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Dev blog: Building your Citadel, one block at a time

First post First post
Author
Siliya
House of Tyrell
#301 - 2015-10-28 13:25:17 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:


We will change the volume of the L Citadel to prevent Orcas to carry it around.




will we be able to construct these in Wormholes ... or will we have to haul them in
X Mayce
Out of Focus
Odin's Call
#302 - 2015-10-28 13:26:22 UTC
X Mayce wrote:
o7

Do I get this correct:

nowadays, if I want to get dreadnoughts into position within jumprange to a system to siege that system/in that system (and I dont have any stations for docking available):

I place a pos within 5lys (max dread jump range) or less, get my dreads there to have some sort of "safe"-starting point.


future use of dreadnoughts for sieging something, and you dont have a station for docking yet means:
place at least a large building (citadel) with minimal costs of around 3b (optimistic value)?

is this, how it's gonna work, or did I get something wrong?


does anyone know?
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Reckoning Star Alliance
#303 - 2015-10-28 13:30:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Obil Que
Siliya wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:


We will change the volume of the L Citadel to prevent Orcas to carry it around.



will we be able to construct these in Wormholes ... or will we have to haul them in


1) You can only haul them into C5-C6 space
2) You can't build them at a POS with the current numbers. You need 127 10km3 parts. The Equipment array at a POS is currently 1M m3.
3) There is no manufacturing module for a M at this time so you also cannot build a M to build a L.

While it is an easy fix, with the current information, you cannot have a L citadel in C1-C4 space due to the size issue of the construction parts and the hauling size requirements. Can we get an update on how the construction size issue will be resolved or is it intended?
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
#304 - 2015-10-28 13:36:27 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
Obil Que wrote:
Sir SmashAlot wrote:
Does the citadel need to be manned by a player for the weapons / defenses to work?

Will groups in High Sec (During War), Low, WH, and, Null be forced to have station alts sitting in these things 23/7 in order to blap anyone on grid?


Yes. This has been the case since the first devblog
You don't have to man them 23/7, only during your vulnerable windows (3 hours / wk for a M)

I assume this time is extended if the citadel is under attack? That means the enemy just needs to shoot now and then, extending the time, until some real life issue forces me log off.

This means that, for small or one man corps, a citadel is not a viable option. Note that the present POS is a viable option, because I can take it down during the 24 hour warm-up period of the war.



the citadel only need 15 mins of not shooting at it to rep, this is a timer that counts every time your not shooting it and doesn't reset if you start shooting it.


Mine is going to be set to come just before down time just so that people can't prolong it. if they want to reenforce it they will need to bring the max dps to get it done in time.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#305 - 2015-10-28 13:43:37 UTC
Siliya wrote:
Querns wrote:
Siliya wrote:

I also dont have an issue with caps in c1-4, I feel this will end up being an unintentional consequence of this change, I also feel that if they intend to stay with this model then caps that exist in Lower class wormholes NEED to be Reimbursed to the owning players as a change like this will end up forcing owners to eat a multi-billion cost asset because of a game change that was not even a Blip on their Radar when they were constructed

This is ridiculous. The fact that you spent X amount of money in the past, and that money is becoming moderately more inconvenient after a transition period of several months does not entitle you to reimbursement.



Moderatly is severly understating this
and Transition periods Mean SQUAT for people in these situations
- for years you have been able to have them in a PoS for protection ...
now .. you don't have that option unless you can deploy a large citadel into a c1-4 ..
this is a big reason why construction details are so important

if we have to haul these into wormholes .....
then deploying a Large in a c1-4 is impossible due to the max Jump Mass of anything leading into one of these Holes (300m Max Jump Mass and freighters crack 1m)
by not reimbursing these pilots you are punishing them via Forced game mechanics - they no longer have any security for their capitals and they cant get them out due to max jump mass - cant get them out via repackaging (Archon is 1Million packaged)
they cant reprocess them because the arrays dont support it

if we CAN construct them in wormholes ...
then this is a Moot Point ... and then I would agree that reimbursement would not be needed

but I am hesitant to believe in CCP's judgment on this

how would the big power blocs feel if the XL Citadels could not tether Moms or Titans ... PoS's went away, and you were prevented from moving them puting all of the supers in the game at Risk - that is very similar to what your suggesting players with caps in lower wormholes live with ...

You can still erect Large and even XL citadels in low-class wormholes, it just takes a little bit of legerdemain. Also, trying to say that they're too expensive in the context of living in wormhole space is probably one of the least effective arguments to garner sympathy from in this game. It's almost as unsympathetic as posting while a member of Goonswarm Federation.

Also, your scare vignette is actually what is happening to supercapitals -- the POS we currently hide them in is going away. However, we have several months, potentially even years before the POS actually goes away. We'll display some adaptability; so should you.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#306 - 2015-10-28 13:44:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Querns
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Querns wrote:

On the plus side, with blocks being forged from any type of racial ice, manufacturers of these blocks will drive demand for the "cheapest" tope flavors, increasing costs for all types of ice.

We can also hope they might get crazy and work out how to create variable input BPO's, at which point a whole bunch of other fun becomes possible as a result of that change.
And yes you are right, having them made from each variety of ice actually drives demand better for ice than even quantities of all four.

I don't see any reason why this wouldn't be possible. RAM activities don't need to have unique outputs. The names of the blueprints might have to be slightly different, but I am not sure this is even a thing. (It'd be nice if they did have different names, at any rate.)

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#307 - 2015-10-28 13:50:23 UTC
Actually, we need to discuss L citadel volumes a bit more - CCP Nullarbor made good points about extra annoyance in C2-C4s. So for now, we don't exactly know if they'll fit in Orcas or not. I'll edit my previous answer, sorry for the confusion.
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#308 - 2015-10-28 13:52:49 UTC
Xindi Kraid wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
We will change the volume of the L Citadel to prevent Orcas to carry it around.

Disappointing


Still discussing that option actually. See this post.
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#309 - 2015-10-28 13:53:14 UTC
Obil Que wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

We will change the volume of the L Citadel to prevent Orcas to carry it around.


I suppose I can just wait for the number but if you know what it is going to be, will it fit in a Rorqual?


Best to wait guys. See this post.
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#310 - 2015-10-28 13:54:08 UTC
Siliya wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:


We will change the volume of the L Citadel to prevent Orcas to carry it around.




will we be able to construct these in Wormholes ... or will we have to haul them in


Addendum. See this post.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#311 - 2015-10-28 13:59:26 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Soldarius wrote:
Torgeir Hekard wrote:
[paranoia]
I've noticed that medium citadel does not require factory and lab construction components to build.
[/paranoia]

Does it mean that research/invention/manufacturing would not be available in medium citadels, or it's just an arbitrary component set that in no way reflects the structure capabilities?


This. Does this mean if I want to run reactions I will need to invest in a 7B isk Large citadel? Because currently every reaction in the eve universe is done at a POS. If the minimum investment becomes 7B isk, you can pretty much kiss the entire T2 and 3 markets goodbye. Only the people with direct access to moons and gases will ever run them, because buying gasses and moon goo off the market will be a complete loss for years.


Arbitrary components, do not reflect actual capability. Remember you can fit service modules into the proper slots as long as you have fittings. Some modules may be specialized in the future, but none of the basic service modules should be. Remember though that you'll get more bonuses if you fit rigs and modules into the hull that fits the proper theme (ex: citadel rigs into a citadel hull).


Ok, thx. Glad to get some clarification on that one. I can see paying 600M for a medium citadel that I can use for reactions and is generally permanent (assuming no one destroys it) and only needs fuel when I'm actually using the relevant function. No more setting up and taking down POS structures is a huge time saver. Don't even have to put it at a moon, unless I'm moon mining.

Now I am very curious to see what CCP does for reactions in general.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Siliya
House of Tyrell
#312 - 2015-10-28 14:04:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Siliya
__________________________________________________________________________________________

I digress apparently there was a flurry of activity while writing this post
__________________________________________________________________________________________

1stly I dont live in a low class Wormhole - I live in a c5 ... I am simply pointing out issues with the current dynamics

Querns wrote:

You can still erect Large and even XL citadels in low-class wormholes, it just takes a little bit of legerdemain. Also, trying to say that they're too expensive in the context of living in wormhole space is probably one of the least effective arguments to garner sympathy from in this game. It's almost as unsympathetic as posting while a member of Goonswarm Federation.



this is what Im trying to get to the bottom of because regardless of ledgerdemain if you have to haul them in you have to use a freighter - Just confirmed by CCP - Not an Orca
Freighters Will Not Fit into any holes Connecting to c1-4

c1 from High, Low, Null Max Mass per Jump 20Gg
c2 from High, Low, Null Max Mass per Jump 300Gg
c3 from High, Low, Null Max Mass per Jump 300Gg
c4 from High, Low, Null Max Mass per Jump 300Gg
High, Low, Null from c1 Max Mass per Jump 20Gg
High, Low, Null from c2 Max Mass per Jump 300Gg
High, Low, Null from c3 Max Mass per Jump 300Gg

so pray tell how do you fit a freighter through any of these holes - answer ... you cannot - no matter how much adaption you use ...Game mechanics will not allow it

this is the biggest reason why I am trying to push for an answer
because as has been stated by myself and Obil Que --- Unless you can construct them in a wormhole ---you cannot ... no matter how much you want to ... deploy a Large or an Extra Large in a c1-4

so as for my example ... you will be able to eventually move all your supers to the XL when goons build it
pilots in c1-4 with capitals will not have that luxury
Valterra Craven
#313 - 2015-10-28 14:11:50 UTC
Ytterbium, much like the industry changes a while back I have big concerns with how you guys are handling the new rigs. I really think you guys need to go back to the drawing board on that one.

You have a golden opportunity here to create a new market instead of trashing an old one.

What you should be doing is creating new rig materials that can only be found in null sec. This gives null sec an extra income base without actually giving them an isk printing machine. They've been hollering for more opportunities to level the playing field between hi-sec and this is the one chance you have to make them happy without creating an isk faucet. Please for the love of common sense do not tie t2 salvage to structure rigs in any way.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#314 - 2015-10-28 14:21:06 UTC
probag Bear wrote:
Soldarius wrote:
The quantities of T2 salvage required for an XL rig are absolutely batshit insane. There is not enough available market supply across the entire eve universe to build more than a couple of any of these. The price of T2 salvage will go so high no one will ever be able to afford T2 rigs for anything ever again.


For everything except Enhanced Ward Consoles (and arguably Intact Shield Emitters), there is more than enough available market supply across the entire eve universe to build thousands of these.


http://www.eve-markets.net/detail?typeid=25616#supply

nope. 450k required for XL-sized rig. 772k available on market. Can build exactly 1. In the entire universe.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#315 - 2015-10-28 15:18:13 UTC
EvilweaselSA wrote:
Azahar Ortenegro wrote:
And what about replacing Small and Medium POSes in-space storage and fitting abilities?

mobile depot


I believe CCP already stated that all citadels will have these capabilities. Otherwise, yes, Mobile Depot.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Azmodai Draconis
DragonStorm TechnoMagi
#316 - 2015-10-28 15:26:44 UTC
hmm so with the new structure fuel will current fuel blocls be obsolete

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#317 - 2015-10-28 15:30:49 UTC
Azmodai Draconis wrote:
hmm so with the new structure fuel will current fuel blocls be obsolete


Eventually. In the short term, this won't happen until new structures can completely replace the capabilities of POS and outposts.

---

Incidentally, is there a good name for describing all of the post-POS/outpost structures? The community has been using the phrase "citadel" to refer to all of these structures, but it's my understanding that citadels are specifically the structures being described in the OP's devblog post. A different bit of terminology to describe all of them, separate from POS, outposts, and stations would be nice.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Nillus K'varr
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#318 - 2015-10-28 15:33:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Nillus K'varr
Querns wrote:
Unfortunately, CCP is at odds with your beliefs. They want nullsec to have less dependency on Jita, not more. Your vignette about regional resources causing conflict doesn't hold up in a world where that very resource is available in highsec. Additionally, there's absolutely no way that any nullsec entity is going to do something as daft as take space for access to new kinds of ice, especially after Phoebe's reduction in power projection and Aegis sov's harsh response times to sovereignty contests. Players will shrug, purchase the things from Jita, and jump them directly off of the undock. CCP wants this to happen less.

On the plus side, with blocks being forged from any type of racial ice, manufacturers of these blocks will drive demand for the "cheapest" tope flavors, increasing costs for all types of ice.


Nullsec alliances are going to depend on high sec trade hubs whether they have autonomy on fuel blocks or not . The logistics issues will be there both to import and export goods from and to high sec. And personally I see this as something beneficial for EVE since no single region in New Eden should be self-sufficient. Giving self-sufficiency to every nullsec region does nothing to combat the current stagnation, in fact it makes it worse.

On the other hand, let's not forget that over 75% of the playerbase lives in highsec. Having a unique blueprint for the fuel block would cause white glaze price to plummet due to oversaturation, since all 4 isotopes have exactly the same demand, forcing miners to look for greener pastures in other empires. Jita would retain some market power initially but ice miners would tend to scatter among all 4 empires until supply and demand of all racial isotopes is equalized accros the board. EVE at some extent works like a food chain. With a good miner population, as the first link, you will start dragging more players to that region starting with haulers moving stuff to the closest tradehub and between them, then suicide gankers that prey both on miners and haulers, then industrialists that service all 3 of them. Now the nearest tradehub is much lively than before the change and slowly starts competing with an overcrowded Jita, offering competitive prices, and nullsec alliances start to think twice about either selling and stocking in their closest thub or going all the way to Jita. With a healthy trade hub, other players like mission runners and explorers will see more reasons to move away from Caldari space and dump their loot in other trade hubs.
Granted, I don't see CCP taking an extreme measure like isolating all 4 empires between themselves but that would revitalize lowsec piracy, another added bonus.

If we get to build fuel blocks with a single racial istope you will have white glaze as the superpopular ice with better supply and demand but less logistic problems and 3 sub-par ices that require longer (and more expensive) hauling trips to Jita and will never have a competitive price. The overpopulation in Caldari space would make white glaze so dirt cheap and accesible that almost no one would bother mining other ices until the maximum output of Caldari belts is reached (7 spawns per belt per day).

Edit: I totally goofed the estimation of maximum out put. It's 5 spawns per belt per day, not 7. My apologies.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#319 - 2015-10-28 15:43:58 UTC
Nillus K'varr wrote:
Querns wrote:
Unfortunately, CCP is at odds with your beliefs. They want nullsec to have less dependency on Jita, not more. Your vignette about regional resources causing conflict doesn't hold up in a world where that very resource is available in highsec. Additionally, there's absolutely no way that any nullsec entity is going to do something as daft as take space for access to new kinds of ice, especially after Phoebe's reduction in power projection and Aegis sov's harsh response times to sovereignty contests. Players will shrug, purchase the things from Jita, and jump them directly off of the undock. CCP wants this to happen less.

On the plus side, with blocks being forged from any type of racial ice, manufacturers of these blocks will drive demand for the "cheapest" tope flavors, increasing costs for all types of ice.


Nullsec alliances are going to depend on high sec trade hubs whether they have autonomy on fuel blocks or not . The logistics issues will be there both to import and export goods from and to high sec. And personally I see this as something beneficial for EVE since no single region in New Eden should be self-sufficient. Giving self-sufficiency to every nullsec region does nothing to combat the current stagnation, in fact it makes it worse.

On the other hand, let's not forget that over 75% of the playerbase lives in highsec. Having a unique blueprint for the fuel block would cause white glaze price to plummet due to oversaturation, since all 4 isotopes have exactly the same demand, forcing miners to look for greener pastures in other empires. Jita would retain some market power initially but ice miners would tend to scatter among all 4 empires until supply and demand of all racial isotopes is equalized accros the board. EVE at some extent works like a food chain. With a good miner population, as the first link, you will start dragging more players to that region starting with haulers moving stuff to the closest tradehub and between them, then suicide gankers that prey both on miners and haulers, then industrialists that service all 3 of them. Now the nearest tradehub is much lively than before the change and slowly starts competing with an overcrowded Jita, offering competitive prices, and nullsec alliances start to think twice about either selling and stocking in their closest thub or going all the way to Jita. With a healthy trade hub, other players like mission runners and explorers will see more reasons to move away from Caldari space and dump their loot in other trade hubs.
Granted, I don't see CCP taking an extreme measure like isolating all 4 empires between themselves but that would revitalize lowsec piracy, another added bonus.

If we get to build fuel blocks with a single racial istope you will have white glaze as the superpopular ice with better supply and demand but less logistic problems and 3 sub-par ices that require longer (and more expensive) hauling trips to Jita and will never have a competitive price. The overpopulation in Caldari space would make white glaze so dirt cheap and accesible that almost no on would bother mining other ices until the maximum output of Caldari belts is reached (7 spawns per belt per day).

The game doesn't shop in Jita because of nitrogen isotopes. There's way more in play than that. If that were actually the case, we'd all be shopping in Dodixie, because gallente towers far outnumber caldari towers, especially after Crius eliminated the need for having huge farms of caldari towers in highsec to gain production/research slots. (Moon mineral reactions, in general, need gallente towers, not caldari.)

Also, how does making nullsec more self-sufficient make stagnancy worse? If things are actually feasible and profitable to make solely in nullsec, it increases the traffic in nullsec in the form of harvesters and haulers. This increases prey for PVPers. This increases the need for home defense types, which makes the total amount of things to do in nullsec even higher. Making nullsec a vibrant alternative to producing in highsec also drives demand for actually existing in nullsec, which is a problem right now.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Gunrunner1775
Empire Hooligans
#320 - 2015-10-28 15:45:01 UTC
With reguard to the weapons for the citadels....

AOE weapons were mentioned...

This will cause issues in high sec, can i assume they will be unuseable in high sec?? (ie 3rd party neutrals getting caught up in the area of effect, and concord follow on reaction)