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Dev blog: Skill trading in New Eden

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Max Kurtis
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#441 - 2016-01-19 07:38:07 UTC
Thank CCP ! my credit card is ready :) MOUAHAHAAHAHA
Annia Aurel
J-CORP
Goonswarm Federation
#442 - 2016-01-19 07:43:48 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
Rather than delete the skills option how would the OCD folks feel about a button that say' Do not show skills at 0'?

Then your sheet would be nice and clean but nothing would be removed.

m


Second best.

You know, if its still there, you know it and you feel compelled to train it and end up in the same situation as before.

Also, for some of us, our characters and what they ARE really matters. Its not so much about what they can DO. When I started out, I wanted to be a Caldari Achura Stargazer researcher. I was bound to travel the stars and discover technology. I am not complaining about how useless research skills are today (the argument that any skill was once wanted and useful when trained is somewhat valid). What I am saying is, things do change over the years. Achura Stargazer probably doesn't ring a bell anymore for most new folks. Today I see my character differently, too. It's not that I don't want her to research anymore, it's that I don't want her to be a researcher anymore. That's a difference. If that doesn't make any sense to you, good for you, then you are just not bothered by such subtleties.

The best solution imho would be a very rare skill reset (books ejected, points unallocated) that is open to any player at no additional cost every, say, two years. Like a neural remapping. But we wont get that, so the hopes of some were on this new contract with the MTX-devil.

Again, may I ask why one should not allow to forget skills at level zero. It does not create any difficult contingencies (as does the new mechanic required for handling of prerequisite skills), does not convey any in-game advantage to the player (on the contrary) and is probably implementable within the hour (hell, I'd fly to Iceland and code it myself if need be).

Still, good to see that someone from the CSM considers the point. Thank you and maybe you can bring the topic up.
Intentional Concord Bringer
Evil Rotten Bastards
#443 - 2016-01-19 07:46:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Intentional Concord Bringer
I suppose since the last time P2W came around it was called MonacleGate, this one ought to be called SPGate, eh?

Listen, CCP. Either charge me a sub fee or sell me golden trinkets, but don't expect to be able to do both and not get a ton of flack from those of us who have been around the block with you on this a few times.

I get it, CCP... you're in the business of making money. At the end of the day, despite everything you've ever said or done or said you would do - you're in business to make money. I think every EvE player can appreciate that. Your tactics, however, tend to leave much to be desired.

For instance, as far as I can tell from the comments on this dev blog and the ones from the last dev blog... 'overwhelming support' is, frankly, a mis-characterization of the facts. "Overwhelming concern' might have been a more appropriate characterization of the response in both threads - though it does seem outright disdain for the idea would be the more appropriate description.

Once again, CCP, you are breeding distrust amongst your players by choosing to poorly represent both the support for this idea and the real reasons behind it. Masking it as some attempts to 'help newer players' when, in reality, it is really all about getting new players to break open their wallet and hand you more money... isn't helping your cause.

When will you folks learn to simply be honest about your intentions? I think that's what really irks players here - not so much that your're finding inventive ways to soak more real life money out of your players... but that your being willfully misleading in your representation of that fact. Own it.

Me? I have no real dog in this fight - I think the idea is overall a bad one, but it won't generally affect me. All my toons are well above 6 figure SP and spending ISK or AUR for a paltry 150k (or any amount even) of SP just ins't even on my radar. Farming alts is also not on my radar so this 'feature' has little to no impact on my gameplay, aside from having to learn that a week old toon could possibly have a **** ton of SP and to bring more friends and bigger guns JIC.

So, choose a model and go with it - either subscriptions and long skills trains where experience and skills go hand in hand and it takes years to get to a point where you're good at anything, or no subs and p2w the sh!t out of EvE - but please quit trying to do both. It's a shameful practice and it really irks your player base... in case you hadn't noticed all the negative feedback.
Beta Maoye
#444 - 2016-01-19 07:52:44 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Beta Maoye wrote:
DJ Ghost Recon wrote:
The 300mill IS the cost of the time training, why would you need to factor that in again? That said we really do need an aur price for the extractors. The last real potential for catastrophic failure here is a bad price.
Because instant skill point injection has higher value than traditional skill point training.
No, it doesn't. The only cost of SP is the time training it, and this is a transfer of that time, thus the cost of that time is only factored once. The seller isn't providing any extra value that needs counted again.

If a player is presented with two options to increase his skill points by 500,000, first is an instant injection that priced as 300M, second is to use a quarter of PLEX time(185 hours), which is also valued as 300M, to train it up, a player will always choose the instant injection. These two options are not equal. The advantage of instant injection provides additional value to the player. The first option has a premium over the second option.
Deka Ekato
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#445 - 2016-01-19 08:08:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Deka Ekato
Sadly, I do not see any good come out of this idea for what's left of the player base, or even for possible new players. Sad
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#446 - 2016-01-19 08:12:48 UTC
Beta Maoye wrote:
If a player is presented with two options to increase his skill points by 500,000, first is an instant injection that priced as 300M, second is to use a quarter of PLEX time(185 hours), which is also valued as 300M, to train it up, a player will always choose the instant injection. These two options are not equal. The advantage of instant injection provides additional value to the player. The first option has a premium over the second option.
It really doesn't, because no SP is instant, all of it was produced the same way. Someone trained it the same way you would yourself and the only premium to consider is what you can get away with depending on how much supply there is. There is no second base cost of the time to account for.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#447 - 2016-01-19 08:14:21 UTC
Intentional Concord Bringer wrote:
I suppose since the last time P2W came around it was called MonacleGate, this one ought to be called SPGate, eh?
Stealth monocle master race post?
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#448 - 2016-01-19 08:18:45 UTC
Nice, gank alts for free. Off to calculate how many I need for cheap skiff ganks.

Evil RatKid
Beta Maoye
#449 - 2016-01-19 08:28:02 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Beta Maoye wrote:
If a player is presented with two options to increase his skill points by 500,000, first is an instant injection that priced as 300M, second is to use a quarter of PLEX time(185 hours), which is also valued as 300M, to train it up, a player will always choose the instant injection. These two options are not equal. The advantage of instant injection provides additional value to the player. The first option has a premium over the second option.
It really doesn't, because no SP is instant, all of it was produced the same way. Someone trained it the same way you would yourself and the only premium to consider is what you can get away with depending on how much supply there is. There is no second base cost of the time to account for.

The market will decide its true value.
Frank Pannon
Emerald Swine Escavations
#450 - 2016-01-19 08:31:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Frank Pannon
Picman wrote:
Well, I am completely against this wonderful Roll feature with SP transfers. Not sure where the forum is where people agreed this feature would be welcome, I must have visited the wrong forum all time.
In my opinion this feature is not here to make it easier for new characters. Compared to some years ago the game start has been made by far easier for newbies already.

The only reason why SP transfers will be introduced is CCP's wish to earn more money with the game.
CCP, if you really just want to give new players an easier start, then seed these empty skill injectors to npc market offers or even better, add them to the loot tables so that everyone can find them. This way they'd also be available, but there will be no additional dollars for you.
Pity I believe this would reduce your interest in this new feature to zero.

So as the SP transfer will come anyway, at least tell the truth that the only reason is to milk the cow and don't pretend you want to make it easier for anyone.

Best regards,
Picman


This will be an option, you do not have to participate, noone forces you.

CCP is a company, not a charity. They need money to pay employees, to develop, to keep this game running. I think we can all agree on that.

So if this feature enables some new players to catch up and enjoy the game, while at the same time gives another revenue source to CCP, than it is really a win-win situation.

I have yet to read an argument here, that would depict a serious threat to current "meta". But I keep reading.

All I ask is to keep an open mind.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#451 - 2016-01-19 08:37:05 UTC
Beta Maoye wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Beta Maoye wrote:
If a player is presented with two options to increase his skill points by 500,000, first is an instant injection that priced as 300M, second is to use a quarter of PLEX time(185 hours), which is also valued as 300M, to train it up, a player will always choose the instant injection. These two options are not equal. The advantage of instant injection provides additional value to the player. The first option has a premium over the second option.
It really doesn't, because no SP is instant, all of it was produced the same way. Someone trained it the same way you would yourself and the only premium to consider is what you can get away with depending on how much supply there is. There is no second base cost of the time to account for.

The market will decide its true value.
That's actually my point, there is no flat price for the service of selling your time, thus no 2nd counting of that time. The profit on selling your time is what the market will bear, nothing else.
Zozoll Neblyn
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#452 - 2016-01-19 08:40:16 UTC
I forsee an increase in the price of "Prototype Cerebral Accelerators". Since the quickest way to get skill points fast would be to start a new alt and skill it for a month or two (depending what the minimum SP is to be able to extract.)



Frank Pannon wrote:


So if this feature enables some new players to catch up and enjoy the game, while at the same time gives another revenue source to CCP, than it is really a win-win situation.

I have yet to read an argument here, that would depict a serious threat to current "meta". But I keep reading.

All I ask is to keep an open mind.



It allows rich new players to experience it, lol. Or established characters with lots of ISK to rapidly build up alts.

Zakks
CSR NAVY
Citizen's Star Republic
#453 - 2016-01-19 08:40:53 UTC
When do I get to buy my Golden bullet$?
Arithron
107th Suicide Kings
#454 - 2016-01-19 08:47:54 UTC
What you are all forgetting is to factor in the cost, in Aurum (so ultimately isk --> RL$$), of a player buying the extractor.

The price for the extractor and the calculated cost of training the SP, plus the availability, will determine the cost of the injector. There is a minimum cost to this, which will be significantly higher than 300 mil isk. This is due to the cost of PLEX-and also due to the cost of characters on the CB.

In order to entice players to sell SP, there must be a profitable return. Also, I can see isk devaluation occurring as SP selling will bring more iskies into the game (although CCP will ultimately profit due to aurum and PLEX sales). Devaluation will increase PLEX prices etc etc....expect to see a pretty wild cycle occurring.

Expect also large increases on characters in the CB, who will be valued on the number of SP that can be harvested from them.
Memphis Baas
#455 - 2016-01-19 08:52:39 UTC
As a side-effect, you're bringing the skill donors and the skill buyers to Jita, because carrying injectors in cargoholds is a recipe for disaster. It probably won't have the volume that PLEX trading has, but the SP can't be donated by trade alts, nor can it be injected by alts. The mains have to come to Jita. Hopefully you're prepared for the increased load on the node.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#456 - 2016-01-19 08:52:48 UTC
Arithron wrote:
What you are all forgetting is to factor in the cost, in Aurum (so ultimately isk --> RL$$), of a player buying the extractor.

The price for the extractor and the calculated cost of training the SP, plus the availability, will determine the cost of the injector. There is a minimum cost to this, which will be significantly higher than 300 mil isk. This is due to the cost of PLEX-and also due to the cost of characters on the CB.

In order to entice players to sell SP, there must be a profitable return. Also, I can see isk devaluation occurring as SP selling will bring more iskies into the game (although CCP will ultimately profit due to aurum and PLEX sales). Devaluation will increase PLEX prices etc etc....expect to see a pretty wild cycle occurring.

Expect also large increases on characters in the CB, who will be valued on the number of SP that can be harvested from them.
No one's forgetting, we just don't have a price to factor since somehow between 2 blogs we don't even have a ballpark figure. Also I'm sure it's been explicitly mentioned in recent exchanges.

Interestingly I wonder how many non-training accounts are out there which could increase the amount of SP being generated without consuming additional PLEX. Further I wonder how much PLEX will get introduced from people trying to buy these with PLEX.
Arithron
107th Suicide Kings
#457 - 2016-01-19 08:59:19 UTC
Sign the petition here to prevent 80mil+ characters being able to buy more SP!

We don't need too, we are SP rich Lol

Petition to have upper limit on SP injector use



Any vet who whines obviously has your iskies in his/her sights. A couple of the larger alliances seem quite happy with this implementation.
shaun 27
Brothers of Tyr
Goonswarm Federation
#458 - 2016-01-19 09:09:15 UTC  |  Edited by: shaun 27
Frank Pannon wrote:
Picman wrote:
Well, I am completely against this wonderful Roll feature with SP transfers. Not sure where the forum is where people agreed this feature would be welcome, I must have visited the wrong forum all time.
In my opinion this feature is not here to make it easier for new characters. Compared to some years ago the game start has been made by far easier for newbies already.

The only reason why SP transfers will be introduced is CCP's wish to earn more money with the game.
CCP, if you really just want to give new players an easier start, then seed these empty skill injectors to npc market offers or even better, add them to the loot tables so that everyone can find them. This way they'd also be available, but there will be no additional dollars for you.
Pity I believe this would reduce your interest in this new feature to zero.

So as the SP transfer will come anyway, at least tell the truth that the only reason is to milk the cow and don't pretend you want to make it easier for anyone.

Best regards,
Picman


This will be an option, you do not have to participate, noone forces you.

CCP is a company, not a charity. They need money to pay employees, to develop, to keep this game running. I think we can all agree on that.

So if this feature enables some new players to catch up and enjoy the game, while at the same time gives another revenue source to CCP, than it is really a win-win situation.

I have yet to read an argument here, that would depict a serious threat to current "meta". But I keep reading.

All I ask is to keep an open mind.


Problem is though new players catching up their will be 2 classes. one with money and one with not and it then becomes a game of keeping up with the joneses. Eve has got a demographic problem with sp but this is not the way to go about it. It will create alot more problems then solve.

Yeah i will bet their will be a slight increase in numbers when this hits but it will be short lived because i feel it will bring the wrong type of person to the game, which is people who come along chip in few skills and eventually get bored because they been their done that got to that top lvl and leave again.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#459 - 2016-01-19 09:09:57 UTC
Dosperado wrote:
This announcement is the lowest point in the whole history of EVE Online.

Just cancelled my EVE subscription after 13 years of faithfulness.

I don't want to play Pay2Win games and I will never come back.

Good bye to all I played with in the last couple of years. And no, you can't have my stuff!

I will announce the destruction of my highsec carrier later in another thread...

Can I have your stuff skill points?
Reiisha
#460 - 2016-01-19 09:13:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Reiisha
Not sure how to feel about this. If this goes through i'd at least like to see injectors not giving any SP at all over 150m or so.

This has the benefit of keeping the price of the injectors down in the long run. There's enough trillionaires who would otherwise simply buy it all up and max their characters instantly.

Skills are a core part of EVE, in that it forces you to plan ahead and be prepared. Introducing this kind of mechanic makes skills feel somewhat irrelevant.

Another negative effect i'm fairly sure people haven't thought about - Your account gets hacked (somehow), and some Chinese dude drains ALL your SP. Now you not only have the isk flow to track, but may have to explain to people how they are being 'robbed' of SP they bought legitimately off the market....

Botters who can now quickly reskill new accounts and keep on going.

Seems like this hasn't really been thought through....

Edit: Can someone from CCP give us the reasoning behind this 'feature' outside of 'we got drunk last night and decided this was a good idea'?

If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...