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Damage profiles by ship group and weapon type in 2015

First post
Author
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#41 - 2015-12-29 22:54:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Manessa Poulette wrote:
Katrina Bekers wrote:
But then... Why every ship type (but logifrigs and cmd dessies) show they dealt fighter damage?

'Cause I bet the chart shows damage received by ships, not damage dealt.

So please people stop complaing about Ishtars and Gilas. The chart doesn't show that drone cruisers are the most effective ships (and no I'm not saying they aren't, I'm just pointing out that's not what the chart shows).


The chart just shows that:

1) people love flying cruisers;
2) one of the most effective weapon to hurt a cruiser are drones.

We all know that.

And BTW anyway it's obvious that drones as a weapon system have the most combined damaged... that's because almost every ship has drones, and even not counting drone boats, drones account for 10%-20% of the DPS of most ships.

So if you take ideally 1 Amarr laser ship, 1 Gallente hybrid ship, 1 Caldari missile ship and 1 Minmatar projectile ship, let's say for sake of simple math they all are perfectly balanced and do 400 DPS from the main system and 100 from drones, you end up with:
400 DPS by lasers
400 DPS by missiles
400 DPS by hybrid
400 DPS by projectile
and guess what, 400 DPS from drones. And there's no drone boat in there.

Add to the mix 1 drone boat (400 DPS from drones + 100 DPS from turrets, ideally) and you get 900 DPS from drone, and "only" 400 from the other systems (with just one that gets 500).

Nothing surprising here.




^^^ LOLWUT

Hogwash.


@Katrina Bekers : That would be fighter assist.
Kasia en Tilavine
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#42 - 2015-12-29 23:09:49 UTC
Manessa Poulette wrote:

'Cause I bet the chart shows damage received by ships, not damage dealt.



Are you saying that in a whole year, no carrier was ever shot by anything but drones?
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#43 - 2015-12-29 23:16:07 UTC
Manessa Poulette wrote:
Katrina Bekers wrote:
But then... Why every ship type (but logifrigs and cmd dessies) show they dealt fighter damage?

'Cause I bet the chart shows damage received by ships, not damage dealt.

So please people stop complaing about Ishtars and Gilas. The chart doesn't show that drone cruisers are the most effective ships (and no I'm not saying they aren't, I'm just pointing out that's not what the chart shows).


The chart just shows that:

1) people love flying cruisers;
2) one of the most effective weapon to hurt a cruiser are drones.

We all know that.

And BTW anyway it's obvious that drones as a weapon system have the most combined damaged... that's because almost every ship has drones, and even not counting drone boats, drones account for 10%-20% of the DPS of most ships.

So if you take ideally 1 Amarr laser ship, 1 Gallente hybrid ship, 1 Caldari missile ship and 1 Minmatar projectile ship, let's say for sake of simple math they all are perfectly balanced and do 400 DPS from the main system and 100 from drones, you end up with:
400 DPS by lasers
400 DPS by missiles
400 DPS by hybrid
400 DPS by projectile
and guess what, 400 DPS from drones. And there's no drone boat in there.

Add to the mix 1 drone boat (400 DPS from drones + 100 DPS from turrets, ideally) and you get 900 DPS from drone, and "only" 400 from the other systems (with just one that gets 500).

Nothing surprising here.




This message show that you don't know the game. Fighter damage for all class except the ones who were introduced after they removed fighter assist mean that all the fighter damage on class beside carrier is assisted fighters. Unless no damage was done by DD on anything but titans and bombers only ever managed to bomb bombers...
Niraia
Starcakes
#44 - 2015-12-29 23:16:59 UTC
Why are Battleships at the top?

Kasia en Tilavine
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#45 - 2015-12-29 23:20:31 UTC
CCP Phantom wrote:
CCP Quant has conjured up some data magic added some grains of crunched numbers and voilá! ready is the damage profile chart 2015.


Let the analysis begin!


We need the drone damage stripped down to only ships that have damage bonus to drones please? we would like to know if the vexor family is as ridiculous as they feel when they slam into your ship with 500 dps at 420 blaze it kite ranges.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2015-12-29 23:23:54 UTC
CCP Phantom wrote:
CCP Quant has conjured up some data magic added some grains of crunched numbers and voilá! ready is the damage profile chart 2015.


This chart shows the accumulated damage in 2015 grouped by ship group and refined by weapon group.

A high resolution (vector) version of this 2015 chart is available here.
As comparison check out the damage profiles 2014.

Let the analysis begin!



Does that damage count only shooting at ships or shootign structures as well? Because including structure shootignmay be highly misleading.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2015-12-29 23:25:18 UTC
Niraia wrote:
Why are Battleships at the top?



because someone had to be at the top. THe top does nto mean more damage. the BRIGHT colors do.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#48 - 2015-12-29 23:31:22 UTC
Niraia wrote:
Why are Battleships at the top?



CCP Quant has a well developed sense of irony?
Kasia en Tilavine
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#49 - 2015-12-29 23:51:26 UTC
Those feels when doomsdays did more damage than all 8 assault frigs combined.

Ugh

CCP assault frig love pls. There is no reason to undock in Glorious Vengeance Kun anymore...
Manessa Poulette
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2015-12-29 23:55:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Manessa Poulette
Kasia en Tilavine wrote:
Manessa Poulette wrote:

'Cause I bet the chart shows damage received by ships, not damage dealt.



Are you saying that in a whole year, no carrier was ever shot by anything but drones?


You might be right.

But are you saying that every ship in the game has dealt damage with fighters? Even including drone assist, that's just as strange. Why would you use, say, deep transports for that?

And stealth bombers doing damage with other systems than missiles? I'm assuming dark gray areas with "0B HP" mean "some damage, even if negligible", as opposed to empty cells which mean 0 damage at all.



Second point still holds. It's not possible to compare weapon systems w/o considering the number of ships that use each system.
Kasia en Tilavine
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#51 - 2015-12-30 00:07:29 UTC
Manessa Poulette wrote:

And stealth bombers doing damage with other systems than missiles? I'm assuming dark gray areas with "0B HP" mean "some damage, even if negligible",

Second point still holds. It's not possible to compare weapon systems w/o considering the number of ships that use each system.


Stealth bombers have hard points for turrets. The hound has 2.

There are "about" 30 ships in the game for each weapon system, lasers, projectiles, hybrids, and ships with actual drone bonus's. Missiles are sluts, and there's about 50 with bonus's to them or full racks with no other bonus's to highslot weapons. Its hard to give an accurate estimate on ships to weapon types because there are some ships without bonus's, some with split bonus's, and some that just scream for x weapon type.

If you want to look at the numbers in context though, that's a good ballpark to go on. 30 for each, with 50 for missiles. That gives us "about" .25 billion damage per ship for lasers and missiles, while hybrids and projectiles do about .5 billion damage "per ship".

As you say, drones are hard to calculate. with a rough estimate along the T1 line of all the races averaged, 10% of damage is un-bonus'd drones. when you factor that in, you can shake out a .6 billion average damage per "drone ship".

Obviously this is the most blind math you could ever do on the subject. (we need the raw spread-a-base CCP).

Drones have an edge. Missiles and lasers need some love. Pretty much what people feel when they play the game. Funny how that works.
Manessa Poulette
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2015-12-30 00:08:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Manessa Poulette
Frostys Virpio wrote:
This message show that you don't know the game.
Interesting.
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Fighter damage for all class except the ones who were introduced after they removed fighter assist mean that all the fighter damage on class beside carrier is assisted fighters. Unless no damage was done by DD on anything but titans and bombers only ever managed to bomb bombers...


You know what? mining barges are much a better example than carriers. Most of the damage received has to be hybrid there. I'm convinced now that the graph it's damage dealt, no received, for sure.

What puzzles me is that cells like mining barge / lasers are empty as expected, but bombers / lasers aren't.

Edited:
Kasia en Tilavine wrote:


Stealth bombers have hard points for turrets. The hound has 2.

I see, so it is possible that someone shot lasers in a stealth bomber (even if I have no idea why someone would do so).
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#53 - 2015-12-30 01:20:44 UTC
The chart is a hoax !

My Golem did at least 2b damage last.......um.....week !

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.

Pestilen Ratte
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2015-12-30 01:25:01 UTC
Our experience in faction warfare combat may shed light on the reason drones are the most effective and preferred weapons system.

The primary reason, we believe, is that drones allow a pilot to concentrate their attention on defensive flying, whereas gun turrets require the pilot to fly offensively.

Put another way, in order to apply effective DPS from gun turrets, you need to position yourself so that you are in effective gun turret range from your enemy. It is the nature of gun fights. If you have a clear shot on your enemy, all guns being equal he has a clear shot on you.

So gun turret platforms are going to need tank, to stay in the fight long enough to prevail. Sadly, they also need to be nimble, and they don't have a lot of powergrid left after fitting gun turrets that provide a wide DPS application envelope (big ones).

The drone pilot can concentrate on speed and range dictation, and can apply damage from 50km with no special skills. Even better, drones require no powergrid, CPU or ammo, so the happy drone pilot can spend all that on tanking. Passive tanking, active tanking, EWAR, cap war, you name it, the drone pilot can have it.

The drone pilot also has the capacity to change damage type, and to carry all three weapon sizes at once. The humble vexor can fit small, medium and large calibre weapons, all at once.

Good luck fitting the full compliment of light, medium and heavy gun turrets on any boat. You would need 18 high slots and 5 times the powergrid, and even then you'd have enough hold space for about 20 rounds from the heavy guns.

Lastly, applied DPS is largely a function of effective tackle. Two webs and a pointer and most ships begin to suffer very badly. In order to take advantage of heavily tackled targets, gun boats need to put themselves in the firing line. The drone boat can apply huge damage from 50kms, allowing them to stand off in safety.

This is not to say that guns are "bad". Rather, you have to be a pretty handy pilot to make guns work. Even then, a pretty handy pilot in a drone boat will smoke a handy pilot in a gun boat in most fights of equal classes.

This post is not meant to be a criticism, it is just our opinion of how things are in the game.

Gallente drone pilots are elite.
Jasper Sinclair
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
#55 - 2015-12-30 02:01:36 UTC
Mhari Dson wrote:
I have always wondered why the reliance on drones for just about every ship to take out small stuff when a second fitting line (for small weapons only) would accomplish the job without the extra server side load drones produce.


Excellent point. This is something that real world navies have understood for several hundred years. Anyway, nothing astonishing in these numbers. Cruisers are the best cost/benefit ships for the vast majority of players. I was a bit surprised to see the Proteus as the #1 strategic cruiser. I smiled to see the Catalyst is the #1 destroyer, undoubtedly because of its ganking abilities. Also, RIP assault frigates.

Former Blue CEO, admirer of Caracals (and Tristans)

Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#56 - 2015-12-30 02:46:15 UTC
Kasia en Tilavine wrote:
I would like to once again push for all drones to be stripped off ALL ships that are not made for them until you get to CBC and BS size ships. Frigs die so easily, and so often to the token light drone dps from a cruiser or two, they are ....mostly,,,, not worth the actual time clock investment to undock. Faction/pirate and T2 frigs aside of course.

As well, the drone DPS on that graph is way over represented because every ship has a few token drones, or a flight of mediums that often do more damage to the target than the actual bonus'd weapons system on the hull.

Tristan
Maulus
Maulus navy
Keres
Worm

Algos
Magus
Dragoon
pontifex

Vexor
Vexor Navy
Arbitrator
Gila
Curse
Pilgrim
Ishtar

Proteus (drone configuration)
Legion (drone configuration LOL)

These are the only sub CBC ships that should have drones. AT ALL.


You'd have to buff both range and weapon damage of the ships that loss the drones.
Redd Dredd
State War Academy
Caldari State
#57 - 2015-12-30 04:02:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Redd Dredd
Remember when the Zealot was fun to fly, and Amarr was worthwhile? Cry
Captain Awkward
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#58 - 2015-12-30 09:24:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Awkward
Redd Dredd wrote:
Remember when the Zealot was fun to fly, and Amarr was worthwhile? Cry


Yea Amarr ships are in a real bad spot these days, espacially for solo.

If you go buffer, you get into PG problems as armor buffer and energy weapons eat a lot of PG. Even passive tanked laser boats cap run out of cap and are vulnurable for neuts. Adding a NOS eats even more PG.

If you go active tank you get into heavy cap problems as active armor tank and energy weapons eat your cap like crazy and you usually do not have the midslots available for a cap booster.

And then you look at the vexor or a dual/tripple tanked mymidon and just dont know what to say.
Niraia
Starcakes
#59 - 2015-12-30 10:00:07 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Niraia wrote:
Why are Battleships at the top?



because someone had to be at the top. THe top does nto mean more damage. the BRIGHT colors do.


It's just that the ships that do the most damage are all near the top of the chart, so putting Battleships at the top could be misleading :o

Naxirian
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#60 - 2015-12-30 10:23:13 UTC
RIP Assault ships and Interceptors. All hail their complete and utter replacement, the T3D! Cry

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