to have to use Second Life as an example, because it is the only one I know of where there is use of submitted assets and tools for the players to implement them. (Not exactly what I describe but close enough for demonstration purposes).

    Here is the basic avatar.
    This is an example, of what one looks like with a set of new textures and a hair object attached.

    That is all user generated (it is possible to strip it all off and get back to the basic AV) and does not include any of the new meshes that can just completely overwrite everything in appearance.

    Now ... tell me again just how many CCP staff would be needed to tie some stuff together and put it into a Dust setting?

    CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

    Not even once

    EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

    Nana Skalski
    Taisaanat Kotei
    #1551 - 2016-01-28 14:36:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
    Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
    Tenebria Gallentis wrote:
  • ... simulators ..
  • Basically. A lot of what you suggest would make EVE more realistic but far more tedious.
    Nana Skalski wrote:
    ...so at least 14-15 people core team.
    Okay, I am going to have to use Second Life as an example, because it is the only one I know of where there is use submitted assets and tools for the players to implement them.

    Here is the basic avatar.
    This is an example, of what one looks like with a set of new textures and a hair object attached.

    That is all user generated (it is possible to strip it all off and get back to the basic AV) and does not include any of the new meshes that can just completely overwrite everything in appearance.

    Now ... tell me again just how many CCP staff would be needed to tie some stuff together and put it into a Dust setting?

    Ah, and this textures come from where? Models from where? Poses from where? Interactions and technology to bind it all from where? Do you think CCP would allow players to make it all? Silly you... Lol
    Jenshae Chiroptera
    #1552 - 2016-01-28 14:47:09 UTC
    Nana Skalski wrote:
    Ah, and this textures come from where? Models from where? Poses from where? Interactions and technology to bind it all from where? Do you think CCP would allow players to make it all? Silly you... Lol
    Textures - players.
    Model (mesh) - same default one.
    Poses - players
    Interactions and technology (guessing you mean scripts) - players.

    Now, how can it be:

    Textures -> uploaded to an album for CCP by categories and different sort criteria.
    Models -> same as above
    Poses / animations -> they can be done in a series of numbers with a code, **

    ** Such as (right hand and right foot) "rh-9.5.6,10.7.7,11.9.8 rf-3.2.4,3.2.5,4.2.6", which would describe the hand moving in three directions but faster in one and the foot moving upward. Time can also be added to that.
    The point being is that it would be a plain text file that is uploaded and can be run on either end to see the animations that it makes to the avatar.

    CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

    Not even once

    EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

    Nana Skalski
    Taisaanat Kotei
    #1553 - 2016-01-28 15:08:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
    CCP would rather commit a team to work, than create a system when players would write obscene things on the textures, post them for review and CCP would need to still reviev them constantly.

    And this character animation with numbers, wouldnt that be similar to stic animation?

    And to add all features that would affect their framework would need a lot of work also.

    Sooo, its not so easy, and that is not actually a hard part, the hard part is the upper management and marketing guys, they actually would need to make it and make cash on it.
    Jenshae Chiroptera
    #1554 - 2016-01-28 15:15:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
    Nana Skalski wrote:
    ... than create a system when players would write obscene things on the textures, ...
    If they got no response out of CCP, the joke would wear thin quickly and it is pretty easy to check that the same image isn't uploaded repeatedly.
    Optical Character Recognition can go some way to automatically highlighting anything that looks like writing.
    Nana Skalski wrote:
    And this character animation with numbers, wouldnt that be similar to stic animation?
    That is the general idea of how the skeleton in avatars works.
    Nana Skalski wrote:
    And to add all features that would affect their framework would need a lot of work also.
    Nope, most game assets are built in third party software, such as Blender.
    I am talking about hosting it. Like imgur hosts pictures into albums then you can view and download them.

    As to cash, someone is still making clothes that no one really looks at for micro-transactions, a boost in those type of sales would no doubt be desired.

    CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

    Not even once

    EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

    Captain IQ
    Innocent Traders Ltd
    #1555 - 2016-01-28 15:53:02 UTC
    WiS through something like Steam Workshop, obviously closely moderated since this is Eve full of Eve players.

    Love the portal idea too, just another instance.
    Nana Skalski
    Taisaanat Kotei
    #1556 - 2016-01-28 17:14:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
    If you would like it to be implemented and integrated with framework, this gallery of sorts, stil these around 16 people would need to work on it sufficiently long, from concept to the integration into framework and engine. And all these pattern recognitions, all these moderations, rewievs, it does not make itself if CCP will not do that, and I dont really know how much really people would need to work on it constantly after shipping. And you know that CCP would like to do rewievs and moderation of everything because they tell a story of EVE online, not sims online.

    Maybe you have made one 3D model in your life, one animation, maybe more. I made few models, I painted textures for few mods that I created for myself in GTA3, Models were awfully not optimized for any game, textures were too silly, animation that I made was awful, and I would never post something that to CCP because it would not be worth it. But, I know a lot of people who would make something awful and still post it. Jesus, you sshould have seen SL cities, some character models, And I know there are few skilled players in the community, but they would need still work in correct setting. Not like this.

    Or, assuming that you, potenitial EVE influencing player artist (I am not talking about someone in partcular) would really want to see some "great" models, like premium quality big breasted shemale Sansha slaves with swollen penile "attachments", or maybe some bestality action with Fedos, then I dont judge you my fellow gamer, but EVE is not a place for it. This way please ( ͠° ͟ʖ ͡°)/---> SL

    And for anyone who does not consider that history can sometimes repeat itself.

    Quote:
    The prototype itself has been finished and has been presented internally to the company stakeholders, the CSM and finally to the company as a whole. The feedback from that was overwhelmingly positive.
    Jenshae Chiroptera
    #1557 - 2016-01-28 20:38:14 UTC
    Nana Skalski wrote:
    .... still these around 16 people would ...
    You do know how development work is often split, right?
    This week I worked on four different projects.
    Different skills are required at different times.

    There is also the simple principle that 1 person is 16x slower than 16 people but 1 person doing a day this week and another person doing a day next week and so on is one hell of a lot more development than has been going on for the past 5 years.

    CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

    Not even once

    EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

    Nana Skalski
    Taisaanat Kotei
    #1558 - 2016-01-28 23:24:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
    1 person will not do everything. There are no workers who would do and do well a job for 16 different people with different specialized skills. Even 5 people with specialized skills, even three. And sometimes they should all work together, teamed in one room to communicate.

    New people because I considered not to affect other development teams too much.

    I know some people dont need to work from beginning to the end on this, but their work timespan should overlap in some point, to allow some degree of flexibility in project, for unexpected problems with framework for example, but that flexibility should rather be in technical field, nowhere else, all should be realised with a certain scheme and to the point, as to not make it another WoD. No feature creep, no rethinking everything from scrap, fast prototyping is for elimination of flawed ideas, and prototyper should know what framework is capable of.
    Jenshae Chiroptera
    #1559 - 2016-01-29 00:13:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
    Nana Skalski wrote:
    1 person will not do everything. There are no workers who would do and do well a job for 16 different people with different specialized skills. ..f.
    Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
    ... 1 person doing a day this week and another person doing a day next week and so on ...
    Are you just arguing for the sake of it now?

    CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

    Not even once

    EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

    Khergit Deserters
    Crom's Angels
    #1560 - 2016-01-29 00:24:59 UTC
    Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
    Amber Starview wrote:
    People talk about time and resources like its a major thing to make a bigger room than what we already have
    We could have a tool to submit player designed assets.
    Then CCP can request improvements (That can be done with notes attached to reference points from the asset) or discard it with a short reason.
    Then it is a matter of putting the pieces together and scripting some stuff (again though, most of that can be put onto Dust's architecture.)

    So, even if one guy was putting in two days of work every week or two, assembling some stuff and looking through the submissions, it would be taking us a lot further forward than the locked door.

    Actually that sounds like a really good idea that could work. People would do it, too. Look how many 3rd party tools Eve players have independently developed already.