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New camera now in opt-in Beta on TQ

First post First post
Author
Aaril
Interstellar Consulting Group
#81 - 2016-01-04 19:06:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Aaril
1) First, and most important, the "old" tracking camera needs to still have a button to select it. Not having it as an option means most of the time I will not even think to enable the new cameras to see how they feel in different situations.

2) Is the orbit camera purely meant for videos? If so the dampened zoom is OK (could definitely be toned down a little regardless). If not, I am not sure what the point of this camera is, as it is inferior in every way to the tracking camera for combat.

3) The tactical camera absolutely needs ZERO dampening/inertia on the zoom and when panning.

4) First person mode needs both mouse control and the ability to look around independent of the current direction.
CCP Optimal
C C P
C C P Alliance
#82 - 2016-01-05 15:19:34 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#83 - 2016-01-05 15:35:17 UTC
Siobhan MacLeary
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
#84 - 2016-01-05 22:01:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Siobhan MacLeary
I'm not sure if this is strictly related, but ever since enabling the camera beta on my offset multi-monitor setup my capacitor readout will move from where I anchor it when I dock/undock.

I have a 1680x1050 main screen and a 1280x1024 secondary to the right, and am spanning the EVE client across the two at a resolution of 2960x1050. The capacitor readout will either move itself as far as posibble to the left or right of the main screen when I undock from a station, instead of remaining relatively centered; this issue only occurs on a multi-monitor client with the camera beta enabled. It seems like it's trying to recenter itself relative to the total resolution at times, and other times the readout fails to offset itself from the bottom-left corner.

E: This is on TQ, have not tested on Sisi.

E2: Also, zoom level seems to be consistently reset to very far distance on gate/wormhole jump.

Point out to me a person who has been harmed by an AFK cloaker and I will point out a person who has no business playing this game.” - CCP Soundwave

Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#85 - 2016-01-07 17:38:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Daemun Khanid


<- Reads the list of changes and glares at Optimal...

Wtf for? Based on what I just read you aren't listening to any of it. We don't want a "set as interest action" that's constantly requiring clicks and button presses and we don't need cameras that orbit around invisible points in space with FOV's that make it look like we're looking through a fisheye lens so we all get space sick. All I read there is "we made our horrible changes less broken (pats self on back)"

The effects of the camera bobbing and drifting all over the place isn't cinematic, it's obnoxious. The track button should line objects up with the player ship so we can SEE what direction we're looking AND IT SHOULD STAY THERE! No drifting around, no panning no BS. Instead the camera just swoops around and places the object "somewhere" in the field of view and then proceeds to drift all over the place as the ship moves around. Sometimes it's off on the right of my screen, sometimes it's the left, sometimes it's below me, sometimes its above me. Not ONCE during all that clicking did I ever feel like I was actually looking AT what I clearly want to look AT. It appears to be a result of the camera orbiting around some arbitrary point in space instead of around the ship. I've said it before in this thread and I will say it again, it's NOT a desirable mechanic. One of you guys even asked a while back what it is specifically that is making ppl claim the new camera is nauseating. People, myself included, have pointed out the exact causes yet it get's ignored and your "improvements" are to make things "FASTER." I mean really? Wtf do you even need players to point out what the problem is? Have you even tried using your own camera?

At what point did someone say "HEY, its way too convenient that a player can toggle on a tracking camera button and have the camera automatically point AT the selected object. What we NEED to do is add in some 3 key shortcuts and an extra button that they have to press EVERY SINGLE TIME to get the same effect. And HEY while it at it, why would any one want a STABLE camera that actually points AT their ship? What we NEED is a camera that drifts all over the place, rotates around a random point in space and makes everyone reach for a vomit bag! That would be awesome sauce! We'll even throw in a fish eye lens effect with a massive FOV to make everyone feel EXTRA drunk!"

At first I thought, "Hey, they're just trying to improve on things and introduce some cool new stuff (even if they shouldn't be mucking with something that isn't broken)" Now I'm just thoroughly convinced that this new camera project just needs to be binned all together. I mean WTF I'm sitting here typing on one screen while my ship is sitting in space on another and the camera is just moving around all on its fracking own. Apparently it just decided I would appreciate some cool camera panning action so it was gonna give me some.

If you wanna put the tactical camera on live and give it it's own little button have at it. It's the only thing about these changes that isn't garbage. The rest of this stuff should NEVER be viewed by the public unless its activated under an "advanced" (lol) camera menu aimed at film makers.

Sorry guys, I've been 13 years in Eve and some of this stuff is just becoming beyond laughable. It's just so poorly conceived, it's a waste of resources, all player feed back is ignored because you're gonna do whatever you want (or some brick head is telling you to) and a good tongue lashing rant is in order.

Daemun of Khanid

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#86 - 2016-01-07 18:38:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Could you explain what the purpose of this replacement is?
What is the goal you're trying to achieve and how does the removal of the current camera achieve it? As long as it's opt-in, it's fine but for how long will it remain so?

• First person is neat, but ultimately pointless. It also means you have to implement more control options to allow the exact same level of personalisation that everyone expects from an FPS. I know you guys hate options, but this is non-negotiable.
• Tactical view is an interesting idea and I suppose it came out of the (very) old idea of having more of a 2D presentation of the battlefield. That idea was cute; this implementation is not it due to how you keep losing track of where you are, and yet does not offer any more of an overview of the battlefield than what the current camera + tactical overlay offer.
• The orbital view could conceivably be interesting for movie makers if you stopped trying to make it so dynamic — at the moment, it's not dynamic, just heavily inebriated, uncontrollable, and not showing anything of interest. Again, more options (which you hate) could solve this: allow the user to turn off each and every automatic effect individually to the point where it reverts to the old system.

Right now, you're missing the option having the orbit camera, only without all the cumbersome controls and without the cinematic stuff. A view that just shows your ship and what you're looking at and nothing more fancy than that.

And again, this just leaves the core question unanswered: what are you actually trying to achieve? What are your use cases? How do you plan to handle the case “none of the above” in the long term?
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#87 - 2016-01-07 19:21:32 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Could you explain what the purpose of this replacement is?

tippia please login sisi , check the changes , give feedback in the test server sub, you will be considerably more visible
and
get the feedback in before it gets pushed to tq.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#88 - 2016-01-07 20:42:43 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Could you explain what the purpose of this replacement is?

tippia please login sisi , check the changes , give feedback in the test server sub, you will be considerably more visible
and
get the feedback in before it gets pushed to tq.

Done and done.

Fundamentally, I can't give any feedback other than “you're not fixing anything, just creating problems — revert and remove” without knowing what problems they're trying to fix. Only then will any of these changes have any chance whatsoever to be of value (and even then, there must be a long-term option to not use any of the new modes, because they simply do not work for the basic task of flying your ship).
Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
#89 - 2016-01-08 02:07:13 UTC
After seeing what you've done on the test server, new camera needs to include 'classic camera mode'. I like what we already have. Add to it, but don't remove it. You'll break the game for me.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

MidnightWyvern
The Bosena Accords
Warclone Initiative
#90 - 2016-01-08 03:08:39 UTC
I feel like the only person here who would be completely fine with the new camera with the drifting removed and the ability to set a custom on-screen tracking point added.

I LOVE the FoV shift because it acts more like a zoom function should and really does a better job of conveying the proper scale of our ships.

The tactical camera is cool but I'd love to have it display more detailed info for Fleet Commanders. The ability to micro-manage your Squads in a fleet like you can Squadrons of Fighters with the new Carriers would be pretty slick.

Rattati Senpai noticed us! See you in the next FPS!

Alts: Saray Wyvern, Mobius Wyvern (Dust 514)

Pretty Pony Princess
Princess Club
#91 - 2016-01-08 15:19:58 UTC
I just tried out the marquee-select to lock multiple targets on Sisi and noticed a little problem:
It locks everything. This includes wrecks, asteroids, space junk and other things when I just want to lock a few rats.

Would be nice if the things locked were filtered by the overview settings, locking only things that appear on the overview.
I don't think many players are interested in locking all the Large Collidable Structures instead of the things shooting at them. Big smile
Spaminator
Bad and Dumb
#92 - 2016-01-08 21:21:03 UTC
LOVE the 1st person camera... would be even better to allow rt click (look around) to simulate cockpit view... even if there are limitations on the extent of the 'look around'

:)
Zander Kumamato
The Chaos Void
#93 - 2016-01-08 22:50:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Zander Kumamato
1st person camera is super neat! I love it.


Now we just need better/proper manual ship control.... :D


Would like to also right click (or otherwise) in first person mode to pan the camera view around as in some other games...


When micro jumping, the 1st person reverts back to orbit... I don't think it should do that.

The orbit camera should have the radial menu options that the original camera does, tracking and all that.

I'd like to see 1st person eventually form into a bridge/cockpit type thing where the ship controls change to represent that view.
Rain6637
NulzSec
#94 - 2016-01-09 08:03:53 UTC
Great work on the camera, that's refreshing. We're still flying around without useful tactical HUDs or an interpretation of the Overview, please say there's good news regarding this
Funky Junk9
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#95 - 2016-01-09 10:36:50 UTC
Lurker here posting for the first time.
one thing i noticed with the camera controls is that rotating the camera is too slow
is it possible CCP could work the option to add a "Sensitivity" bar to make camera rotations faster/slower
Sa'ra Krat
Astooboo Enterprises
#96 - 2016-01-09 15:03:43 UTC
Just wanted to say that the new camera controls, regardless of their beta state, have breathed some fresh life into my passion for EVE. They have also made excellent tools for capturing the beauty of EVE on my blog - http://sauerkrautinspace.tumblr.com/
Lizden Kroff
Kroff Industry
#97 - 2016-01-10 03:19:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Lizden Kroff
Hello!

I tried the new orbit camera mode. I did not like it because it made me feel seasick.

In my experiance the old camera is much more precise when you rotate and zoom. The "cinematic" effect as CCP call it made me feel nauseas. The camera speed under:

"System menu (esc) > Display and Graphics > Ship View Camera Settings > Camera speed"

does not make the new camera more precise in my opinion. Because the "cinematic" effect only becomes slower or faster. Unfortantly I felt seasick no matter what I sat the slider to.

I would like that the new "orbit camera mode" on release are implemented as an opt-in option.

Kind regards
Lizden
Timmeeyh Thesecond
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#98 - 2016-01-11 16:23:25 UTC
I think first person camera mode is cool, but not so practical, so i have an idea for consideration.


-In FPC mode, holding down right mouse button could let you look around without steering the ship(like in a fps game).

-It should be possible to select targets for different actions (warp to, target, activate modules etc), with a crosshair (separate from the implemented HUD) by clicking the keyboard hotkey or leftclicking it first and then clicking the hotkey to avoid targetting the wrong target).

-The new targetting rectangle or w/e could also be an option for target picking.

-You could have mouse look mode be an on/off mode, where it would be deactivated/activated by RM

this is great for manual piloting too, given the better sense of where the ship is going in FPC, and because setting new vectors (if thats the right word) with either doubleclick or keybinds would be easy. you could keep setting new vectors, with you trailing hud indicating how you ship is responding



Thor Kerrigan
The High and Mighty
Carebear Abortion Clinic
#99 - 2016-01-11 20:27:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Thor Kerrigan
I am curious to try these out.

Before I do though, here is my main concern about representing the epic scale and I am curious if the adjustements somehow diminish this effect:

I have always found the ships we fly "feel" smaller than what they should due to their relative speeds and agility. In other words, A ship the size of a sky-scraper moves like we would expect a jet and without reference points, we don't actually realize their size at first glance. If you look at a Myrmidon, for example, and then watch it perform a 180 degrees turn while considering it stands higher than the highest building on earth... Goodbye any crew located at extremities and say hi to spaghetti sauce.

I tried doing fly-bys at around 10% speed close to stations or placing pods next to ships, which seemed to confirm my suspicions about this.

Here is a video (source: "The Onion" satirical news) which shows Nyx-class hulls fly around like drones... Maybe it's me but they also feel like being the size of a drone.
XeX Znndstrup
#100 - 2016-01-12 12:36:24 UTC
CCP Optimal wrote:
Good day.

As some of you may already know, we have been hard at work updating the in-flight camera of EVE. As this is one of the fundamental systems of any game, we want to take good care of treading lightly and get as much player feedback as possible to make sure we get as smooth a deployment as possible when we finally get around to replacing the current camera. Today, we’re taking a step in that direction by allowing you to try out a BETA version on TQ for the next few days. To enable the new camera, simply open up the System Menu (Esc) > General Settings > Experimental Features and tick the Try the New Camera checkbox.

Instead of the lone space camera that you are all familiar with, the updated version comes in three flavors; Orbit, Tactical and First person.

The Orbit camera (alt+2) is the default one, and is always attached to a ship or structure in space. This camera is designed to give the player a more cinematic feeling and try to emphasize things like scale and speed while behaving pretty similar to the old camera in other regards.

  • Field of view decreased as you zoom in, giving a much more epic sense of scale.
  • Ship position on screen is offset based on the speed vector of your ship, giving a much improved sense of speed and movement.
  • When looking at other ships, camera is allowed to drift, making it very easy to set up super cool fly-by shots. Drifting can be temporarily disabled by holding down the left mouse button for a steady view. When looking at your own ship, we allow an almost unnoticeable amount of drift to achieve a subtle parallax effect as the nebula moves by ever so slowly.
  • Tracking camera is now activated via Alt+Shift+click and deactivated by left-dragging. The object tracked is now always offset a bit based on the direction of flight of your own ship so it doesn’t disappear behind your own ship all the time.
  • New chase mode is activated by tracking the ship you’re already looking at, locking the camera straight behind your ship. This mode works amazingly well with manual flight!
  • Look at is now allowed for items far away, but instead of the camera travelling, we just turn it in place so the object is centered at the screen, which is very handy for, say, directional scanning.
  • Smoother zooming/orbiting, accompanied with a new camera speed setting in the system menu (this applies to all camera modes).


The Tactical camera (alt+1) is designed with more practicalities in mind and is more similar to an RTS camera. It allows for panning around the battlefield as well as rotating. In this mode, we don’t have any of the cinematic effects of the orbit camera.

  • Field of view is fixed at a wide angle and none of the cinematic shenanigans of the orbit camera is present.
  • Panning is achieved by right dragging.
  • Camera is attached to an object by doing look at and detached by panning (NOTE: this feature sadly didn’t quite make it to the BETA but is close to completion, so you’ll just have to use your imagination for now ) .
  • While detached, the camera zooms toward the cursor instead of the center of the screen.
  • The Look at command preserves zoom distance, so we essentially just pan the camera. This way battlefield overview and awareness is preserved as well.
  • Tactical overlay is on by default.


The First Person camera (alt+3) is probably the least practical, yet most awesome (IMHO) of the triplets. It is highly recommended that you try it out with the not-so-long-ago-introduced manual flight feature that is mapped to the keyboard arrow keys.

  • Fixed first person view with wide field of view
  • Military jet style roll and pitch indicators overlay for orientation
  • 3 level stepped zoom
  • Precision titan bumping
  • Makes you crave for joystick support


In addition to this, we have implemented marquee-select (mouse drawn rectangle selection) in space, which can be incredibly handy for those of us who enjoy interacting with the 3d scene instead of the overview whenever practical and possible. To activate marquee selection, simply hold down one of the combat shortcut keys, such as ctrl+left drag to target, ALT+left drag to do Look At and a new SHIFT+left drag to just select, making it possible to select even the fastest of drones. Note that this feature is still not quite finished, so it currently only selects one of the brackets under the marquee at random. Once it’s finished, you’ll be able to do things like target multiple items at once.

The reason we release a BETA feature is so that we can collect precious feedback and iterate before we turn it into the actual thing. We’re really excited to hear which of those features/changes you love or hate and don’t be shy to suggest improvements.

Bonus Challenge: Whoever creates the slickest YouTube video using the new camera gets a … free high-five, delivered by me at next Fanfest. GO!

Known issues:

  • Camera does not attach to target in tactical mode
  • Jump effect is borked
  • Camera mode preference is not persisted on jumping
  • Marquee select only selects a single item

FPS view is clearly awesome.

Everyone understood that you only need now to draw a cockpit in the view and a lot of us will find there what they have been dreaming for a long time and since their first time in the game : ability to pilot also a ship inside.
With this feature, you actually break Star Citizen interest for a part. That's also what some players of Eve desired. Extending the excellent Eve Online with what other games seem to bring.

Questions :
1- Do you intend to create these cockpits later ?
2- Can we really use a joystick in this view ?

Thanks for your answers, CCP Optimal (if you find time...)

Regards.

Judge of The Law Organization and President of Stellar Order.

"Long is the way, and hard, that out of hell leads up to light". John Milton, Lost Paradise.

@ /// f