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Damage profiles by ship group and weapon type in 2015

First post
Author
Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#21 - 2015-12-29 17:36:36 UTC
ergherhdfgh wrote:
Soldarius wrote:
Drone cruisers still top of the heap. But since the adjustments were fairly recent, I'm not surprised. The damage profiles do seem a bit more spread out from the last time someone posted/showed an image like this.

It's drone damage on cruiser hulls and since nearly all cruisers can use drones to some degree or another things would be way out of balance if drones were not at the top of the list.

Also, Ishtars got their final tweaks during 2015 and as such drone damage was likely higher at the beginning of the year. Gilas only lost a low slot recently and that will also bring the numbers down a little bit. So these numbers are not fully reflective of the current game balance.

On a side not BC tweaks this year should also start to have their numbers creep up, and of the changes made the drone ships had the smallest changes so they should not see a significant change next year.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#22 - 2015-12-29 17:36:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Any way to split out missiles to size fired? Rapid XXX are probably over-representing, but we can't tell from here.

Ed: I suppose we can infer it from the striking LACK of missile damage on the battlecruisers as they are not rapid bonused.
Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
#23 - 2015-12-29 17:46:20 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Any way to split out missiles to size fired? Rapid XXX are probably over-representing, but we can't tell from here.


and lights are very good at applied damage whereas heavies are terrible, I'd like to see this too
Capqu
Half Empty
#24 - 2015-12-29 18:06:49 UTC
could you do the same but for just current & previous patch?

this graph still has crazy ishtar damage from earlier in the year, and svipul damage spread over the 6 months or whatever when it wasnt even in the game
Ghaustyl Kathix
Rising Thunder
#25 - 2015-12-29 18:12:35 UTC
Hendrink Collie wrote:
I guess the obvious question is CCP happy that 4 out of the 5 most popular hull + weapon combinations are cruiser hulls?
All things considered, I think cruisers should be the most popular overall. They're in general a very good balance between speed, power and cost. Even the T3s.

Regarding drones, the related rebalances happened later in the year, so the numbers are still a bit stilted from that. Not only that, but this shows the most popular, not the most powerful. Part of the reason drones are really popular is because it's an easy fleet concept. Get in a Vexor, VNI, Ishtar or Gila, drop drones, assist to FC, focus on flying your ship rather than applying damage.
The Receptionist
Novartis Corporation.
#26 - 2015-12-29 18:51:47 UTC
OH NO, EVERY SHIP IS NOT EQUAL! WE MUST NERF SOMETHING. Shocked
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#27 - 2015-12-29 19:57:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
The Receptionist wrote:
OH NO, EVERY SHIP IS NOT EQUAL! WE MUST NERF SOMETHING. Shocked



Or we can ask things like why are the drake, drake navy and cyclone combined outdamaged by a simple hurricane & hurricane fleet?

I mean, god knows medium projectiles are dire....so what does that tell you about HML/HAM...?
The Receptionist
Novartis Corporation.
#28 - 2015-12-29 20:00:29 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
The Receptionist wrote:
OH NO, EVERY SHIP IS NOT EQUAL! WE MUST NERF SOMETHING. Shocked



Or we can ask things like why are the drake, drake navy and cyclone combined outdamaged by a simple hurricane & hurricane fleet?

I mean, god knows medium projectiles are dire....so what does that tell you about HML/HAM...?


you're right, nerf the cane. NERF ALL THE THINGS.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#29 - 2015-12-29 20:06:12 UTC
Nobody said nerf the cane, you ridiculous panic merchant.
Pericles Sotken
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#30 - 2015-12-29 20:06:18 UTC
Still waiting for any tables of raw data from Quant.
His graphs are all nice and pretty, but give me hard numbers to compare to.

And why is only PVP referenced? PVE seperately as well please.
What is the purpose of the graphs? To cause further consolidation of fits or to show the disparity of the spread, giving evidence for further balancing requirements?

I would love to get my hands on all that raw data. Put it into summary tables, anonymise it and let me at it, please.
And most tables are only useful if they come with a dictionary, define PVP damage.
Its very easy to assume, that's why I ask for the specific calculations that compose that figure.
Embla Svanhildur
Literally The Worst Community
#31 - 2015-12-29 20:46:41 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Nobody said nerf the cane, you ridiculous panic merchant.


Would you like to buy some panic?
Kasia en Tilavine
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#32 - 2015-12-29 20:55:11 UTC
I would like to once again push for all drones to be stripped off ALL ships that are not made for them until you get to CBC and BS size ships. Frigs die so easily, and so often to the token light drone dps from a cruiser or two, they are ....mostly,,,, not worth the actual time clock investment to undock. Faction/pirate and T2 frigs aside of course.

As well, the drone DPS on that graph is way over represented because every ship has a few token drones, or a flight of mediums that often do more damage to the target than the actual bonus'd weapons system on the hull.

Tristan
Maulus
Maulus navy
Keres
Worm

Algos
Magus
Dragoon
pontifex

Vexor
Vexor Navy
Arbitrator
Gila
Curse
Pilgrim
Ishtar

Proteus (drone configuration)
Legion (drone configuration LOL)

These are the only sub CBC ships that should have drones. AT ALL.
Ghaustyl Kathix
Rising Thunder
#33 - 2015-12-29 21:16:19 UTC
Kasia en Tilavine wrote:
I would like to once again push for all drones to be stripped off ALL ships that are not made for them until you get to CBC and BS size ships.
I hope you'd suggest buffing the ships that are then losing drone bays. Deimos, Thorax and Fed Navy Comet get horribly sub-par DPS without their flights, for example.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#34 - 2015-12-29 21:19:54 UTC
Ghaustyl Kathix wrote:
Kasia en Tilavine wrote:
I would like to once again push for all drones to be stripped off ALL ships that are not made for them until you get to CBC and BS size ships.
I hope you'd suggest buffing the ships that are then losing drone bays. Deimos, Thorax and Fed Navy Comet get horribly sub-par DPS without their flights, for example.


More likely just wants to solo all the gun cruisers in a frigate/T3D
Darkstar01
Doomheim
#35 - 2015-12-29 21:24:00 UTC
The number lovers must be having an orgasm right now
Kibitt Kallinikov
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#36 - 2015-12-29 21:57:04 UTC
Ghaustyl Kathix wrote:
Kasia en Tilavine wrote:
I would like to once again push for all drones to be stripped off ALL ships that are not made for them until you get to CBC and BS size ships.
I hope you'd suggest buffing the ships that are then losing drone bays. Deimos, Thorax and Fed Navy Comet get horribly sub-par DPS without their flights, for example.


I don't know what Comet you're talking about, because the one I know gets plenty of DPS without drones. Partly because it has so much CPU and can fit lots of damage mods without making any compromises thanks to its natural hull buffer, which conveniently lets it keep its natural speed and agility.

Common FW fits have two mag stabs, t2 DC, small Anci armor rep, AB/web/scram, then either Railguns or Blaster + Nos/Neut. You get 6.7k EHP with t2 DC and 3x Bulkheads (t2 gives 7.2k EHP) and your DPS is 225 with Antimatter loaded blasters, or 179 with Null.

In comparison, an AC Firetail would have to give up either DPS or compromise its low-ish sig to get that much buffer and you won't have room for something like Comet's repper, and you only get ~180 DPS even with two gyros. You're just not going to win a raw stat competition against a Comet with another navy frig because Comet has the best raw stats. It's not invincible or anything close to it but I'd argue that fitting wise it's certainly much stronger than its competitors as it gets buffer tank basically for free while also having considerable fitting space for whatever else it desires.

Arty vs. Railgun comparison shouldn't be about DPS as Arty is always about alpha damage.

Then you throw in the drones, the fact that Comet aligns to warp in under 3s like an attack frigate (meaning anything short of instalock won't force you to fight) and you've got a very safe ship that can disengage while having multiple effective fittings and it's a pretty scary frigate.
Katrina Bekers
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#37 - 2015-12-29 22:01:13 UTC
So, the chart says damage inflicted during the year, per ship type, per weapon.

It must be so, since bombs are stealth bombers-only, doomdays are titans-only and fighter bombers are supercarriers-only.

But then... Why every ship type (but logifrigs and cmd dessies) show they dealt fighter damage?

ALL of them, including Zephyrs and Echelons (rofl) have been used as fighters' "assigns-to"?

I'm a bit puzzled.

<< THE RABBLE BRIGADE >>

Kasia en Tilavine
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#38 - 2015-12-29 22:11:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Kasia en Tilavine
Ghaustyl Kathix wrote:
Thorax ... get horribly sub-par DPS without their flights ... for example....

.... for example...

Please tell me how balanced it is that the Moa gets 5 guns with a 5% to damage and 3 light drones While the Thorax gets 5 guns with a 5% to damage and 5 medium drones.
helana Tsero
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#39 - 2015-12-29 22:42:52 UTC
any chance to get an excel version of this chart ?

Would be awesome to be able to sort and rank by ship type/ damage etc.

The blue on grey is very hard to read especially for ship classes that do little damage

"...ppl need to get out of caves and they will see something new.... thats where eve is placed... not in cave."  | zoonr-Korsairs |

Meanwhile Citadel release issues: "tried to bug report this and the bug report is bugged as well" | Rafeau |

Manessa Poulette
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2015-12-29 22:49:07 UTC
Katrina Bekers wrote:
But then... Why every ship type (but logifrigs and cmd dessies) show they dealt fighter damage?

'Cause I bet the chart shows damage received by ships, not damage dealt.

So please people stop complaing about Ishtars and Gilas. The chart doesn't show that drone cruisers are the most effective ships (and no I'm not saying they aren't, I'm just pointing out that's not what the chart shows).


The chart just shows that:

1) people love flying cruisers;
2) one of the most effective weapon to hurt a cruiser are drones.

We all know that.

And BTW anyway it's obvious that drones as a weapon system have the most combined damaged... that's because almost every ship has drones, and even not counting drone boats, drones account for 10%-20% of the DPS of most ships.

So if you take ideally 1 Amarr laser ship, 1 Gallente hybrid ship, 1 Caldari missile ship and 1 Minmatar projectile ship, let's say for sake of simple math they all are perfectly balanced and do 400 DPS from the main system and 100 from drones, you end up with:
400 DPS by lasers
400 DPS by missiles
400 DPS by hybrid
400 DPS by projectile
and guess what, 400 DPS from drones. And there's no drone boat in there.

Add to the mix 1 drone boat (400 DPS from drones + 100 DPS from turrets, ideally) and you get 900 DPS from drone, and "only" 400 from the other systems (with just one that gets 500).

Nothing surprising here.