These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Countering Risk Aversion

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#401 - 2015-10-18 12:11:42 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Kitty Bear wrote:
As for how do you stop people from being risk-averse ....

How do you stop people from being people.
True that.

Also, braver pilots repeatedly kicking the pussies' arses even with unfavourable odds just widens the gap: the braver become better and bolder pilots, the pussies worse and more scared. Pirate


Not my words, but...

Quote:
(...)

What doesn't produce satisfying deaths is suicide ganking in high sec. Suicide ganking, especially of miners, is in many ways like sex between two sixteen year-old virgins. Due to CONCORD response times, a successful ganked is usually over in 15 seconds. The ganker, playing the role of the inexperienced male, is proud of himself because he scored. Then again, the actual gank was preceded by a lot of foreplay in the form of stalking the victim, preparing the warp-in, etc.

The gankee, on the other hand, may not even have known the gank was about to occur until the ganker appeared. By the time the fight or flight instinct takes over and the adrenaline starts pumping, the miner not only has lost his ship, but may find himself waking up in a a station in his medical clone. Much like the young lady expecting a magical experience, the miner is left emotionally frustrated. But unlike the disappointed young lady, the miner by now is filled with adrenaline and often expresses his frustration at the ganker, ironically giving the ganker further pleasure.

(...)


...this is SO true... Blink

(I am also tempted to take that analogy to both extremes: the one where it's a unconsensual event aka r*** and the one where gankers go limp and then it's the lady who haves a laugh after safely docking her more-or-less battered flying... huh).



What doesn't produce satisfying deaths is suicide ganking in high sec. Suicide ganking, especially of miners, is in many ways like sex between two sixteen year-old virgins. The gankee, on the other hand, may not even have known the gank was about to occur until the ganker appeared.



The above act is obviously one person forcing another to do something they chose not to do.

Interesting choice of words...stalking the victim..the adrenaline rush of the one committing the act..

For your analogy of the 16 year olds, the unsuspecting 16 yr old female is experiencing ****.

May want to rethink this line of thought.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#402 - 2015-10-18 13:43:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Indahmawar Fazmarai
Syn Shi wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Kitty Bear wrote:
As for how do you stop people from being risk-averse ....

How do you stop people from being people.
True that.

Also, braver pilots repeatedly kicking the pussies' arses even with unfavourable odds just widens the gap: the braver become better and bolder pilots, the pussies worse and more scared. Pirate


Not my words, but...

Quote:
(...)

What doesn't produce satisfying deaths is suicide ganking in high sec. Suicide ganking, especially of miners, is in many ways like sex between two sixteen year-old virgins. Due to CONCORD response times, a successful ganked is usually over in 15 seconds. The ganker, playing the role of the inexperienced male, is proud of himself because he scored. Then again, the actual gank was preceded by a lot of foreplay in the form of stalking the victim, preparing the warp-in, etc.

The gankee, on the other hand, may not even have known the gank was about to occur until the ganker appeared. By the time the fight or flight instinct takes over and the adrenaline starts pumping, the miner not only has lost his ship, but may find himself waking up in a a station in his medical clone. Much like the young lady expecting a magical experience, the miner is left emotionally frustrated. But unlike the disappointed young lady, the miner by now is filled with adrenaline and often expresses his frustration at the ganker, ironically giving the ganker further pleasure.

(...)


...this is SO true... Blink

(I am also tempted to take that analogy to both extremes: the one where it's a unconsensual event aka r*** and the one where gankers go limp and then it's the lady who haves a laugh after safely docking her more-or-less battered flying... huh).



What doesn't produce satisfying deaths is suicide ganking in high sec. Suicide ganking, especially of miners, is in many ways like sex between two sixteen year-old virgins. The gankee, on the other hand, may not even have known the gank was about to occur until the ganker appeared.



The above act is obviously one person forcing another to do something they chose not to do.

Interesting choice of words...stalking the victim..the adrenaline rush of the one committing the act..

For your analogy of the 16 year olds, the unsuspecting 16 yr old female is experiencing ****.

May want to rethink this line of thought.


As I said, those are not my words, and anyway I already stated that, taking that analogy to the literal end, unconsensual sex is not sex. But then it's just an analogy...
ArmyOfMe
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#403 - 2015-10-18 17:01:24 UTC
Sorry, but a member of PL complaining about risk adverse players is pretty priceless. PL are one of the reasons that so many are risk adverse these days. Low sec entitys were scared shitless of being hotdropped by PL supers whenever they wanted to field caps.
Sure its fair game to do so, and in those regards i dont even mind it, but please understand what has caused lots of ppl to become more risk adverse. Players all over eve have become so used to being titan bridged upon during fights that a lot of fc's have most of their contact list filled with known titan pilots from the area, and either simply refuse to take a fight due to some titan pilot being online cause they expect to be dropped on if they try to fight.

ps: PL isnt the main reason for this, but they sure as heck didnt help either Blink

GM Guard > I must ask you not to use the petition option like this again but i personally would finish the chicken sandwich first so it won´t go to waste. The spaghetti will keep and you can use it the next time you get hungry. Best regards.
Crimson Nirnroots
Compliant Munitions
#404 - 2015-10-18 17:14:17 UTC
Creepy analogy.

So we're clear, PvP is consensual as soon as that 'Undock' button is clicked. Frolicking through asteroid belts thinking "it will never happen to me" does not supercede this fact. Wrap that shiz up in a Tank, it's that easy.

Antimatter, now with more Nirnroots.
Otso Bakarti
Doomheim
#405 - 2015-10-18 21:14:23 UTC
Crimson Nirnroots wrote:
Creepy analogy.

So we're clear, PvP is consensual as soon as that 'Undock' button is clicked. Frolicking through asteroid belts thinking "it will never happen to me" does not supercede this fact. Wrap that shiz up in a Tank, it's that easy.
No, we're not clear on that. What we are clear on is, the PvP-ers are a clear minority in this game, and calling other players names, such as "risk averse" isn't going to change that one iota. (Google "iota". You'll be amazed.)

As a post on the first page of this thread said, "Some people think not having a death wish is risk averse."

There just isn't anything that can be said!
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#406 - 2015-10-18 22:34:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Divine Entervention
The only way to counter risk aversion would be to mandate ass beatings for all eve subscribers.

That way they would know the different between real and imagined loss.

Maybe after some physical interaction they'd be able to distinguish between a broken jaw and the loss of pixels and wouldn't boo hoo their lives away whenever they encounter what their inferior intellects classifies as a "loss".
Vol Arm'OOO
Central Co-Prosperity Union
#407 - 2015-10-18 23:19:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Vol Arm'OOO
Risk aversion is inherent in the game and wont go away no matter what is done, simply because nobody wants to be free kills for somebody else in any sort of competitive system. Just as an example in eq2 soe nerfed their fame system to encourage folk to fight. Yet even after the nerfing, there was no serious marked increase in fights for the simple reason that even if the fight is consequenceless, people still do not want to constantly be somebody else's ***** over and over again. In an open world game like eve where the matches are inherently unbalanced and it is fairly obvious how a match will turn just by looking at the two sides at the start of the match the only thing that will seriously help risk aversion is allowing for more asymmetrical combat - giving smaller groups the tools they need to beat larger foes. The only problem with this is that ccp continually nerfs anything that gives a numerically smaller group an opportunity to fight a larger grp, e.g. ecm, boosts, etc. . .

I don't play, I just fourm warrior.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#408 - 2015-10-19 05:03:35 UTC
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:
Risk aversion is inherent in the game and wont go away no matter what is done, simply because nobody wants to be free kills for somebody else in any sort of competitive system. Just as an example in eq2 soe nerfed their fame system to encourage folk to fight. Yet even after the nerfing, there was no serious marked increase in fights for the simple reason that even if the fight is consequenceless, people still do not want to constantly be somebody else's ***** over and over again. In an open world game like eve where the matches are inherently unbalanced and it is fairly obvious how a match will turn just by looking at the two sides at the start of the match the only thing that will seriously help risk aversion is allowing for more asymmetrical combat - giving smaller groups the tools they need to beat larger foes. The only problem with this is that ccp continually nerfs anything that gives a numerically smaller group an opportunity to fight a larger grp, e.g. ecm, boosts, etc. . .


Anything that can be used as a force multiplier by a small group can be used even more effectively by a larger one. Obviously we're talking about OGB supported kiting gangs here, flying against unlinked blobs in mostly slower ships. The deciding factor in that engagement is that your opponent is incompetent and doesn't bring 2 boosters and 6 falcons to your 1 booster and 1 falcon.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#409 - 2015-10-19 05:08:30 UTC
ArmyOfMe wrote:
Sorry, but a member of PL complaining about risk adverse players is pretty priceless. PL are one of the reasons that so many are risk adverse these days. Low sec entitys were scared shitless of being hotdropped by PL supers whenever they wanted to field caps.
Sure its fair game to do so, and in those regards i dont even mind it, but please understand what has caused lots of ppl to become more risk adverse. Players all over eve have become so used to being titan bridged upon during fights that a lot of fc's have most of their contact list filled with known titan pilots from the area, and either simply refuse to take a fight due to some titan pilot being online cause they expect to be dropped on if they try to fight.

ps: PL isnt the main reason for this, but they sure as heck didnt help either Blink


Yea I saw PL station camping brave in Kehjari a few days back with 2 Machariels, 2 resebo lokis and 2 basilisks, assuredly with triage and super alts on standby (because PL). You don't get to complain about lack of content when all you do is try to farm other people for content whilst sitting smugly behind the walls of an escalation capability no one else can match, except for the other nullsec power blocs who share your aversion for risking major assets.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#410 - 2015-10-19 05:41:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
ArmyOfMe wrote:
Sorry, but a member of PL complaining about risk adverse players is pretty priceless. PL are one of the reasons that so many are risk adverse these days. Low sec entitys were scared shitless of being hotdropped by PL supers whenever they wanted to field caps.
Sure its fair game to do so, and in those regards i dont even mind it, but please understand what has caused lots of ppl to become more risk adverse. Players all over eve have become so used to being titan bridged upon during fights that a lot of fc's have most of their contact list filled with known titan pilots from the area, and either simply refuse to take a fight due to some titan pilot being online cause they expect to be dropped on if they try to fight.

ps: PL isnt the main reason for this, but they sure as heck didnt help either Blink


Yea I saw PL station camping brave in Kehjari a few days back with 2 Machariels, 2 resebo lokis and 2 basilisks, assuredly with triage and super alts on standby (because PL). You don't get to complain about lack of content when all you do is try to farm other people for content whilst sitting smugly behind the walls of an escalation capability no one else can match, except for the other nullsec power blocs who share your aversion for risking major assets.

Not to defend Feyd as he can speak for himself.

This thread is 6 months old. It was necro' by CAM begging for skillbooks. The thread hadn't been posted in for the last 2 months.

When Feyd made the thread, he wasn't in PL. He was in BL having only recently joined them at that point and moved out of highsec.

Not difficult facts to check before someone complains about PL (or anyone else) whining.
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
SL33PERS
#411 - 2015-10-19 10:07:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Ria Nieyli
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
ArmyOfMe wrote:
Sorry, but a member of PL complaining about risk adverse players is pretty priceless. PL are one of the reasons that so many are risk adverse these days. Low sec entitys were scared shitless of being hotdropped by PL supers whenever they wanted to field caps.
Sure its fair game to do so, and in those regards i dont even mind it, but please understand what has caused lots of ppl to become more risk adverse. Players all over eve have become so used to being titan bridged upon during fights that a lot of fc's have most of their contact list filled with known titan pilots from the area, and either simply refuse to take a fight due to some titan pilot being online cause they expect to be dropped on if they try to fight.

ps: PL isnt the main reason for this, but they sure as heck didnt help either Blink


Yea I saw PL station camping brave in Kehjari a few days back with 2 Machariels, 2 resebo lokis and 2 basilisks, assuredly with triage and super alts on standby (because PL). You don't get to complain about lack of content when all you do is try to farm other people for content whilst sitting smugly behind the walls of an escalation capability no one else can match, except for the other nullsec power blocs who share your aversion for risking major assets.

Not to defend Feyd as he can speak for himself.

This thread is 6 months old. It was necro' by CAM begging for skillbooks. The thread hadn't been posted in for the last 2 months.

When Feyd made the thread, he wasn't in PL. He was in BL having only recently joined them at that point and moved out of highsec.

Not difficult facts to check before someone complains about PL (or anyone else) whining.


What did BL use to do, I forgot.

Risk aversion is not a thing, people not taking fights they can't win is. As the general age of the population increases, so does their experience. As a result, you get less kills via gimmicks. Good thing that we have conflict drivers to instigate fights over space and the likes, oh wait...
Mister Holder
Faceless Men
#412 - 2015-10-19 10:17:18 UTC
The biggest issue I see for a lot of people getting into PvP is that they want to start out Solo. This is pretty much a no go in Eve as half of the people doing PvP end up gate camping choke points for easy kills.


I think it has been proposed before, but it would be absolutely awesome if CCP were to implement some sort of module that allowed the scanning of a jump gate to see how many entities are sitting on the other side.
La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#413 - 2015-10-19 18:28:18 UTC  |  Edited by: La Rynx
People who want to fight "risk averse behavior" are just like Don Quixote.
Windmill are no knights and "risk averse behaviour" no Problem in EvE.
This discussion is dancing around wrong idols.

Turn the argument a little and what do you see?
Those ppl want fast pewpew and when the don't get it, they get angry.
EvE doesn't look like fast pewpew to me.
It takes a long time to join fleets and start a roam.
Hunting solo takes time too.

Why should some untrained PvE guys send out their chars that are trained for pve - ravens?
The outcome is obvious, so the fight is not only boring but also expensive.
Why should one play victim, for one who is unable to get some fight otherwise?

For some ppl avoiding fights is pvp enough.

Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#414 - 2015-10-19 18:39:27 UTC
If the idea mentioned a few posts back that as soon as someone clicks "UNDOCK" that they are consenting to PVP it is very clear what the problem is.

People who don't want to PVP won't undock
PVP'rs don't get the fights
Risk Adverse PVE guy stays docked until he decides this game isn't for him, unsubs.
PVP'r still doesn't get the fights.

PVP'r eventually either quits, blobs with other consenting pvp players or turns to PVE.

Game numbers reflect this.

We see this all the time in High-Sec war decs. When entire corps and alliances stay undocked or logged off, that is when frustration builds from the aggressor.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#415 - 2015-10-19 19:00:59 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
The only way to counter risk aversion would be to mandate ass beatings for all eve subscribers.

That way they would know the different between real and imagined loss.

Maybe after some physical interaction they'd be able to distinguish between a broken jaw and the loss of pixels and wouldn't boo hoo their lives away whenever they encounter what their inferior intellects classifies as a "loss".


Start by educating yourself and cut both your legs just to be sure you know what it means to lose something physically. Then you can start telling other what a real loss is.
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#416 - 2015-10-19 20:23:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Scipio Artelius wrote:

Not to defend Feyd as he can speak for himself.

This thread is 6 months old. It was necro' by CAM begging for skillbooks. The thread hadn't been posted in for the last 2 months.

When Feyd made the thread, he wasn't in PL. He was in BL having only recently joined them at that point and moved out of highsec.

Not difficult facts to check before someone complains about PL (or anyone else) whining.

Notwithstanding that its a farcical statement made by some that there are always caps or triage behind a roaming gang just because PL (which in todays jump-range & jump fatigue world just demonstrates those comments are more about past PL-induced butthurts made by ree ree's than based on any knowledge of today's meta...)..

...the focus of the original article actually wasn't really from a vet viewpoint or whining, but more so about how do we inspire more novice and mid level players (and associated groups) to go out and shoot things from a mechanics perspective, without staying docked when a fights victory was in question and victory not assured. How do we inspire more players stuck on the hisec PVE hamster wheel to give PVP a serious attempt. When you're new, or in a newer corp or alliance, individual ship losses can hurt -- and that's the double-edged sword of our ship pain-mail obsession the article was raising, that failure-to-reach-critical-mass cost of said obsession.

I don't speak for PL, at all, but I look at what Pandemic Horde is achieving and give a big thumbs up. Now, just imagine if we can combine the great efforts of social groups like that with mechanics changes (i.e. better insurance) to reach all players not in groups like that, and we may have a winning combination towards finally achieving constant thunderdoming outside of empire space.

tldr;
So long as we don't re-evaluate our obsession with high-pain inducing ship losses, and don't consider shifting loss pain to perhaps structures or other things instead, risk aversion associated with ship losses will remain, and a thunderdome never achieved. Ships are the very fuel we burn for content, and as such if we keep the pain factor tied to those, we reduce said conflict.

IMHO

F

Would you like to know more?
MeestaPenni
Mercantile and Stuff
#417 - 2015-10-19 20:59:53 UTC
Mister Holder wrote:
The biggest issue I see for a lot of people getting into PvP is that they want to start out Solo. This is pretty much a no go in Eve as half of the people doing PvP end up gate camping choke points for easy kills.


I think it has been proposed before, but it would be absolutely awesome if CCP were to implement some sort of module that allowed the scanning of a jump gate to see how many entities are sitting on the other side.


It would be sweet if you could cram a smart bomb through the gate.

I am not Prencleeve Grothsmore.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#418 - 2015-10-19 21:07:19 UTC
MeestaPenni wrote:
Mister Holder wrote:
The biggest issue I see for a lot of people getting into PvP is that they want to start out Solo. This is pretty much a no go in Eve as half of the people doing PvP end up gate camping choke points for easy kills.


I think it has been proposed before, but it would be absolutely awesome if CCP were to implement some sort of module that allowed the scanning of a jump gate to see how many entities are sitting on the other side.


It would be sweet if you could cram a smart bomb through the gate.



Awesome idea... Bombs from a special bomber ship that jump the gate and blow up in a 15km sphere at a random jump point...

Twisted It is so evil I love it

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#419 - 2015-10-19 22:50:12 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:

Not to defend Feyd as he can speak for himself.

This thread is 6 months old. It was necro' by CAM begging for skillbooks. The thread hadn't been posted in for the last 2 months.

When Feyd made the thread, he wasn't in PL. He was in BL having only recently joined them at that point and moved out of highsec.

Not difficult facts to check before someone complains about PL (or anyone else) whining.

Notwithstanding that its a farcical statement made by some that there are always caps or triage behind a roaming gang just because PL (which in todays jump-range & jump fatigue world just demonstrates those comments are more about past PL-induced butthurts made by ree ree's than based on any knowledge of today's meta...)..

...the focus of the original article actually wasn't really from a vet viewpoint or whining, but more so about how do we inspire more novice and mid level players (and associated groups) to go out and shoot things from a mechanics perspective, without staying docked when a fights victory was in question and victory not assured. How do we inspire more players stuck on the hisec PVE hamster wheel to give PVP a serious attempt. When you're new, or in a newer corp or alliance, individual ship losses can hurt -- and that's the double-edged sword of our ship pain-mail obsession the article was raising, that failure-to-reach-critical-mass cost of said obsession.

I don't speak for PL, at all, but I look at what Pandemic Horde is achieving and give a big thumbs up. Now, just imagine if we can combine the great efforts of social groups like that with mechanics changes (i.e. better insurance) to reach all players not in groups like that, and we may have a winning combination towards finally achieving constant thunderdoming outside of empire space.

tldr;
So long as we don't re-evaluate our obsession with high-pain inducing ship losses, and don't consider shifting loss pain to perhaps structures or other things instead, risk aversion associated with ship losses will remain, and a thunderdome never achieved. Ships are the very fuel we burn for content, and as such if we keep the pain factor tied to those, we reduce said conflict.

IMHO

F


I'm aware of the jump changes. I'm also aware that PL has supers in range of most of Black Rise. I frankly don't believe that you would station 3-4 billion ISK worth of ships outside BRAVE's present home station without backup.

It's just an example of how the bittervet power blocs treat people who are actually willing to undock and provide content. Pretty soon they won't do it anymore.
Otso Bakarti
Doomheim
#420 - 2015-10-19 23:24:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Otso Bakarti
Please. Allow me to swing this sledge hammer just one more time, then I'll assume I'm speaking to the dense.

PEOPLE DON'T PVP BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT TO


You can rationalize, surmise, speculate, calculate all you want, the simple fact is PVP gamers are a minority! There are many reasons for THIS, most of which would likely zoom over your heads, judging by the bandwidth wasted here chasing down circular logic and flat-out untruth. However, I will repeat this one last time:

PEOPLE DON'T PVP BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT TO


It's not because you haven't tilted the board enough to make the PvE-ers roll down into the PvP gutter. There isn't a magic combination of operant conditioning steps that have been overlooked. It's just a simple fact you can't get your heads around.

"Why?" You might ask. "Why don't others find fun what I find fun?" Well, you really have to consider, one main reason (judging how little the creators of this baby threadnaught can digest facts) your inability to listen to others and accept facts about them could be why most EVE players don't want to play what YOU play...
part of that would be having to play with YOU.

Okay. Now. I'm going to act like an adult, and you may continue pursuing your fantasy world here to give yourselves a solid feeling you're doing something smart, clever, special and of course important.

Cool


PS A little PS here. Calling PvE-ers names like "risk averse", no matter how clever the inventor of the term might think it is, and no matter how enthusiastically the minority of PvP-ers ran to grasp it as their battle cry, won't get people to do what you want them to do. People won't do what they don't want to do unless they're forced to. Should they be forced to one of two things will happen, they'll leave, and if they can't leave, they'll begin to foment armed revolution. The target? You have to ask?

There just isn't anything that can be said!