These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Balancing bumping and looting mechanics

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2016-01-26 11:21:19 UTC
Actually that reminds me, I've had a question I've been wanting to ask the nullsec groups....

I understand you can only jump a freighter into lowsec at the outskirts of highsec, then you have to "slowboat"/gate it to highsec. Once you undock from your station (say, Jita), you can jump back out again. But, why not have some of your alts ship goods to the edge of highsec so your freighter only has to go through one gate? Like, get a bunch of DST's to ship stuff to the highsec system bordering low, then freighter it from there? Seems like a safer venture than going all the way to Jita with the freighter.

Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#22 - 2016-01-26 14:50:09 UTC
Khan Wrenth wrote:
Actually that reminds me, I've had a question I've been wanting to ask the nullsec groups....

I understand you can only jump a freighter into lowsec at the outskirts of highsec, then you have to "slowboat"/gate it to highsec. Once you undock from your station (say, Jita), you can jump back out again. But, why not have some of your alts ship goods to the edge of highsec so your freighter only has to go through one gate? Like, get a bunch of DST's to ship stuff to the highsec system bordering low, then freighter it from there? Seems like a safer venture than going all the way to Jita with the freighter.


I don't really deal with logistics but I would guess size matter in that case. Even after bulkhead, you can put a few DST worth of cargo in a freighter.
Jennifer en Marland
Shiny Violent Killing Toys
Astral Battles
#23 - 2016-01-26 15:46:26 UTC
It seems silly and nonsensical that almost every method of tackling a neutral ship in highsec will get you concorded...but bumping allows you to indefinitely stop a freighter warping with no penalty.

Even if this contradiction were resolved, freighter ganking is far from in trouble. Gankers just need to buy tags to get their sec status above -5, and then either camp a gate, waiting for freighters to come through (I've seen this done before), or just warp to the gate as a target is about to jump through. Given how rich Code and Goons are, buying tags shouldn't be any problem for them...and other groups can still make a big profit from successfully ganking a well-chosen target.

Army of dolls stole all your perfect imperfections.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#24 - 2016-01-26 16:25:28 UTC
Jennifer en Marland wrote:
It seems silly and nonsensical that almost every method of tackling a neutral ship in highsec will get you concorded...but bumping allows you to indefinitely stop a freighter warping with no penalty.

Even if this contradiction were resolved, freighter ganking is far from in trouble. Gankers just need to buy tags to get their sec status above -5, and then either camp a gate, waiting for freighters to come through (I've seen this done before), or just warp to the gate as a target is about to jump through. Given how rich Code and Goons are, buying tags shouldn't be any problem for them...and other groups can still make a big profit from successfully ganking a well-chosen target.
Capital ships are incredibly powerful, yet this is balanced by their weakness of being vulnerable to smaller ships and thus they require a support fleet. In highsec, that "fleet" basically amounts to a single webbing ship, but the premise is still the same. If you want the benefits of flying the most powerful hauler in the game you must accept the downsides that come along with that.

Besides, a bunch of neutral Catalysts sitting on gates blapping freighters is significantly less engaging game play than we have now. At least the bump-tackling allows a freighter pilot some time to call for backup from their friends or various white knights and a chance for the "good guys" to get the -10s in transit or gank the bumpers. I don't think (ab)using the tag system to obsolete the security status part of the Crimewatch system that CPP spent much time making would be good game design.

If CCP makes any changes to bumping (which I think they probably should long-term), it won't be to just make freighters immune. More likely they will add a new interdiction method for tackling capital ships in highsec, perhaps as part of their desire to allow other capital ships back into highsec. But until then, freighters will continue to be vulnerable to bumping just like every other capital ship in every other sector of space in the game. This isn't a problem though; there are several alternative haulers that do not have this weakness, and those in the know can move even freighters with almost perfect (98.8%) safety.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
KickAss Tivianne
Lohengrin Legion
#25 - 2016-01-26 16:43:50 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
KickAss Tivianne wrote:


That was for Iain Cariaba... seems to roll with big corps such as Goonswarm Federation, so I can see why in Highsec he might not get ganked.


You think Goonswarm, which typically has at least half a dozen wardecs against them, is given some sort of leeway in high sec? Lol



His KB shows he hangs with them.... he is not part of the corp. Due to the reason you mentioned.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#26 - 2016-01-26 16:45:20 UTC
Absolutely nothing need be done about a so called "broken" mechanic that can be avoided with a T1 frigates with a couple of webs.

If bumping is "broken", then webbing to warp and MWD+cloak is moreso.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#27 - 2016-01-26 17:08:08 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
TBH, I wish people would stop constantly asking for nerfs to freighter manufacturers. Have you looked at the margins on those ******* things?

They could stand to explode 2-4x as often as they do.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
KickAss Tivianne
Lohengrin Legion
#28 - 2016-01-26 17:15:27 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
KickAss Tivianne wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
KickAss Tivianne wrote:
Shallanna Yassavi wrote:
Safe logoff gets you away from the bumper if nobody's taking a shot at you, because there's no combat timer. That said, you're not allowed to just bump someone without taking a shot at them, or a ransom demand.


RIght, but the gankers do shoot them... they send in a sacrifice ship to agress. Then the freighter warps, and then they scan them down.... then they gank.

Logging off is not any help now days.

Apparently you're unaware of a simple little fact. Freighter pilots who have scouts, webbing escorts, and avoid autopiloting don't get bumped and ganked. Unless they're really unlucky, a freighter isn't going to get bumped in the less than 5s it takes a webbing escort to lock and apply webs.

As a person who's had the same Charon for years now, I say there's nothing wrong with bumping. You just have to stop expecting to pilot a capital ship without an escort.



As a person who has seen countless Charons being bumped by a Mach that can go 2000k/s, unless you get a good warp in placement, once you are starting to be bumped, it is really difficult to get away. Especially with bulkheads, which decreases your agility, but giving you that much needed HP. Then even enter the 2nd bumper that comes in. I have seen that for high value cargo. Or they must just be bored. Once you get bumped, chances of getting away is reduced.

BTW, they have scouts also to watch and then the Mach show up on gate and jump though with you.

Im glad you have good luck with things! But that is more the exception then the rule.

I underlined the key point in your statement.

Yes, once you start getting bumped you're pretty much hosed. However, the fact your totally overlooking in the attempt to justify this terribad idea is that the 2000m/s Machariel cannot get up to speed and get to the Charon to bump it in the less than 5s it takes a webbing frigate to apply webs to a freighter. How long you can get bumped is totally irrelevant to the fact that, if you're flying smart, it's nearly impossible to start getting bumped.

According to EveHQ's ship fitter, a Hyena with 3 t2 webs in the mids, which will insta-warp any freighter, can lock a freighter in just over a second, then apply the webs out to 26km with Electronic Attack Ships skill trained to 4. For most gates, that's enough range to apply webs to your freighter if it arrives in system on the opposite side of the gate from the hyena. For the regional gates that have the jump in point further away, the freighter holds gate cloak while the hyena burns back to gate. That 2000m/s Mach you're so afraid of simply cannot get up to speed and get to you before the freighter is gone.

This is why bumping is balanced. Yes, once the bump starts you can't really get out of it, but if you bring escorts for your highsec capital ship, it's nearly impossible for the bump to start.



That is a good setup, but I wonder how a freighter with Bulkheads adding additional mass which reduces the ability to align. If that web ship could get you out in time. The bumper fit Mach with Inertia stabs, and nanofiber modules do move quickly. OR I have see smaller but yet faster Stabber fleet Issues tricked out for speed, even faster then a Mach, to get that initial bump in till the Machs show up. (This happens often now when they have large numbers out bumping, perhaps they are adapting to the webber).

Look bumps happen when you don't have a webber. Ok... Shame on them. However they should not be allowed to bump infinitely till they get a ransom, (which may or may not actually save them) or ganked. To the person who asked about the numbers.. Yes I've seen it.. many Anti-Gankers have seen it. Then you get reports of other bumps on other gates, they can hold them till they got around to them.

I was there When one of the CSM members was ganked in the Uedama area. They ganked another freighter they were holding, keeping the CSM member bumped longer. I don't set a timer from each bump, but i've seen some borderline harassment times.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#29 - 2016-01-26 17:21:45 UTC
KickAss Tivianne wrote:

That is a good setup, but I wonder how a freighter with Bulkheads adding additional mass which reduces the ability to align. If that web ship could get you out in time.


I don't wonder, because I've actually done it.

Done correctly, if the Machariel pilot even has time to lock you then he has the reflexes of a hummingbird. Even with bulkheads.

Web to warp is only barely not perfect. Lag alone keeps it from an unbeatable trick.


Quote:

However they should not be allowed to bump infinitely till they get a ransom, (which may or may not actually save them) or ganked.


Why not? If you fail to defend yourself, you should suffer the consequences of being at the mercy of the other player. What you're saying is like telling me that I shouldn't be able to scram and web a pod until the guy self destructs or sings me a few bars of Old Man River.

Too bad. I can, and it's absolutely permitted gameplay. And what's more, it's your own fault for being caught. You can either bite the bullet and self destruct, or you get to sit there until I'm done playing with you.

Deal with it.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#30 - 2016-01-26 17:36:45 UTC
KickAss Tivianne wrote:

As a person who has seen countless Charons being bumped...


For every freighter you've seen bumped, you have seen hundreds more pass through unscathed. Its only a relatively small amount of freighters that get ganked and only in a few systems. So if anything, ganking should be made easier. This would actually reward good piloting and making friends.

The amount of organisation and resources it takes to gank a freighter is no small feat where as all the freighter pilot has to do to avoid the gank is:

Not be AFK.
Bring one friend.
Take another route.
Go to another market.
Take several trips.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
KickAss Tivianne
Lohengrin Legion
#31 - 2016-01-26 17:40:08 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:

Why do these proposals never have anything to do with balance even when they are claimed to? These proposals are almost always just ways to isolate players from hostile interactions, more specifically ways to allow a player to solo pilot a capital ship with no fear for interdiction. How does giving freighters a button to escape PvP with no help and no effort make anything better?

If you want to replace bumping you need start from the ground up. Design a system where capital ships in highsec can be tackled without CONCORD insta-blapping the aggressor. Then add in ways for the friends of the freighter pilot to rescue the ship, which in turn can be countered by the other side. Then you have a proper game mechanic which still maintains the intended trade-offs for flying the best-in-class hauler, while allowing for more interesting game play to develop than the current status quo.

So -1 on the unoriginal "make freighters immune to bumping" suggestion.

I fail to see the problem here. If the Catalysts are already criminal you can just shoot them. If they eject the loot into another jetcan, you can just take the loot if you want it, just like you can take the loot from the original wreck if you want it. If you want that loot you are intended by the game mechanics to have to take a suspect flag for doing so just like the gankers do. Why should the game be changed so you can hide behind the protection of CONCORD while interfering with intended piratical game play?

If you want the loot you have "to risk it" as you say. HTFU and just take it and suffer the consequences of a suspect flag like the gankers do every day.

So -1.

Yup, that's exactly what we need: more NPC enforced consequences on intended game play. Look, if you don't like gankers then shoot them. Ganking has been nerfed so hard that it is trivial to protect yourself from almost all risk to them in today's highsec. We do not need more penalties or consequences that are enforced only by NPCs so other players can pay less attention to the game and spend their time in highsec watching Netflix.

Perhaps there are some changes that can make the granularity of security status have more meaning, but piling on more NPC-enforced consequences does nothing other than make an intended profession more tedious. Any ideas should involve other players. So, -1.

Total score: -3. Suicide ganking is intended game play. If you have new ideas on how to stimulate conflict between criminals and law enforcement, or make the conflict more interesting many people would like to hear it. If you are just going to come to the forums as ask that the game be tilted in your favour and that the NPCs do all the work for you in defeating the criminals, you can keep that whining for the Anti-Ganking channel and stop wasting everyone's time.


So for your first comment...
I am not saying make freighters immune to bumping... Where Did I say that? They can be bumped for a while, but there comes a point when its just harassment and maybe they don't even have a gank fleet out. Just trying to take money from a captive audance. Right there at the gate with Concord there. Seems stilly that if someone repeatedly started hitting you your car with their car at a police check point, that might flag a response. I know Eve is not Real life (I know... crazy), so I don't expect the same responce, but If loot a can, regardless of what is in it, I become suspect, but I bump a Billion ISK frighter for 15-60 minutes, nothing happens????

I give your comment a -1 as well.

2. If a criminal cat scoops loot from a freighter it ganks. and then throws it out in a can. it should be yellow, and who ever picks it up is yellow. Since all the cats that are ganking will be FR, who ever ends up scooping the STOLEN loot, should go yellow also. It should not be "free and clear" just cause they ejected it.

- 1 for you again sir.

Lastly, Ganking is alive and well. What has been removed are the exploits that people have found around the system. Please don't mistake a bug as a nerf. Yes, NPC enforcement in a already NPC enforced area. I know thats crazy also. If you don't like it go back to Null or low, and you'll do fine there. I am not saying protect from all risk, it is a balance, people seem to be missing that part. What is the Risk that a ganker in a Cata, has..? Risks a -10 security status? No, Risks a 2 million dollar ship. Slight Risk. Reward HIGH. Even if you add up a whole 30 person gank fleet 30 cats. 60 Million for a freighter that is worth 1 billion. Sometimes the freighter has nothing in it, which means they did it for the laughs, nothing else to loose. 60 million... make it back on the next freighter having 1 Billion. of loot. So yes, there must be a lower level or additional penalty for harden criminals.

Another -1 for you.

But I thank you for your responses. I hope we can find some middle ground!
KickAss Tivianne
Lohengrin Legion
#32 - 2016-01-26 17:45:05 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
KickAss Tivianne wrote:

As a person who has seen countless Charons being bumped...


For every freighter you've seen bumped, you have seen hundreds more pass through unscathed. Its only a relatively small amount of freighters that get ganked and only in a few systems. So if anything, ganking should be made easier. This would actually reward good piloting and making friends.

The amount of organisation and resources it takes to gank a freighter is no small feat where as all the freighter pilot has to do to avoid the gank is:

Not be AFK.
Bring one friend.
Take another route.
Go to another market.
Take several trips.


Those are all great points! I agree! However the bumping mechanic, if you happen to fall into the trap should not keep you in limbo for a long time. Either they have a gank fleet ready in 5-10 min.. and go for it... or let ya go. And if they do kill it... make the punishments for criminals get harder and harder and more expensive to recover from with tags etc...
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#33 - 2016-01-26 17:45:21 UTC
KickAss Tivianne wrote:
They can be bumped for a while, but there comes a point when its just harassment


No, there isn't.

Because the freighter pilot always has a way out of that, he's just unwilling to take it for whatever reason.


Quote:

Lastly, Ganking is alive and well.


Not really. It's mostly just solo ganks of untanked barges or autopiloting pods. The only two groups who can do it with any real effect anymore are huge, and they do it will frankly enormous SRPs. Hell, CODE operates at a loss, for crying out loud.


Quote:

I hope we can find some middle ground!


There is no middle ground, because what you want is not balance, it's a selfish desire for more safety where none is deserved.

You get nothing. Hell, if anything, the pendulum is about to swing against you, because you've had things your way for entirely too long now, and at the expense of the rest of the game.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#34 - 2016-01-26 17:47:27 UTC
KickAss Tivianne wrote:
However the bumping mechanic, if you happen to fall into the trap should not keep you in limbo for a long time.


Says who?

Quote:

Either they have a gank fleet ready in 5-10 min.. and go for it... or let ya go.


Nope. You do not get to dictate what they do with their player freedom. Either free yourself with a game mechanic, or accept that your death is deserved and just self destruct already.


Quote:

And if they do kill it... make the punishments for criminals get harder and harder and more expensive to recover from with tags etc...


No.

Theirs is the ONLY playstyle in highsec that has any consequences to begin with. They don't need anymore because you can't be asked to defend yourself halfway correctly.

Stop trying to have bad, lazy, sloppy play subsidized by the mechanics. People who play the game wrong are supposed to die.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#35 - 2016-01-26 18:49:45 UTC
"Just one more nerf."
Black Pedro
Mine.
#36 - 2016-01-26 18:50:22 UTC
KickAss Tivianne wrote:
I am not saying make freighters immune to bumping... Where Did I say that? They can be bumped for a while, but there comes a point when its just harassment and maybe they don't even have a gank fleet out.
You called for the introduction of a button for freighter pilots that allows them to auto-escape a bumper by pushing it. That is the very definition of "immunity".

There are already rules against harassment. If you feel "harassed", file a petition and ask CCP to step in.

But for the record, having your ship bumped or exploded in this PvP game is intended game play. You are not entitled to fly everywhere safely or unimpeded. Use the tools at your disposal to fly your freighter safely, or just fly something else.

KickAss Tivianne wrote:
2. If a criminal cat scoops loot from a freighter it ganks. and then throws it out in a can. it should be yellow, and who ever picks it up is yellow. Since all the cats that are ganking will be FR, who ever ends up scooping the STOLEN loot, should go yellow also. It should not be "free and clear" just cause they ejected it.
Just steal it. The loot is not safe until it is back in a station. This is the exact same situation the gankers face after exploding someone. If you want the loot, go take it. Otherwise, why should you be able to affect that loot without CONCORD intervening? More importantly, why should CCP exempt you from a mechanic that is designed to promote conflict and explosions?

I repeat, if you want that loot so bad, just go take it. There is nothing forbidding you from doing so.

KickAss Tivianne wrote:
Lastly, Ganking is alive and well.
Miner ganking is a former shadow of itself and near an all time low in the history of this game. Professional freighter pilots make almost 99% of their trips safely. Highsec has never been mechanically more safe than it is today.

There is no pressing need to add yet more safety to highsec.

KickAss Tivianne wrote:
What has been removed are the exploits that people have found around the system. Please don't mistake a bug as a nerf.
These are not exploits. They are what as known as "emergent game play" something that CCP likes to see take place in their PvP sandbox game. If they thought they were exploits, or unbalanced, they would fix them like they did with Hyperdunking. If CCP didn't want freighters to be vulnerable in highsec they would change some stats or even lock out all aggressive modules.

I guess I don't blame you for asking to have the rules re-written in your favour. It is a strategy that has worked before and will likely work again. I just don't see how you can do so with no sense of shame or recognition of what you are doing. I am very open to new suggestions that make the game better, but these suggestions of yours do nothing but dramatically increase safety for targets, and make more work for highsec aggressors without even a pretense to make a better game for all.

Go back to the drawing board and try to come up with something that's sole purpose isn't to stifle conflict and benefit you if you want to have any chance of it being implemented.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#37 - 2016-01-26 19:05:18 UTC
I was right, this *is* National Bad Ideas Day :(

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#38 - 2016-01-26 19:08:35 UTC
Bumblefck wrote:
I was right, this *is* National Bad Ideas Day :(

I see you are new here in Bad Idea Land , where every day is Bad Idea Day.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#39 - 2016-01-26 19:21:04 UTC
I'd actually be fine with cans jettisoned by criminals being blue just like their wrecks.

KickAss Tivianne wrote:

Those are all great points! I agree! However the bumping mechanic, if you happen to fall into the trap should not keep you in limbo for a long time. Either they have a gank fleet ready in 5-10 min.. and go for it... or let ya go.


Why not? Ships being held indefinitely for ransom or so others can get on the kill mail is not exclusive to freighters. Did it ever occur to you that the gankers are not the only thing keeping you in 'limbo'. Your attachment to your ship and its cargo is.

Do what the rest of us do. Call for back up, eject or self destruct.

KickAss Tivianne wrote:

And if they do kill it... make the punishments for criminals get harder and harder and more expensive to recover from with tags etc...

So your perception of balance is to nerf ganking until no one does it anymore?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#40 - 2016-01-26 19:35:20 UTC
As someone that feels quite impartial when it comes to the whole ganking thing:

Almost every hauler I see that gets ganked has not taken the necessary precautions to avoid it:
- overstuffed with valuables
- missing a webbing alt
- not scouting
- undertanking their ship
- not using instadock and undock BMs

When I see these people die, I think: "Good, they've just reduced the competition for competent haulers."

On the other hand, Eve is supposed to have some element of repercussion for your actions but the repercussions are negligible for the players doing the ganking and non-existent for players doing the bumping and carrying stolen property.

However I don't think OPs suggestions are workable (nor do I have suggestions of my own)

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager