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[December] Balance Smorgasbord

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Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
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#541 - 2015-11-14 21:00:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Templar Dane
TrouserDeagle wrote:



2 mids is fine, not every ship needs to be a competitive 1v1 brawler.


Then what is it supposed to be?

It can't kite for ****.
No application bonus.
Losing utility high.
Can't active tank.
Can't shield tank.
No ewar.
Even with capacitor bonus, it still uses nearly twice as much cap per gun as a blaster (and another gun to feed) so it has a major weakness to neuts.

It's a Jack of No Trades, Master of None.

The other tanky frigates, breacher/incursus/merlin are far more flexible because of their extra mids.

The incursus can do godly frigate active tank with an injector.

The breacher can do capacitor independant tanking and is no slouch dps wise.

The merlin is average as **** but still way ahead of the punisher.
Shalashaska Adam
Snakes and Lasers
#542 - 2015-11-15 00:42:18 UTC
Punisher has it's niche, might be a small niche, but it is the master of it.

That niche is simply its incredible buffer durability.

Throw all the buffer in the world on a Merlin, to the point that its nothing but tank, ab and scram, and your looking at like 11000, with a signature the size of a destroyer. The incursus fairs better, that can get up to around 12000, with a sig of 42 and a web.

Punisher can do 19000, plus 290 per cycle coming from a rep in the new 5th lowslot, with a sig of 37, and still enough fitting left for a reasonable 120 close orbit dps to assist the small gang its tackling for, bring the target down a few seconds earlier.

If you need a 5mil frig to just hold a mother****er down while being pounded on by 200-300-400-500 dps, and live a consistent period of time every time, with a buffer immune to neuts, pilot error, or being alpha'd, you can't get anything else to do it as well.

The game has countless dozen solo frigs that are fast, can kite, can project good damage at good distance, etc etc etc.

It doesn't need yet another identical one with a different skin. These changes will see a lot of interesting fittings spring up for it that aren't just the boring addition of a web everyone had in mind before.
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
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#543 - 2015-11-15 03:58:28 UTC
Shalashaska Adam wrote:
Punisher has it's niche, might be a small niche, but it is the master of it.

That niche is simply its incredible buffer durability.

Throw all the buffer in the world on a Merlin, to the point that its nothing but tank, ab and scram, and your looking at like 11000, with a signature the size of a destroyer. The incursus fairs better, that can get up to around 12000, with a sig of 42 and a web.

Punisher can do 19000, plus 290 per cycle coming from a rep in the new 5th lowslot, with a sig of 37, and still enough fitting left for a reasonable 120 close orbit dps to assist the small gang its tackling for, bring the target down a few seconds earlier.

If you need a 5mil frig to just hold a mother****er down while being pounded on by 200-300-400-500 dps, and live a consistent period of time every time, with a buffer immune to neuts, pilot error, or being alpha'd, you can't get anything else to do it as well.

The game has countless dozen solo frigs that are fast, can kite, can project good damage at good distance, etc etc etc.

It doesn't need yet another identical one with a different skin. These changes will see a lot of interesting fittings spring up for it that aren't just the boring addition of a web everyone had in mind before.

what part of loosing a utility high opens up alot of intresting fits to you? Tanking is not a role.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Shalashaska Adam
Snakes and Lasers
#544 - 2015-11-15 04:49:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Shalashaska Adam
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
what part of loosing a utility high opens up alot of intresting fits to you? Tanking is not a role.


Tanking is the defining attribute of a heavy tackle role.

What does losing the utility high do, if its being used in a role to heavy tackle cruisers and up.

Its capacitor is strong enough to resist a small neut, and a small nos does not prevent a medium neut from capping you out just the same. Whether the scram goes off still comes down to a dice roll on how closely the medium neuts cycle hits you in comparison to the start of the next scram cycle. As its capacitor regeneration is very good by itself, it can keep the scram up quite tenaciously in the face of a medium neut. The addition of a nos doesn't really increase that chance in practice. A small neut is also obviously pointless in that role. The fit we currently roll for it has no use for the utility high, so the 4th gun being added is purely a bonus.

I imagine you are still requiring it to be a solo frigate, and wont imagine what use it's buffs could be to any role outside of that. Does the concept of a T1 frigate meant for small gangs really seem that abhorrent that it would just be better removed entirely if it's not going to be made into another cookie cutter clone solo frig, which the tormentor already fills just fine for T1 amarr.

It has more slots and fitting at its disposal now than any other T1 frigate in the game. A slicer might also have 5 lows but a slicer is basically the polar opposite kind of frigate to the punisher, which also has far more cpu and powergrid in addition to its even resists and resist bonus on top of that.

It has a role, and it is capable of performing it excellently. Might not be the role which you would like to fly it in, but it's not a do-it-all frigate. Luckily I imagine there's several dozen frigates that are precisely what you are looking for.
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
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#545 - 2015-11-15 05:00:39 UTC
Shalashaska Adam wrote:
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
what part of loosing a utility high opens up alot of intresting fits to you? Tanking is not a role.


Tanking is the defining attribute of a heavy tackle role.

What does losing the utility high do, if its being used in a role to heavy tackle cruisers and up.

Its capacitor is strong enough to resist a small neut, and a small nos does not prevent a medium neut from capping you out just the same. Whether the scram goes off still comes down to a dice roll on how closely the medium neuts cycle hits you in comparison to the start of the next scram cycle. As its capacitor regeneration is very good by itself, it can keep the scram up quite tenaciously in the face of a medium neut. The addition of a nos doesn't really increase that chance in practice. A small neut is also obviously pointless in that role. The fit we currently roll for it has no use for the utility high, so the 4th gun being added is purely a bonus.

I imagine you are still requiring it to be a solo frigate, and wont imagine what use it's buffs could be to any role outside of that. Does the concept of a T1 frigate meant for small gangs really seem that abhorrent that it would just be better removed entirely if it's not going to be made into another cookie cutter clone solo frig, which the tormentor already fills just fine for T1 amarr.

actually i only use the punisher in fleets. and only use it when my fleet mates cant fly a tristan. because of the utility neut. without its utility neut it has NO fleet role anymore. everyone will just fit a tormentor, or use a race of ships that dont suck at t1 frigating. or use a punisher with 3 neuts because it will be useless.

infact, if this change goes through on the punisher, literally everybody will be saying just ignore all t1 amarr frigates. they are trash in fleet settings. except the inquisitor.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Shalashaska Adam
Snakes and Lasers
#546 - 2015-11-15 05:17:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Shalashaska Adam
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
actually i only use the punisher in fleets. and only use it when my fleet mates cant fly a tristan. because of the utility neut. without its utility neut it has NO fleet role anymore. everyone will just fit a tormentor, or use a race of ships that dont suck at t1 frigating. or use a punisher with 3 neuts because it will be useless.

infact, if this change goes through on the punisher, literally everybody will be saying just ignore all t1 amarr frigates. they are trash in fleet settings. except the inquisitor.


Well, as far as our use is concerned, a Tristan nor a Tormentor provide what we need, and a small neut is of no benefit to neutralizing the incoming damage of a cruiser, the slot currently goes empty, and even with the new fitting space enabling a neut in addition to the tank we fit it with now, we will be using the new fitting space for other things.

There will be many other interesting fits popping up that its new slots and fitting space enable, besides the one we use.

What interesting fits would it get if it was made to be like everything else? Nothing that hasn't been standard for years, and if its not made to be better than others in that standard role, then it still won't be used. At least it is the best at something, rather than just mediocre at everything.

The punisher change doesn't make or break the ship for us, we've happily used it for a quite a while and would continue to do so buff or not. But for what we use it for the buffs are very beneficial. Our heavy tackler is quite pleased.

So I don't think everybody will be ignoring it.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#547 - 2015-11-15 06:31:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
So are the Worm and Gila losing their drone HP bonuses in the balance pass? I really think you're going to far on these when all that is really needed is to tame the drone bonus down a tad, ie:

Worm ·· current
300% bonus to Light Combat Drone damage and hitpoints
3 low slots

Worm ·· proposed
300% bonus to Light Combat Drone damage
2 low slots, -20 CPU

Worm ·· compromise
250% bonus to Light Combat Drone damage and hitpoints
3 low slots, -20 CPU
...

Gila ·· current
500% bonus to Medium Combat Drone damage and hitpoints
4 low slots

Gila ·· proposed
500% bonus to Medium Combat Drone damage
3 low slots, -20 CPU

Gila ·· compromise
400% bonus to Medium Combat Drone damage and hitpoints
4 low slots, -20 CPU

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#548 - 2015-11-15 07:54:11 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
So are the Worm and Gila losing their drone HP bonuses in the balance pass? I really think you're going to far on these when all that is really needed is to tame the drone bonus down a tad, ie:

Worm ·· current
300% bonus to Light Combat Drone damage and hitpoints
3 low slots

Worm ·· proposed
300% bonus to Light Combat Drone damage
2 low slots, -20 CPU

Worm ·· compromise
250% bonus to Light Combat Drone damage and hitpoints
3 low slots, -20 CPU
...

Gila ·· current
500% bonus to Medium Combat Drone damage and hitpoints
4 low slots

Gila ·· proposed
500% bonus to Medium Combat Drone damage
3 low slots, -20 CPU

Gila ·· compromise
400% bonus to Medium Combat Drone damage and hitpoints
4 low slots, -20 CPU



read the op this change is just -20 cpu and a low slot. nothing about the drones yet.
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
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#549 - 2015-11-15 08:09:50 UTC
Shalashaska Adam wrote:
Punisher has it's niche, might be a small niche, but it is the master of it.

That niche is simply its incredible buffer durability.

Throw all the buffer in the world on a Merlin, to the point that its nothing but tank, ab and scram, and your looking at like 11000, with a signature the size of a destroyer. The incursus fairs better, that can get up to around 12000, with a sig of 42 and a web.

Punisher can do 19000, plus 290 per cycle coming from a rep in the new 5th lowslot, with a sig of 37, and still enough fitting left for a reasonable 120 close orbit dps to assist the small gang its tackling for, bring the target down a few seconds earlier.

If you need a 5mil frig to just hold a mother****er down while being pounded on by 200-300-400-500 dps, and live a consistent period of time every time, with a buffer immune to neuts, pilot error, or being alpha'd, you can't get anything else to do it as well.

The game has countless dozen solo frigs that are fast, can kite, can project good damage at good distance, etc etc etc.

It doesn't need yet another identical one with a different skin. These changes will see a lot of interesting fittings spring up for it that aren't just the boring addition of a web everyone had in mind before.


The sig on the merlin doesn't matter because it has a WEB which does more for it avoiding damage from bigger targets than having a bit more buffer. Bait without a web is pretty fail.

And even if you have no clue how that works, remove the web from the merlin and add another extender or asb. You can fit a lot of ships to tank a shocking amount of damage and not be as obvious as a punisher that can ALSO do other fits.
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
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#550 - 2015-11-15 08:21:37 UTC
Shalashaska Adam wrote:


Well, as far as our use is concerned, a Tristan nor a Tormentor provide what we need, and a small neut is of no benefit to neutralizing the incoming damage of a cruiser, the slot currently goes empty, and even with the new fitting space enabling a neut in addition to the tank we fit it with now, we will be using the new fitting space for other things.

There will be many other interesting fits popping up that its new slots and fitting space enable, besides the one we use.

What interesting fits would it get if it was made to be like everything else? Nothing that hasn't been standard for years, and if its not made to be better than others in that standard role, then it still won't be used. At least it is the best at something, rather than just mediocre at everything.

The punisher change doesn't make or break the ship for us, we've happily used it for a quite a while and would continue to do so buff or not. But for what we use it for the buffs are very beneficial. Our heavy tackler is quite pleased.

So I don't think everybody will be ignoring it.


The small neut isn't for a futile attempt at disrupting a cruiser, it's specifically for anti logi frigate duty.

One could argue that a 'heavy tackle frigate' should fit a nos in order to keep it's scram online against incoming neuts and for keeping the guns running. Though, flyhing a 'heavy tackle frigate' that is only 200m/s faster than a thorax is pretty laughable in a lot of situations.

With the punisher losing it's utility high the only other amarr combat frigate with a utility high will be the executioner. While being inferior to the tristan for novice plexes, it had a use.

One punisher to each logi frigate and you'd heavily disrupt them. The tristan does the job better because it can fit two neuts and put it's drones on the primary target while doing it's neuting, while other frigates are usually stuck with having to shoot the logi frigate they are neuting.

After this change we'll be forced to use armor slicers if we want to have a neut and more than the paper tank of an executioner. It's better at that job than the punisher now anyway, but it's a more expensive option.
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
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#551 - 2015-11-15 09:05:29 UTC
Shalashaska Adam wrote:


Tanking is the defining attribute of a heavy tackle role.

What does losing the utility high do, if its being used in a role to heavy tackle cruisers and up.

Its capacitor is strong enough to resist a small neut, and a small nos does not prevent a medium neut from capping you out just the same. Whether the scram goes off still comes down to a dice roll on how closely the medium neuts cycle hits you in comparison to the start of the next scram cycle. As its capacitor regeneration is very good by itself, it can keep the scram up quite tenaciously in the face of a medium neut. The addition of a nos doesn't really increase that chance in practice. A small neut is also obviously pointless in that role. The fit we currently roll for it has no use for the utility high, so the 4th gun being added is purely a bonus.

I imagine you are still requiring it to be a solo frigate, and wont imagine what use it's buffs could be to any role outside of that. Does the concept of a T1 frigate meant for small gangs really seem that abhorrent that it would just be better removed entirely if it's not going to be made into another cookie cutter clone solo frig, which the tormentor already fills just fine for T1 amarr.

It has more slots and fitting at its disposal now than any other T1 frigate in the game. A slicer might also have 5 lows but a slicer is basically the polar opposite kind of frigate to the punisher, which also has far more cpu and powergrid in addition to its even resists and resist bonus on top of that.

It has a role, and it is capable of performing it excellently. Might not be the role which you would like to fly it in, but it's not a do-it-all frigate. Luckily I imagine there's several dozen frigates that are precisely what you are looking for.


Fitted, it's slow. We're talking cruiser speed slow. A shield thorax goes faster and has more ehp. It's a frigate, you know, a ship class that depends heavily on speed/sig to mitigate damage.

It has no web to slow down a cruiser, so it's useless for tackling many ships{sansha ships, oversize AB ships, ab cruiser with web), and it's easier for the cruiser to apply it's dps because of relative speeds.

Other frigates can do multiple roles. All the punisher can do is armor buffer with gimped mids. It doesn't need to be a good solo ship, but it's gang potential is equally bad compared to the alternatives.

Tiericide removed the utility highs on many ships. That utility high on the punisher was the one thing it had going for it compared to some of the alternatives.

Tanking is not a role. Other ships can do impressive tanks, the punisher being X% better at only armor buffer = garbage. What can you use that for? Baiting. How many ships in the game can be used as bait that aren't as obvious as a punisher?

It's a ship with tons of downsides, with one teeny tiny niche that can be done by other ships just fine.
Shalashaska Adam
Snakes and Lasers
#552 - 2015-11-15 18:54:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Shalashaska Adam
Templar Dane wrote:
The sig on the merlin doesn't matter because it has a WEB which does more for it avoiding damage from bigger targets than having a bit more buffer. Bait without a web is pretty fail.


The sig has an enormous impact on the incoming damage of the widest possible array of cruisers/battlecruisers.

A web does not reduce the incoming damage of any tackled missile ship, and any target the punisher can already easily outpace while scrammed, which is the vast majority, it would only very briefly assist in setting up a close orbit, which it manages now very easily. If the target is some 100MN orthrus or the like, it's not being held web or no web. Every turret ship that gets scrammed, gets orbited under its tracking moments later. The signature size is the single most powerful attribute in the scenario besides the ehp itself. Every point of it counts towards the life expectancy when its being pounded on by missiles or setting up a stable hold.

Granted we may simply have different small gang compositions in mind. We use a single heavy tackle. A web is not useless, far from it, would be useful offensively, but we are used to what the ship can hold, and welcome the different buffs.

Quote:
remove the web from the merlin and add another extender or asb. You can fit a lot of ships to tank a shocking amount of damage and not be as obvious as a punisher that can ALSO do other fits.


See the posts above, the comparison I made was with a webless max tanked merlin. We have tried all other options many times, in the case of the merlin, its sig kills it. The second best option to the punisher is the incursus, which is better when holding faster prey that do less damage and can be killed quickly, but far inferior at holding large prey that cant escape anyway, but do a ton of damage and take time to bring down. The punisher is the endurance option by a country mile.

Quote:
The small neut isn't for a futile attempt at disrupting a cruiser, it's specifically for anti logi frigate duty.


In half a year we've not been in a situation that requires that function. If we have our single tackle punisher attacking a frigate gang with frigate logi, we don't send it slow boating after the logi anyway, we just latch it onto the most expensive targets in order and use the other half of our composition to destroy or drive off grid any squishy support. Basically every single target we do scram, is ether too large for a small neut to have any effect, or not dangerous enough to bother neuting before its dead.

Quote:
One could argue that a 'heavy tackle frigate' should fit a nos in order to keep it's scram online against incoming neuts and for keeping the guns running. Though, flyhing a 'heavy tackle frigate' that is only 200m/s faster than a thorax is pretty laughable in a lot of situations.


See the posts above for when I addressed the use of a nos. Long story short it doesn't prevent cap out from a medium neut, isn't needed at all against a small neut, doesn't fit today without compromising the tank, and even when it will fit in December it's still an option we have practically tested and decided isn't worth it. The guns we have fitted on it don't need any cap.

Quote:
One punisher to each logi frigate and you'd heavily disrupt them. The tristan does the job better because it can fit two neuts and put it's drones on the primary target while doing it's neuting, while other frigates are usually stuck with having to shoot the logi frigate they are neuting.


Sounds like your coming from the perspective of having the gang all flying the same punisher. If that is the case then yes there's numerous better options. I'm coming from the perspective of having a single punisher in the gang that performs a specific unique role.

If it lands in scram range of a cruiser that it only just barely outpaces, then it's still operating just fine. A mwd cruiser escaping I can't recall has ever happened, an AB+web cruiser possibly, though that's been a problem in a very tiny fraction of cases. A web would be nice sure, but you can already do that fit with an incursus if you want, you just trade a lot of tank for it, which is a fair trade and an option already in the game and doesn't need to be duplicated.

You say that the buffer is only useful as a bait, but then rebuke that point by saying it's the most likely T1 frig to be a bait. I don't disagree with that, it is the most obvious bait, but it works anyway. If that tank is useful to a bait, then it is useful to a heavy tackle for the same reasons, the endurance of being able to hold the target. That remains the same once on grid whether it warped to the tackle or the tackle warped to it. Vast majority of the time it's the latter, but the tank serves the same purpose.

We simply have vastly different fleet comps in mind, so I'm sure the incursus or tristan are indeed far better for you.
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
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#553 - 2015-11-15 21:34:12 UTC
Shalashaska Adam wrote:


stuff.


I just checked the punisher fit you're talking about. You're baiting and ganking. Dragoon can get a buffer like that and a vengeance can put it to shame, while having a web. And most of the individuals you're ganking would bite on a vengeance just as they would a punisher.

While the vengeance may not fit in a novice, all the ganks I'm seeing have T3Ds on them so that's not an issue. The punisher would be a terrible ship for baiting in a novice because anything with a web is going to GTFO when you spike local.

The vengeance may cost more but you'd lose fewer of them....especially if you used the utility highs on your confessors for RR. The vengeance also has/had a reputation for being a solo ship, where a punisher is only good for bait and everyone with two brain cells knows that's all it can do.

The fights we get over here aren't ganks. They're fights against superior numbers, and logi is almost always involved. We favor neut comets above all, cruors and tristans......and then punishers. Those ships are specifically picked because they have at least one utility high and bring some dps. Of those ships the punisher is by far the worst, and mostly only used for RP reasons.

Because the fights over here aren't pure gankfests we need our ships to actually contribute to a fight. This upcoming change takes away it's utility high, making it worthless in the fleet fights....and since it's a terrible solo ship......might as well reprocess them and get tristans.
Shalashaska Adam
Snakes and Lasers
#554 - 2015-11-15 23:09:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Shalashaska Adam
Templar Dane wrote:


I just checked the punisher fit you're talking about. You're baiting and ganking. Dragoon can get a buffer like that and a vengeance can put it to shame, while having a web. And most of the individuals you're ganking would bite on a vengeance just as they would a punisher.


Put the fit a few pages back.

We've run vengeances and retributions, neither comes close to the cost effectiveness now, let alone in December. Both also quite a bit slower, to the point where it starts to become an issue holding larger things. The price of them also means they have to be used a lot more reservedly, and we can't be as daring with it. Currently if we want to go for a large target that may have backup, and we have just two guys, then we lose a 5m punisher, or more than often it escapes. I'm sure if you've checked you can get a sense from the all-time list how often it is just two people.

For example we had a 230m oracle a week ago that had a tengu friend, we were able to snipe it with one fessor while the punisher sat there eating the tengus attempts to shake it off. After the oracle went down we had a good shot on the tengu and fought that for a minute or so before more reinforcements came, but in the end we lost a throwaway 5m tackle for the 230m oracle, with just one sniper in the gang.

We did the same on a Hyperion, that the punisher held long enough to be killed, followed by a 1b CNR that warped in to save it, which then got scrammed by the punisher right after and went down next, same with a Tempest a little earlier with just two snipers at the time.

It holds big targets excellently for a long duration, but can also stand up to attack from many small targets for a long duration also. Nothing else can perform the task as well in as many varied scenarios, we tested them practically in each instance to determine which was right in the largest number of engagements.

The advent of the sniper mode hecate/fessor has put almost double the dps in each sniper compared to the cormorants before, but the punisher did its job just the same back then, killing things like ashimmus and gnosis's with just 2 cormorants. Takes a bait that can hold that target for a damn long time.
Shalashaska Adam
Snakes and Lasers
#555 - 2015-11-15 23:18:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Shalashaska Adam
Quote:
While the vengeance may not fit in a novice, all the ganks I'm seeing have T3Ds on them so that's not an issue. The punisher would be a terrible ship for baiting in a novice because anything with a web is going to GTFO when you spike local.


It goes after targets in all cases these days, unless a target has already demonstrated it's willingness to come to us, which usually involves the use of the buffer doing dances to draw that interest in the first place. As it does just fine holding T3D's, cruisers, battlecruisers, even battleships on occasion, that every time we have tried more expensive options, its just not seemed at all worth it. Certainly not when, as mentioned above, we then feel the need to be less daring with it, as opposed to the substantial ability it provides now for a cost so small that t1 loot alone pays many times what the supply of punishers costs.

As we don't go inside novice's it's not what the ship is on dscan that matters to us, it's how good it is for its price.

Quote:
The vengeance may cost more but you'd lose fewer of them....especially if you used the utility highs on your confessors for RR. The vengeance also has/had a reputation for being a solo ship, where a punisher is only good for bait and everyone with two brain cells knows that's all it can do.


When substantial backup arrives that simply is far too large to deal with, a vengeance would die in basically every scenario the punisher does. The buffer it can mount, especially after December, is hardly an improvement at all, and we can roll out 6-7 of the punishers for the same price as one vengeance. While the doctrine is based around taking control of a fight, it also currently has the advantage that when control is lost, 99% of the time it's only a 5m punisher that's biting the dust, the next one being about 30 seconds away. We found the retribution better then the vengeance back when we were trying all the possible options, but the punisher still took the lead by a mile in effectiveness to efficiency.

Taking multiple cruisers, or a battlecruiser or larger, with just one punisher successfully tackling and holding something for a long time to be chewed on, isn't a gank. Such a buffer wouldn't be needed if every target died in gank-like speed. One punisher and one sniper wins those fights with a combination of the punishers tank and the snipers range and defensive ewar. Nor really is having a punisher and a couple of snipers against much larger groups of frigates and dessies. Ganks happen sure, who is going to let a juicy faction frigate go just because its too easy to kill. But its strength is being able to go for big things, hold them for sometimes an extreme duration, so they can be brought down by a comp that uses versatile small sized weapons to both track and defeat frigates and pour enough dps into a cruiser or larger.

Operating at 70km sort of excludes the possibility of using small remote reps on the snipers, however the tracking disruptor, and soon missile disruptor, also coming in December, are both super useful and are made to function at that range.

When the space is full of frigate and dessy gangs of 10-20 strong, the doctrine has given us the flexibility to be cost effective no matter the number of guests. It works with one punisher and one sniper, and many big things have gone down to just a pair. However more can be added, to bring bigger things down quicker, or to sit the punisher in the midst of larger enemy gangs and maintain control of the situation.

Most engagements make real use of the punishers buffer, meaning they take some time to bring down, a sniper and the punisher is a combined dps of a typical cruiser, but it can go from engagement to engagement and when the blob comes it can disengage efficiently, wear as two cruisers, or a vengeance/retribution, would get caught and killed every time.

A permanent change to a retribution or a vengeance, for the sake of a fraction of extra buffer per tackle compared to a 6-7x increase in cost per loss, would change the disposable nature of the bait entirely. We don't claim exceptional piloting, but the first time we did punisher+cormorants, it worked far better than anything else at the time, and its simple for guest snipers to join in.

So, in that, very small niche, the punisher is indeed the best option. We see it more as ammunition than as an individual ship we don't want to lose. However come December I think that quite a few other fleet uses will start to pop up for it.
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
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#556 - 2015-11-16 14:33:49 UTC
Shalashaska Adam wrote:
Quote:
While the vengeance may not fit in a novice, all the ganks I'm seeing have T3Ds on them so that's not an issue. The punisher would be a terrible ship for baiting in a novice because anything with a web is going to GTFO when you spike local.


It goes after targets in all cases these days, unless a target has already demonstrated it's willingness to come to us, which usually involves the use of the buffer doing dances to draw that interest in the first place. As it does just fine holding T3D's, cruisers, battlecruisers, even battleships on occasion, that every time we have tried more expensive options, its just not seemed at all worth it. Certainly not when, as mentioned above, we then feel the need to be less daring with it, as opposed to the substantial ability it provides now for a cost so small that t1 loot alone pays many times what the supply of punishers costs.

As we don't go inside novice's it's not what the ship is on dscan that matters to us, it's how good it is for its price.

Quote:
The vengeance may cost more but you'd lose fewer of them....especially if you used the utility highs on your confessors for RR. The vengeance also has/had a reputation for being a solo ship, where a punisher is only good for bait and everyone with two brain cells knows that's all it can do.


When substantial backup arrives that simply is far too large to deal with, a vengeance would die in basically every scenario the punisher does. The buffer it can mount, especially after December, is hardly an improvement at all, and we can roll out 6-7 of the punishers for the same price as one vengeance. While the doctrine is based around taking control of a fight, it also currently has the advantage that when control is lost, 99% of the time it's only a 5m punisher that's biting the dust, the next one being about 30 seconds away. We found the retribution better then the vengeance back when we were trying all the possible options, but the punisher still took the lead by a mile in effectiveness to efficiency.

Taking multiple cruisers, or a battlecruiser or larger, with just one punisher successfully tackling and holding something for a long time to be chewed on, isn't a gank. Such a buffer wouldn't be needed if every target died in gank-like speed. One punisher and one sniper wins those fights with a combination of the punishers tank and the snipers range and defensive ewar. Nor really is having a punisher and a couple of snipers against much larger groups of frigates and dessies. Ganks happen sure, who is going to let a juicy faction frigate go just because its too easy to kill. But its strength is being able to go for big things, hold them for sometimes an extreme duration, so they can be brought down by a comp that uses versatile small sized weapons to both track and defeat frigates and pour enough dps into a cruiser or larger.

Operating at 70km sort of excludes the possibility of using small remote reps on the snipers, however the tracking disruptor, and soon missile disruptor, also coming in December, are both super useful and are made to function at that range.

When the space is full of frigate and dessy gangs of 10-20 strong, the doctrine has given us the flexibility to be cost effective no matter the number of guests. It works with one punisher and one sniper, and many big things have gone down to just a pair. However more can be added, to bring bigger things down quicker, or to sit the punisher in the midst of larger enemy gangs and maintain control of the situation.

Most engagements make real use of the punishers buffer, meaning they take some time to bring down, a sniper and the punisher is a combined dps of a typical cruiser, but it can go from engagement to engagement and when the blob comes it can disengage efficiently, wear as two cruisers, or a vengeance/retribution, would get caught and killed every time.

A permanent change to a retribution or a vengeance, for the sake of a fraction of extra buffer per tackle compared to a 6-7x increase in cost per loss, would change the disposable nature of the bait entirely. We don't claim exceptional piloting, but the first time we did punisher+cormorants, it worked far better than anything else at the time, and its simple for guest snipers to join in.

So, in that, very small niche, the punisher is indeed the best option. We see it more as ammunition than as an individual ship we don't want to lose. However come December I think that quite a few other fleet uses will start to pop up for it.


You're championing the punisher change so that you can continue to use it to use it as disposable tackle for sniping fleets.

The idea I put forward earlier, it looks like.........


2-3 highs
2-3 mids
4 lows

2 launcher/2 turret

Resist bonus/drone hp/tracking

20 bandwidth/40 or 60 dronebay.

Now it's a smaller dragoon/prophecy/armageddon, filling the role that's absent from the frigate line. It has less bandwidth than the tristan so it doesn't step on it's toes as much, while still being a useful ship that could fulfill multiple roles. It's lower dps makes up for it's better buffer.

They kept adjusting the punisher's fitting because it's a bad ship, instead of just making it do something else and giving it a real role.

Hell, I wouldn't mind the maller getting the same treatment. If they did that the entire line would make sense, except the abaddon would look kind of odd. I always thought it would make more sense for the abaddon to have been the drone ship and the armageddon to have stayed a gun boat.
Shalashaska Adam
Snakes and Lasers
#557 - 2015-11-17 00:45:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Shalashaska Adam
Templar Dane wrote:
You're championing the punisher change so that you can continue to use it to use it as disposable tackle for sniping fleets.


Yes.

But also simply to prove it has it's role, and can be better at something than any other frigate.

Which I find more interesting than trying to make them all alike.

When we want less tank but a third mid-slot, we already have that frigate, the incursus.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#558 - 2015-11-17 01:17:26 UTC
Shalashaska Adam wrote:
Templar Dane wrote:
You're championing the punisher change so that you can continue to use it to use it as disposable tackle for sniping fleets.


Yes.

But also simply to prove it has it's role, and can be better at something than any other frigate.

Which I find more interesting than trying to make them all alike.

When we want less tank but a third mid-slot, we already have that frigate, the incursus.

I have to say that i agree with you on multiple counts. While the web would certainly be nice, the tank and gank role they have proposed here is ideal; that much shouldn't be in dispute, especially considering the abuse a 3rd mid would lend towards a cap booster in active tanking (we don't need a 2nd incursus anyway; would be boring).

However, i would prefer that they avoid the idea of making the punisher a special snowflake that gets an extra slot, buff the capacitor as they are proposing, and move that utility high down to a low slot. The third mid is a non-issue that comes from having the convenience of a web, which isn't necessary for the heavy tackle ab/scram fits that the punisher excels at.

TBH I'd actually prefer they do the 4 gun idea on the Executioner. Removing the damage bonus in favor of tracking speed would be perfect since it would give it better viability with beams, and nobody uses the damn utility slot on it anyway.
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#559 - 2015-11-17 04:55:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Templar Dane
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Shalashaska Adam wrote:
Templar Dane wrote:
You're championing the punisher change so that you can continue to use it to use it as disposable tackle for sniping fleets.


Yes.

But also simply to prove it has it's role, and can be better at something than any other frigate.

Which I find more interesting than trying to make them all alike.

When we want less tank but a third mid-slot, we already have that frigate, the incursus.

I have to say that i agree with you on multiple counts. While the web would certainly be nice, the tank and gank role they have proposed here is ideal; that much shouldn't be in dispute, especially considering the abuse a 3rd mid would lend towards a cap booster in active tanking (we don't need a 2nd incursus anyway; would be boring).

However, i would prefer that they avoid the idea of making the punisher a special snowflake that gets an extra slot, buff the capacitor as they are proposing, and move that utility high down to a low slot. The third mid is a non-issue that comes from having the convenience of a web, which isn't necessary for the heavy tackle ab/scram fits that the punisher excels at.

TBH I'd actually prefer they do the 4 gun idea on the Executioner. Removing the damage bonus in favor of tracking speed would be perfect since it would give it better viability with beams, and nobody uses the damn utility slot on it anyway.


This is the punisher fit he thinks makes the ship.

[Punisher, dangobobo's Punisher]
400mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates
400mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

1MN Y-S8 Compact Afterburner
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I

125mm Gatling AutoCannon II,Hail S
125mm Gatling AutoCannon II,Hail S
125mm Gatling AutoCannon II,Hail S

Small Trimark Armor Pump I
Small Trimark Armor Pump I
Small Trimark Armor Pump I


He wants these changes to go through so he can upgrade the plates and add more resists. By 'tank and gank' he means, 'tank while something else ganks'.

If you think the punisher becoming a drone ship and getting another mid somehow makes it the same as the tormentor........

atron-3 mids, fast tackle, guns
incursus-guns, 3 mids, active tank
tristan-drones, 3 mids

executioner-3 mids, fast tackle, guns
tormentor-3mids, guns
punisher-2 mids, guns

Guns, guns, gimped midslot guns. That's such a diverse lineup.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#560 - 2015-11-17 06:19:01 UTC
Templar Dane wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Shalashaska Adam wrote:
Templar Dane wrote:
You're championing the punisher change so that you can continue to use it to use it as disposable tackle for sniping fleets.


Yes.

But also simply to prove it has it's role, and can be better at something than any other frigate.

Which I find more interesting than trying to make them all alike.

When we want less tank but a third mid-slot, we already have that frigate, the incursus.

I have to say that i agree with you on multiple counts. While the web would certainly be nice, the tank and gank role they have proposed here is ideal; that much shouldn't be in dispute, especially considering the abuse a 3rd mid would lend towards a cap booster in active tanking (we don't need a 2nd incursus anyway; would be boring).

However, i would prefer that they avoid the idea of making the punisher a special snowflake that gets an extra slot, buff the capacitor as they are proposing, and move that utility high down to a low slot. The third mid is a non-issue that comes from having the convenience of a web, which isn't necessary for the heavy tackle ab/scram fits that the punisher excels at.

TBH I'd actually prefer they do the 4 gun idea on the Executioner. Removing the damage bonus in favor of tracking speed would be perfect since it would give it better viability with beams, and nobody uses the damn utility slot on it anyway.


This is the punisher fit he thinks makes the ship.

[Punisher, dangobobo's Punisher]
400mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates
400mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

1MN Y-S8 Compact Afterburner
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I

125mm Gatling AutoCannon II,Hail S
125mm Gatling AutoCannon II,Hail S
125mm Gatling AutoCannon II,Hail S

Small Trimark Armor Pump I
Small Trimark Armor Pump I
Small Trimark Armor Pump I


He wants these changes to go through so he can upgrade the plates and add more resists. By 'tank and gank' he means, 'tank while something else ganks'.

If you think the punisher becoming a drone ship and getting another mid somehow makes it the same as the tormentor........

atron-3 mids, fast tackle, guns
incursus-guns, 3 mids, active tank
tristan-drones, 3 mids

executioner-3 mids, fast tackle, guns
tormentor-3mids, guns
punisher-2 mids, guns

Guns, guns, gimped midslot guns. That's such a diverse lineup.

For one, split weapons are idiotic; we learned that wayyy back in the day with the split weapons merlin. I have been of the opinion that amarr drone boats should field a full rack of unbonused missile launchers, but that's just me.

Secondly, what's your point? If it works for him then it works, even if it's a stupidly small niche with a very specific fit. What I was saying earlier was that for what the punisher does it doesn't need a 3rd mid slot for what you do with it. The tormentor has one and it does just fine on its own because it's faster, and has some drones to work with.

What i would prefer they do, actually, is just go with 3 high slots and 5 lows and keep the damage bonus. There's literally no reason whatsoever to make the Punisher the exception out of the ENTIRE frigate lineup for slot numbers; they got rid of the utility high on the Maller for a reason when they were doing cruiser balance.

As per the ships you list, they're an irrelevant comparison because they have different roles and different needs. Obviously it make sense to have 3 or more mid slots on a fast kiter; the Crusader suffers pretty badly from not having this although it's more due to its lack of fitting space and capacitor for running beams. The Incursus kind of needs 3 mids in any case because it's an active tank AND it uses blasters, so it has **** range control and a hungry capacitor to deal with.
The atron and executioner are fast tacklers (see my idea about the executioner earlier for how to balance it), and the tormentor is built as a flexible solo frigate, so it has the speed and damage to be better suited to kiting to begin with.

The punisher's role IS heavy tackle, and is both better at it than any other t1 frigate in the game and worse at other roles. There's nothing wrong with specialization as long as it fulfills that role adequately. The point you don't seem to be understanding here is that it's not NECESSARY to have a webifier if you're heavy tackle. It helps, certainly, but it's not essential. Other ships like the Breacher or Incursus are sensible for mwd/full tackle because they have the speed and burst tank to hold on and out long enough against higher dps, but as Shalasaska pointed out, the Punisher excels at damage mitigation; dramatically more so than any other frigate for its price. The fact that it can hold on and hump your leg like a dog without anything short of a destroyer or AF being able to put so much as a dent in it makes it invaluable in any case, and there's no reason to make it another cookie-cutter t1 frigate without any real distinguishing features to it.