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[December] Balance Smorgasbord

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Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#481 - 2015-10-30 22:28:30 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:
Idame Isqua wrote:
I agree with all this

First though Caldari faction ship needs a viable hull for fleets
Secondly it then needs a viable hull for 1v1s



I'm always the first to speak up for Caldari but the Navy Osprey is really good after these changes Smile, still good for kiting maybe it could even scram kite if you want. It's got speed and agillity + decent dps + utillity highs + 6 mids for range control and/or tank. It's way better than you seem to think, clearly better than the t1 caracal, far superior to the the Navy Caracal, you couldn't ask for a better solo/small gang cruiser.

I agree with the rest, I don't know why nothing has been done with the Navy Caracal but I'm hoping it's because they plan to swap it for a Navy Moa with Optimal and dmg bonuses which would be your fleet doctrine. Then give Stabber Fleet Issue more pwg for 425mm autocannons and 1600 plate, change the 5% rof to 10% dmg for better dps/alpha and we have full line up of good Navy Cruisers. Some will be better or more useful than others but overall it would be balanced between the races: VNI way out front of course but somewhat balanced by the fact the Navy Exeq is limited. Caldari would have two very good cruisers, Nosprey for solo and small gang, Navy Moa for sniper doctinres. Minmattar would have the already good ScyFi, and the Stabber would be one of the best with 4k alpha and pretty fast lock time it would work be amazing alpha doctrine, or solo brawler with autocannons. Amarr already have two good navy cruisers.

To summarise for Navy cruisers what i'd like to see:

1) Navy Caracal changed for a Navy Moa

2) Stabber get enough PG so it can fit 1600plate with 425mm autocannons and prop mod for brawling, or arty fit for alpha gangs. Also change ROF bonus to 10% damage bonus in line with the excellent BC changes giving minnie a standout medium projectile Cruiser.

3) Either nerf VNI and buff Navy Exeq, or leave them as they are.



For frigates I would have taken the dps and selectable damage buff on the Hookbill as a step in the right direction, but that was before I seen the Navy Ewar frigs, and given the state of them bastards there's no way. Gallente will get two of the best by far, both the Navy Maulus and Comet outclass the Hookbill and Griffin by miles, while Amarr not only get what looks to me like the weakest of the lot in the shape of Navy Crucifier but the Slicer will also be supplanted by the Fleet Vigil as strong but affordable kiter.

Changes I'd like to see for faction frigs:

1) Navy Griffen and Navy Crucifer lose the -85% range gimp. It's ridiculous and unheard of, this is non-negotiable. If they're worried about these being annoying to fight they're absolutely right... but they'll definitely be less oppressive than a drone scram kiter with +50% range to scram, or a lml kiter that's just slightly slower than a Garmur, does 160dps cold, 20km defensive web, and an application bonus thrown in for good measure. If you're going to make two OP almost untouchable ships might as well let the other two use their ewar and be done with it. The Navy Griffin will basically use ecm to disengage from kiters making him an unattractive target, while the Navy Crucifer will be able to kite or force players into brawl range if he wants. Either get used to that or scrap the whole idea, do not gimp two races while the other two are allowed to ponce around in unfightable pwnships X

2) Make the EWAR frigs cost 30-40k lp so the standard Navy frigs are there as a cheap alternative. The idea that these can be mixed in with existing frigs when they have pirate ship bonuses like 50% web and scram range is crazy. This would also make them more attractive targets and less prone to abuse.

3) Navy Griffin and Navy Vigil lose ALL drones. Navy Crucifier +5 drone bandwidth +10 dronebay. Navy Maulus speed nerf please so it's not auto win or at worst never lose for anyone who knows what they're doing.

4) +2PG and +15CPU for Hookbill, +10% base speed. +10 drone bandwidth and dronebay for the Firetail

5) Comet lose it's spare drones. Already gets great dps from hybrids and solid tank too so at least give us a chance to kill off it's drone dps.



That would be balanced for me.

Idk about the navy moa idea; the caracal navy issue just needs a tad more love to work properly. I'd say giving it a 6/6/3 slot layout with the application bonus swapped for a resist bonus would go a long friggin way to helping it becoming interesting. As per the frigs, a +3 pg increase would bring the hookbill in line with the firetail and comet, so no major qualms there. As weird as it is that we don't have a good rail boat, i think them changing out the navy exeq to have 10% damage per level and 10% optimal range per level would be an acceptable route to go.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#482 - 2015-10-31 01:45:27 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Fourteen Maken wrote:
Idame Isqua wrote:
I agree with all this

First though Caldari faction ship needs a viable hull for fleets
Secondly it then needs a viable hull for 1v1s



I'm always the first to speak up for Caldari but the Navy Osprey is really good after these changes Smile, still good for kiting maybe it could even scram kite if you want. It's got speed and agillity + decent dps + utillity highs + 6 mids for range control and/or tank. It's way better than you seem to think, clearly better than the t1 caracal, far superior to the the Navy Caracal, you couldn't ask for a better solo/small gang cruiser.

I agree with the rest, I don't know why nothing has been done with the Navy Caracal but I'm hoping it's because they plan to swap it for a Navy Moa with Optimal and dmg bonuses which would be your fleet doctrine. Then give Stabber Fleet Issue more pwg for 425mm autocannons and 1600 plate, change the 5% rof to 10% dmg for better dps/alpha and we have full line up of good Navy Cruisers. Some will be better or more useful than others but overall it would be balanced between the races: VNI way out front of course but somewhat balanced by the fact the Navy Exeq is limited. Caldari would have two very good cruisers, Nosprey for solo and small gang, Navy Moa for sniper doctinres. Minmattar would have the already good ScyFi, and the Stabber would be one of the best with 4k alpha and pretty fast lock time it would work be amazing alpha doctrine, or solo brawler with autocannons. Amarr already have two good navy cruisers.

To summarise for Navy cruisers what i'd like to see:

1) Navy Caracal changed for a Navy Moa

2) Stabber get enough PG so it can fit 1600plate with 425mm autocannons and prop mod for brawling, or arty fit for alpha gangs. Also change ROF bonus to 10% damage bonus in line with the excellent BC changes giving minnie a standout medium projectile Cruiser.

3) Either nerf VNI and buff Navy Exeq, or leave them as they are.



For frigates I would have taken the dps and selectable damage buff on the Hookbill as a step in the right direction, but that was before I seen the Navy Ewar frigs, and given the state of them bastards there's no way. Gallente will get two of the best by far, both the Navy Maulus and Comet outclass the Hookbill and Griffin by miles, while Amarr not only get what looks to me like the weakest of the lot in the shape of Navy Crucifier but the Slicer will also be supplanted by the Fleet Vigil as strong but affordable kiter.

Changes I'd like to see for faction frigs:

1) Navy Griffen and Navy Crucifer lose the -85% range gimp. It's ridiculous and unheard of, this is non-negotiable. If they're worried about these being annoying to fight they're absolutely right... but they'll definitely be less oppressive than a drone scram kiter with +50% range to scram, or a lml kiter that's just slightly slower than a Garmur, does 160dps cold, 20km defensive web, and an application bonus thrown in for good measure. If you're going to make two OP almost untouchable ships might as well let the other two use their ewar and be done with it. The Navy Griffin will basically use ecm to disengage from kiters making him an unattractive target, while the Navy Crucifer will be able to kite or force players into brawl range if he wants. Either get used to that or scrap the whole idea, do not gimp two races while the other two are allowed to ponce around in unfightable pwnships X

2) Make the EWAR frigs cost 30-40k lp so the standard Navy frigs are there as a cheap alternative. The idea that these can be mixed in with existing frigs when they have pirate ship bonuses like 50% web and scram range is crazy. This would also make them more attractive targets and less prone to abuse.

3) Navy Griffin and Navy Vigil lose ALL drones. Navy Crucifier +5 drone bandwidth +10 dronebay. Navy Maulus speed nerf please so it's not auto win or at worst never lose for anyone who knows what they're doing.

4) +2PG and +15CPU for Hookbill, +10% base speed. +10 drone bandwidth and dronebay for the Firetail

5) Comet lose it's spare drones. Already gets great dps from hybrids and solid tank too so at least give us a chance to kill off it's drone dps.



That would be balanced for me.

Idk about the navy moa idea; the caracal navy issue just needs a tad more love to work properly. I'd say giving it a 6/6/3 slot layout with the application bonus swapped for a resist bonus would go a long friggin way to helping it becoming interesting. As per the frigs, a +3 pg increase would bring the hookbill in line with the firetail and comet, so no major qualms there. As weird as it is that we don't have a good rail boat, i think them changing out the navy exeq to have 10% damage per level and 10% optimal range per level would be an acceptable route to go.


jesus caldari bro's you're killing me here. Navy Moa would be a good addition, you don't like it, other dude doesn't like the Navy Osprey, w0lf just likes everything. Lol

But seriously giving Gallente hybrid optimal bonus is not acceptable - it's outrageous. Like giving lasers to the rust. Gallente are blasters with tracking/dps bonuses and big drone bays, Caldari get the sniper boats, some of the best Caldari hulls are snipers: Cormorant, Eagle, Ferox, Rokh, Rail Tengu, Sniper Harpy... a Navy cruiser with optimal bonus is exactly what Caldari need now with the Navy Osprey looking good.

Tell me about your Navy Caracal... tell me what I'm meant to do with that? Can't brawl, can't kite, can't break an active tank... what's the point of it? What is it's purpose in life, in a world of ScyFi's and Orthuruses, cheap t1 Caracals, and soon to be Navy Ospreys... what am I meant to do with a resist bonus and 3 lows?
Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#483 - 2015-10-31 16:25:12 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:
what am I meant to do with a resist bonus and 3 lows?


Explode a little slower than someone with 3 lows and no resist bonus?

Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#484 - 2015-10-31 23:53:42 UTC
Can someone explain to me the purpose of removing low slots from the Gila and Worm?

I get that they need balance, but I'm wondering if dropping a mid slot would have been more functional to nerf their tank, as opposed to their DPS.

I don't think their DPS is the issue, but I could be wrong.


That said, I still miss the days when the Rattlesnake could passive tank @ 2k hp/s with a t2 fit, and still have feasable dps, but maybe that was OP... Who knows...
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#485 - 2015-11-01 02:48:13 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Can someone explain to me the purpose of removing low slots from the Gila and Worm?

I get that they need balance, but I'm wondering if dropping a mid slot would have been more functional to nerf their tank, as opposed to their DPS.

I don't think their DPS is the issue, but I could be wrong.


That said, I still miss the days when the Rattlesnake could passive tank @ 2k hp/s with a t2 fit, and still have feasable dps, but maybe that was OP... Who knows...


Whilst their tank is a little too strong the main issue is their DPS and not only the amount but also the projection and flexibility along with it, the 2 uber drones with cruiser tank and the range they have is OP but the main issue is the DPS even this nerf won't reduce it enough but its better than nothing, but the -1 slot is consistent with all droneboats and the rattle should get the same treatment as all other droneboats have this minor drawback why should guristas get an exception.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#486 - 2015-11-01 03:09:33 UTC
Harvey James wrote:

Whilst their tank is a little too strong the main issue is their DPS and not only the amount but also the projection and flexibility along with it, the 2 uber drones with cruiser tank and the range they have is OP but the main issue is the DPS even this nerf won't reduce it enough but its better than nothing, but the -1 slot is consistent with all droneboats and the rattle should get the same treatment as all other droneboats have this minor drawback why should guristas get an exception.


It was an honest question.
I wasn't sure on what the main issue was.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#487 - 2015-11-01 09:09:39 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:


jesus caldari bro's you're killing me here. Navy Moa would be a good addition, you don't like it, other dude doesn't like the Navy Osprey, w0lf just likes everything. Lol

But seriously giving Gallente hybrid optimal bonus is not acceptable - it's outrageous. Like giving lasers to the rust. Gallente are blasters with tracking/dps bonuses and big drone bays, Caldari get the sniper boats, some of the best Caldari hulls are snipers: Cormorant, Eagle, Ferox, Rokh, Rail Tengu, Sniper Harpy... a Navy cruiser with optimal bonus is exactly what Caldari need now with the Navy Osprey looking good.

Tell me about your Navy Caracal... tell me what I'm meant to do with that? Can't brawl, can't kite, can't break an active tank... what's the point of it? What is it's purpose in life, in a world of ScyFi's and Orthuruses, cheap t1 Caracals, and soon to be Navy Ospreys... what am I meant to do with a resist bonus and 3 lows?


idk, sport an actual tank? Making it a smaller version of the Scorp navy is fine since the scorp navy does well enough on its own. As for the navy exeq, there's absolutely nothing wrong with giving it an optimal range bonus. While generally it's limited to Roden ships, saying that rails are exclusive to Caldari and Blasters are exclusive to Gallente is blatantly false, since hybrids are interchangeable between the two of them by design.

The issue limiting a navy caracal with resists specifically would just be fitting, the same goes for the hookbill. I just don't see it being atrocious enough to merit them completely changing out the ship; all it needs is a little more consistency and focus, and having it be in the same progression line as the navy scorpion rather than the navy raven seems just fine to me, especially from a survivability standpoint.

Maybe something like a shield equivalent of the navy aug would be in order? While i can see that having a resist bonus works out well enough for active tanking as well as buffer, it's kind of odd we don't see a ship in the shield lineup apart from the tengu with a shield HP bonus. Either way i'm happy with a tank bonus on it.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#488 - 2015-11-01 09:16:14 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Harvey James wrote:

Whilst their tank is a little too strong the main issue is their DPS and not only the amount but also the projection and flexibility along with it, the 2 uber drones with cruiser tank and the range they have is OP but the main issue is the DPS even this nerf won't reduce it enough but its better than nothing, but the -1 slot is consistent with all droneboats and the rattle should get the same treatment as all other droneboats have this minor drawback why should guristas get an exception.


It was an honest question.
I wasn't sure on what the main issue was.

To put it bluntly, they were way over the top with how they were being used. Gilas were/are just good at whatever you made them do, especially pvp, and the worm had little to no drawback for the amount of firepower and survivability it fielded. The low slot reduction was appropriate, as was the CPU due to the loss of a low negating the need for extra fitting.

They're not going to become crap after this; in fact the only real thing we'll see is a reduction in effective dps that was needed, and limiting the insane utility of the Gila. The rattler didn't receive the same treatment since it's in an alright place relative to other faction battleships, and whether or not it deserves to lose a slot is irrelevant since its role and performance really wouldn't change, and neither would it impact the ship negatively since it already has an abundance of low slots.

TLDR; don't worry they'll work just fine after the patch; they just won't hit quite as hard.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#489 - 2015-11-01 09:17:16 UTC
Khan Wrenth wrote:
Fourteen Maken wrote:
what am I meant to do with a resist bonus and 3 lows?


Explode a little slower than someone with 3 lows and no resist bonus?


Tank better assuming you get the fitting space to go along with it. Roll
typhoon Rinah
Heavily Redacted
Sky Daddy Ranch
#490 - 2015-11-01 10:29:10 UTC
So are we ever going to see Navy Destroyers?
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#491 - 2015-11-01 12:33:51 UTC
typhoon Rinah wrote:
So are we ever going to see Navy Destroyers?


No.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#492 - 2015-11-01 12:45:20 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
...To put it bluntly, they were way over the top with how they were being used. Gilas were/are just good at whatever you made them do, especially pvp, and the worm had little to no drawback for the amount of firepower and survivability it fielded...


Translation:

Gila killed Ibis, nerf Gila bwaaaaah.


I hate to break it to each and everyone crying for nerfs, pirate faction class ships are not for noobies. They are for veterans and not taken lightly.

Pirate > else.

How about a different approach? Instead of nerfing ships that used to be a joke for about decade, have them require 100+ million skillpoints to properly reflect the power they have since the two different racial trains you have to have doesn't quite do the job apperently.

And while we are crying nerfs so much and dps to much and whatever uneducated whine is popular these days, make all dps even.
The vigilant does more than 1000dps, nerf vigilant. bwaaaaahhh.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Odithia
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#493 - 2015-11-01 13:31:18 UTC
elitatwo wrote:

Pirate > else.

T3 > else*
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#494 - 2015-11-01 14:12:38 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Pirate > else.


No, you got that one wrong.

There's a lot more to that. The progression from T1 to T2/pirate/T3 is just a differentiation into various emphasized traits of ships, iE projection, resilence and mitigation for T2, mobility and raw dps for pirate, flexibility or adaptability - even though just in theory - for T3s that effectively makes them somewhat viable at everything at once or better than T2 at the HAC thing in particular.

Pirate ships aren't generally outpferoming T2 vessels of similar size, they're just offering a fundamentally different approach to pvp, T2 moves as a durable unit while pirate tends to move close and fight in pointrange (even if that's 40km cold for a machariel and 60km cold for an orthrus, or 20km railkite vigilants).
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#495 - 2015-11-01 14:40:24 UTC
typhoon Rinah wrote:
So are we ever going to see Navy Destroyers?


Well they are coming out with destroyers that utilize MJD. After im hoping no more small ships for awhile. We have the new exploration frigate, new logi frigs, new fleet frigs, recently released t3d... please for the love of Bob stop introducing new frig/dessies and introduce something new that is actually missing. Like pirate BCs, or more faction BCs. Or the missing pirate faction that is caldari/minmatar. Id like to see another ship line using projectiles. We have enough missile/drone ships as it is.

TL;DR: No more small ships please

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#496 - 2015-11-01 15:51:54 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Fourteen Maken wrote:


jesus caldari bro's you're killing me here. Navy Moa would be a good addition, you don't like it, other dude doesn't like the Navy Osprey, w0lf just likes everything. Lol

But seriously giving Gallente hybrid optimal bonus is not acceptable - it's outrageous. Like giving lasers to the rust. Gallente are blasters with tracking/dps bonuses and big drone bays, Caldari get the sniper boats, some of the best Caldari hulls are snipers: Cormorant, Eagle, Ferox, Rokh, Rail Tengu, Sniper Harpy... a Navy cruiser with optimal bonus is exactly what Caldari need now with the Navy Osprey looking good.

Tell me about your Navy Caracal... tell me what I'm meant to do with that? Can't brawl, can't kite, can't break an active tank... what's the point of it? What is it's purpose in life, in a world of ScyFi's and Orthuruses, cheap t1 Caracals, and soon to be Navy Ospreys... what am I meant to do with a resist bonus and 3 lows?


idk, sport an actual tank? Making it a smaller version of the Scorp navy is fine since the scorp navy does well enough on its own. As for the navy exeq, there's absolutely nothing wrong with giving it an optimal range bonus. While generally it's limited to Roden ships, saying that rails are exclusive to Caldari and Blasters are exclusive to Gallente is blatantly false, since hybrids are interchangeable between the two of them by design.

The issue limiting a navy caracal with resists specifically would just be fitting, the same goes for the hookbill. I just don't see it being atrocious enough to merit them completely changing out the ship; all it needs is a little more consistency and focus, and having it be in the same progression line as the navy scorpion rather than the navy raven seems just fine to me, especially from a survivability standpoint.

Maybe something like a shield equivalent of the navy aug would be in order? While i can see that having a resist bonus works out well enough for active tanking as well as buffer, it's kind of odd we don't see a ship in the shield lineup apart from the tengu with a shield HP bonus. Either way i'm happy with a tank bonus on it.


It needs to be able to kill things first though. HAM's look good on paper but they are pretty bad on cruisers, if they take away the application bonus 90% of people will automatically fit Rapid lights for more fitting resources and better application, but those won't work well either because the ROF bonus is wasted on them. When you take away a low slot you're losing even more firepower because the 3rd BCU will be lost. We're talking 262 sustained dps with fury after reload, and 437 burst dps, that's probably the lowest dps navy cruiser.

How special would the tank be to make up for this? Not very, your tank will be about 55k ehp, that's not enough to make up for the weak firepower. It's also quite slow and has a huge sig radius so you won't be avoiding much dps.

I did a quick Navy Exeq fit and I got 834dps with Ions, 32k EHP tank + at least 10k more from medium ancillary armor repper, and that was with full tackle and a cap booster. The Navy Exeq also had half the sig radius and was faster so it mitigates more dps as well meaning the tank is probably about equal but the dps is several times better. If you want to fit a Navy Vexor for brawling you can do 70k EHP tank, and still do over 600dps +medium and small neut, or you can go all out and get 1000dps. Aug Navy does 100k ehp tank although it's very slow and has poor dps aswell.

If you want a HAM brawler, it could to be something like this:

25% bonus to HAM and Heavy Missile damage
5% bonus to Explosion Radius

4 Launchers
7 Mids
4 Lows

600dps with max skills, Rage HAM's, and 3 BCU's
510dps with faction HAM's.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#497 - 2015-11-01 23:33:56 UTC
Reminder that energy turret cap usage is not a real bonus

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Xeator
soldiers.fi
#498 - 2015-11-02 04:16:58 UTC
So a while back we got a faction ship balance pass, back when things like the Worm were one of the least used faction frigates.

CCP goes ahead and gives them (gurista ships) nice buffs, they become FOTM ships for a while. Now CCP plans on nerfing them? What will be the fate of the ships? Back to being the least used faction *****?

Yet the Svipul remains largely untouched?
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#499 - 2015-11-02 11:54:17 UTC
Has CCP said anything more about the Punisher, or have they doubled down on their numbers? Because there's a nice blaster-fit I want to try as soon as the buffs are there and I would be sad if CCP suddenly decides to give the Punisher a laser-bonus again. P
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#500 - 2015-11-02 12:05:07 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
elitatwo wrote:
Pirate > else.


No, you got that one wrong.

There's a lot more to that. The progression from T1 to T2/pirate/T3 is just a differentiation into various emphasized traits of ships, iE projection, resilence and mitigation for T2, mobility and raw dps for pirate, flexibility or adaptability - even though just in theory - for T3s that effectively makes them somewhat viable at everything at once or better than T2 at the HAC thing in particular.

Pirate ships aren't generally outpferoming T2 vessels of similar size, they're just offering a fundamentally different approach to pvp, T2 moves as a durable unit while pirate tends to move close and fight in pointrange (even if that's 40km cold for a machariel and 60km cold for an orthrus, or 20km railkite vigilants).


Of course there is but I repeated the long explanation so often now and CCP Ytterbium made a deveblog about how this should look with a picture that explains everything very nicely and has been repeatedly posted by Ralph and Shah.

I am simply tired to write it all down again and again. So I made a shorter one that should explain the progression good enough.

Save the pirates!

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever