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Would it be possible for CCP to make Eve Online free to play?

First post
Author
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#81 - 2015-09-06 16:45:55 UTC
Four pages in such short time so all that can be said has been said.

If your friends say the sub is a scam, boy are they an entitled bunch. Servers need to be maintained and eevs need their pay.

People who complain about subs, I do not get it. No sevice is free. Free to play mechanics means incentive to spend money for something that else you cannot get. People who play 100% free a free to play are riding on another person's dime.

Cause of this and eve being effort first, a traditional free to play does not work. Plex essentially makes it like free to play. Some pay for isk, sub negates a monthy isk penalty.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#82 - 2015-09-06 16:47:03 UTC
If someone has a problem with sub games then that pretty much means that IF the game would be f2p they'd have a problem with paying for anything, meaning they'd be freeloaders. Explain to us why CCP should change the game and us, the current players accept these changes, so that some freeloaders can play our game?
Cyber SGB
Mecha Enterprises Fleet
Federation Uprising
#83 - 2015-09-06 16:58:01 UTC
Verstal wrote:
Bumblefck wrote:
Your friends don't sound particularly sophisticated, even if they are "great gamers". I'd suggest getting new ones.



  1. All invest spare limited time into a game over other choices of entertainment.
  2. All once invested spend money on that game to improve the experience but none want to pay to win model, they buy vanity items.

  3. All love Star Wars and Star Trek and have interest in experiencing what they see in the CCP movies.
  4. All once they realize the cost in time get discouraged at the steepness of the mountain.
  5. All start the climb.
  6. After the rookie missions most are expecting a taste of what they have seen in the CCP movie, do not get this taste but know they are just starting out.

  7. Ask what direction they need to take to experience what is in the movie.
  8. Most are excited download a program like Eve Mon to plan out a character career and training schedule see the time to train.
  9. All multiple the sub costs by the time they need to train a particular path and get upset at the thought of this and instead of being happy with CCP they take a step back snap out of the excitement to think clearly about the climb and they doubt CCP.






Sounds like they need to get over themselves. Most of what you listed means jack and **** as it relates to EvE. This isn't Star Trek and Star Wars. EvE is a long time investment. They need to get over their instant gratification bullshit. They also seem to have no idea about the game. Perhaps you aren't teaching them correctly. They can jump right in day one.

It's all about attitude. I bet most of us have limited time, but you don't see us throwing a tantrum.

Also. They don't want to pay, they don't need to play.

I write Kindle books. Visit my author page. http://amazon.com/author/sgbynum

Verstal
Incredibuilders United
#84 - 2015-09-06 17:06:20 UTC
Tiberius Heth wrote:
If someone has a problem with sub games then that pretty much means that IF the game would be f2p they'd have a problem with paying for anything, meaning they'd be freeloaders. Explain to us why CCP should change the game and us, the current players accept these changes, so that some freeloaders can play our game?


They aren't free loaders they spend on content they can keep like the ship skins this is how I think they think about it.


  • Desire to play and pay for the experience they see in the movie or movies.
  • Expectation that if they give it a few weeks they will being getting that experience in small tastes.
  • If they invest 6 months of time and or money they will get the experience they see in the movies.
  • If they continue up to a year of time they will get the full experience of Eve flying around in Titans and Super Caps when ever they want and using big guns to do bad things.

  • All want to use dexterity or skills found in MOBAs or FPS's to win fights, skill shots, using cover, fog of war, etc.
  • Once they experience the Rookie missions or what you would call the basic mechanics of Eve they ask well this isnt close to the movies, how do I go in that direction.

  • Start doing the simple math until they hit the personal beyond responsible time limitations and pause.
  • All walk away after a few days instead of what they wanted to do was run forward giving effort to learn.
  • Every time they try to fit module and find out they have to wait even an hour to do it sours them.
  • They were ready to pay for subs and just say they will give it another try after a few weeks of training since "I cant even put a launcher or turret on a ship or fly the ship I see in the movie."



Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#85 - 2015-09-06 17:13:59 UTC
Verstal wrote:
Tiberius Heth wrote:
If someone has a problem with sub games then that pretty much means that IF the game would be f2p they'd have a problem with paying for anything, meaning they'd be freeloaders. Explain to us why CCP should change the game and us, the current players accept these changes, so that some freeloaders can play our game?


They aren't free loaders they spend on content they can keep like the ship skins this is how I think they think about it.


  • Desire to play and pay for the experience they see in the movie or movies.
  • Expectation that if they give it a few weeks they will being getting that experience in small tastes.
  • If they invest 6 months of time and or money they will get the experience they see in the movies.
  • If they continue up to a year of time they will get the full experience of Eve flying around in Titans and Super Caps when ever they want and using big guns to do bad things.

  • All want to use dexterity or skills found in MOBAs or FPS's to win fights, skill shots, using cover, fog of war, etc.
  • Once they experience the Rookie missions or what you would call the basic mechanics of Eve they ask well this isnt close to the movies, how do I go in that direction.

  • Start doing the simple math until they hit the personal beyond responsible time limitations and pause.
  • All walk away after a few days instead of what they wanted to do was run forward giving effort to learn.
  • Every time they try to fit module and find out they have to wait even an hour to do it sours them.
  • They were ready to pay for subs and just say they will give it another try after a few weeks of training since "I cant even put a launcher or turret on a ship or fly the ship I see in the movie."



Why are you not simply be a good friend and give them the answers to their questions? You should have enough input now to do so, right?

I'm my own NPC alt.

Verstal
Incredibuilders United
#86 - 2015-09-06 17:19:37 UTC
Cyber SGB wrote:
Verstal wrote:
Bumblefck wrote:
Your friends don't sound particularly sophisticated, even if they are "great gamers". I'd suggest getting new ones.



  1. All invest spare limited time into a game over other choices of entertainment.
  2. All once invested spend money on that game to improve the experience but none want to pay to win model, they buy vanity items.

  3. All love Star Wars and Star Trek and have interest in experiencing what they see in the CCP movies.
  4. All once they realize the cost in time get discouraged at the steepness of the mountain.
  5. All start the climb.
  6. After the rookie missions most are expecting a taste of what they have seen in the CCP movie, do not get this taste but know they are just starting out.

  7. Ask what direction they need to take to experience what is in the movie.
  8. Most are excited download a program like Eve Mon to plan out a character career and training schedule see the time to train.
  9. All multiple the sub costs by the time they need to train a particular path and get upset at the thought of this and instead of being happy with CCP they take a step back snap out of the excitement to think clearly about the climb and they doubt CCP.






Sounds like they need to get over themselves. Most of what you listed means jack and **** as it relates to EvE. This isn't Star Trek and Star Wars. EvE is a long time investment. They need to get over their instant gratification bullshit. They also seem to have no idea about the game. Perhaps you aren't teaching them correctly. They can jump right in day one.

It's all about attitude. I bet most of us have limited time, but you don't see us throwing a tantrum.

Also. They don't want to pay, they don't need to play.


I didnt create this expectation in them the CCP movie did, they consider it false advertising after starting the commitment. They are spoiled by the fact so much has changed in the game industry since Eve was invented. Eve at its core has remained the same and I enjoy it.

I think you are right about one thing I should have put them into Red or Blue or another Org on day one or two since they are orgs that manage these expectations better then I can by myself. So next time I get a group of people together I will try this approach maybe after next years movie when I seem to get interest in the game. This group is already moved on. Unless they saw a radical change in the game would they give it another shot.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#87 - 2015-09-06 17:27:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Markus Reese
Verstal wrote:


  • Desire to play and pay for the experience they see in the movie or movies.
  • Expectation that if they give it a few weeks they will being getting that experience in small tastes.
  • If they invest 6 months of time and or money they will get the experience they see in the movies.
  • If they continue up to a year of time they will get the full experience of Eve flying around in Titans and Super Caps when ever they want and using big guns to do bad things.
  • They were ready to pay for subs and just say they will give it another try after a few weeks of training since "I cant even put a launcher or turret on a ship or fly the ship I see in the movie."





All the problems you mentioned are mostly the fault of simpified mechanics and player base. A pro and fun pvp experience is available from the start, but closed mindedness means SP 10m minimum and all that bs.

Edit: There is zero reason that people who are new cannot be in a main fight. In fact, they should be vital in my opinion. Shame though, people worry too much about their killboard stats instead of a gf.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Verstal
Incredibuilders United
#88 - 2015-09-06 17:29:42 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
Verstal wrote:
Tiberius Heth wrote:
If someone has a problem with sub games then that pretty much means that IF the game would be f2p they'd have a problem with paying for anything, meaning they'd be freeloaders. Explain to us why CCP should change the game and us, the current players accept these changes, so that some freeloaders can play our game?


They aren't free loaders they spend on content they can keep like the ship skins this is how I think they think about it.


  • Desire to play and pay for the experience they see in the movie or movies.
  • Expectation that if they give it a few weeks they will being getting that experience in small tastes.
  • If they invest 6 months of time and or money they will get the experience they see in the movies.
  • If they continue up to a year of time they will get the full experience of Eve flying around in Titans and Super Caps when ever they want and using big guns to do bad things.

  • All want to use dexterity or skills found in MOBAs or FPS's to win fights, skill shots, using cover, fog of war, etc.
  • Once they experience the Rookie missions or what you would call the basic mechanics of Eve they ask well this isnt close to the movies, how do I go in that direction.

  • Start doing the simple math until they hit the personal beyond responsible time limitations and pause.
  • All walk away after a few days instead of what they wanted to do was run forward giving effort to learn.
  • Every time they try to fit module and find out they have to wait even an hour to do it sours them.
  • They were ready to pay for subs and just say they will give it another try after a few weeks of training since "I cant even put a launcher or turret on a ship or fly the ship I see in the movie."



Why are you not simply be a good friend and give them the answers to their questions? You should have enough input now to do so, right?


I spent hours a day with each of them or groups of them answering every question, and I enjoyed going through the basic content with them and seeing it through their new to the game eyes, but nothing I can do can give them the experience of the CCP movie at the rate they want to see it.
Romvex
TURN LEFT
HYDRA RELOADED
#89 - 2015-09-06 17:30:24 UTC
From what I'm reading it seems you want Eve to be free to play so your friends who play CoD and LoL can play with you without crying because the trailers have more action then they'll see for a while in the game.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#90 - 2015-09-06 17:33:02 UTC
So this isn't actually an “I want F2P” whine, but an “I want P2W” whine. Goodie.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#91 - 2015-09-06 17:39:29 UTC
I can see where they are coming from. What is presented and what is actually experienced are quite disconnexted. I feel the same. Even the dominion trailer was supposed to sample large alliance but I did not see station games and more than one ship at a time was being shot at.....

Even the visuals.... I used advanced camera options to change the visuals in eve. Most only see brackets. I see...

http://i.imgur.com/1Uv8td1.png

Why isnt this the default camera viewing and a hud that centres around this style?

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
#92 - 2015-09-06 17:40:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Anne Dieu-le-veut
Verstal wrote:

All are very excited but as soon as they find out about the training time they get discouraged then they see the subscriptions fees most are great gamers do the calculations and just go this isn't worth my time or effort or money. They actually get angry at CCP saying things like, "what a scam or rip off."

...they are ready to spend money, and are excited about being in a space MMO.


Bad troll is bad. Your "friends" are ready to spend money on the game, but object to $15 a month (or less) for a subscription, and think it's a scam? Have they never played a subscription based MMO before?

Verstal wrote:

I have had a few days to think about this based on the feedback from my gaming group as they love to talk about this on vent and I know this would be a radical departure from the game it is today, but they would be willing to buy ships and skins for real money if they could keep them.


This game isn't for your friends, apparently. There are a couple other space games out there where you can buy your ships with IRL money and not worry about losing them, like Star Trek Online. Stop trying to turn EVE into something it's not.

Edit: TBH after reading the rest of this thread, your friends sound like instant gratification teenagers, and I'll be glad when they go back to whatever P2W Chinese grinder they were playing.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2015-09-06 17:41:44 UTC
Verstal wrote:


I spent hours a day with each of them or groups of them answering every question, and I enjoyed going through the basic content with them and seeing it through their new to the game eyes, but nothing I can do can give them the experience of the CCP movie at the rate they want to see it.

But F2P if not actually meant as P2W will not help to overcome the impatience of your friends ... EvE is a complex game with a lot of freedom for the players, and most of the content (especially the one shown in the video) is organized and created by other players. So you need to find the right group to do the fun stuff with (btw, the names of the groups and players are mentioned in the trailer). If you just sit there and wait that the fun comes to you, EvE certainly will suck.

I'm my own NPC alt.

Verstal
Incredibuilders United
#94 - 2015-09-06 17:48:12 UTC
Romvex wrote:
From what I'm reading it seems you want Eve to be free to play so your friends who play CoD and LoL can play with you without crying because the trailers have more action then they'll see for a while in the game.


People have high expectations these days the expectation that CCP movie creates is hard for most people to find on their own, but these are people that spend money on games every day of the week.

So taking a hardline stance that they arent worth the trouble is something I felt myself for years.

I am older softened my stance on this and am trying to figure out a way to keep people logging in and training so that they might give it another shot in a few months and not just remove the game from their computer.

Funny you mention CoD and LoL some of these people work on those games for a living, so the last thing they want is to play something like them in fact the biggest draw for me personally is it has nothing to do with CoD. I wonder why that is? :-)



Mag's
Azn Empire
#95 - 2015-09-06 17:51:27 UTC
Verstal wrote:
I am not new 8 years in same corp.
Yet here you are, still ignorant of how Eve and the Plex works, after all those years.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

WASPY69
Xerum.
#96 - 2015-09-06 18:29:16 UTC
OP you're ignoring the most important fact about EVE. It's not a casual game, it's a hobby. It's a hobby for adults who like risk and reward, and also internet spaceships. It's sort of the last great MMO, not yet turned into a theme park.

The thing with free to play games is you get in, get your quick fix and get out. Kinda like sex without foreplay. Great to satisfy your itch, but some crave more. And the answer is EVE.

Furthermore, EVE isn't a game focused on gameplay as much as social interaction. You value the people you meet more than the amount of SP in your head. I would have equally as fun in a Rifter as I would in a Naglfar if I was flying with the right group of people.

So if they're not interested in joining a group and forming new friendships and they just care about their rank and K/D ratio then EVE isn't for them.

This signature intentionally left blank

Verstal
Incredibuilders United
#97 - 2015-09-06 18:40:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Verstal
Mag's wrote:
Verstal wrote:
I am not new 8 years in same corp.
Yet here you are, still ignorant of how Eve and the Plex works, after all those years.


When I started we had no Plex, I thought it was a mistake at the time to introduce them, but changed that stance after I realized that I could stop paying my subs since had enough isk do what I wanted in the game and not give CCP money but as a game developer myself I thought it was a short cut to increase profits for CCP.

My expectation for CCP is that they would use this influx of cash to increase the quality of the content following the same pattern they had which was updating the visuals based on video card performance capabilities.

They showed me the Walking in Station demo on a laptop 10 years ago at GDC, I went on a white board and explained to them how the speed of light at which information travels would prevent them from creating the system they had shown me at the time, and some possible ways around it.

All the ways would be a fundamental change to the core structure of Eve and we all agreed that it would be a terrible path to follow, but they continued to invest in what they renamed Ambulation for years.

Most of the money from initial burst of Plex cash went into buying White Wolf and starting the Vampire team not Eve.

I then again met more CCP in Shanghai went drinking with them had a few lunches we mostly talked about DUST before it was released since I am considered an expert on that genre, COD, Quake Series, Medal Honor etc.

Now we seem to be at state where CCP has slowly nerfed income generation for a certain percentage of he population and those people are choosing to leave the game instead of paying for it.

Could be good new players getting to experience the same content with fresh eyes, ah we come full circle my recent experience newer players not wanting to work that hard for what they are seeing in trailer. This is why I asked the question about Free To Play. Many of your ideas are inspiring.

Regardless of my personal history with CCP I love Eve for what it is but finding it hard to keep good gamers interested in it long enough to invest in it, by designing a free to play model that doesn't destroy what veteran players love about the game could be time well spent for CCP to survive the next 10 years.

No easy task, but I am thinking about it, and writing down a design for them for free before i get dragged into another life consuming development cycle.

Current CCP trend is VR headsets and breaking parts off the game to create to products like Valkyrie which use the same models in the Unreal 3 or 4 engine but give the player a different experience, and offer CCP new revenue steam.

These new streams could be used to support Eve and continue to increase the fidelity of the Eve Universe but again they might use this cash to take to break more of Eve into other smaller products hoping one hits it big.

The UI direction is an indicator that CCP have plans to put Eve on touch screen devices so that you can play it from an iPad and or other tablet device. I am sure this is possible to do this already.

The content delivery method mentioned in the Fan fest video of content on demand would indicate that this in fact a way to deliver content to smaller devices. By putting development resources in this direction it seems that CCP is moving away from the standard PC as a hardware platform.

Predicted next marketing message, You can Take Eve Everywhere! or New Eden in the palm of your hand!


Done for now, sorry for long post.
Malt Zedong
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#98 - 2015-09-06 19:15:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Malt Zedong
Verstal wrote:
Last few days since returning I have been getting friends to join me from other games.

All are very excited but as soon as they find out about the training time they get discouraged then they see the subscriptions fees most are great gamers do the calculations and just go this isn't worth my time or effort or money. They actually get angry at CCP saying things like, "what a scam or rip off." I try to warn them before they download it that it is a very different game but the reality doesn't hit them til they start actually playing.

Then I am left with people that are "I will afk train for my trial account and if I dont see anything I like in a few weeks after training I will not play it."

So I have been trying to think of a way for CCP to keep these people, they are good gamers, they are ready to spend money, and are excited about being in a space MMO.

I tell them they could buy characters with isk for plex's most don't want this they want to create a character they feel they started and own, named etc.


Has CCP talked about this at any point as a possibility? If so can I get a link.


I usually dont brag but that one asked for it.

I am not one of the most prolific jack of all trades in eve and I have been plexing at least 4 accounts since I stopped paying for EVE it has been a little over 4 years.
Trade, Salvage, Hauling, and I dont even mission run besides standing distro mish here and there. Occasionally I get my more skilled chars into the bazaar.

You also can play EVE for free as plex do not in practical terms is your ability to play, but your ability to retain skillpoints for more than 30 days or to train certain skills.

EVE is a so deep sandbox that if you want it to be free to play, you can make it yourself.

WorldTradersGuild.Com [WTG] - We are here for the long haul.

Verstal
Incredibuilders United
#99 - 2015-09-06 19:32:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Verstal
WASPY69 wrote:
OP you're ignoring the most important fact about EVE. It's not a casual game, it's a hobby. It's a hobby for adults who like risk and reward, and also internet spaceships. It's sort of the last great MMO, not yet turned into a theme park.

The thing with free to play games is you get in, get your quick fix and get out. Kinda like sex without foreplay. Great to satisfy your itch, but some crave more. And the answer is EVE.

Furthermore, EVE isn't a game focused on gameplay as much as social interaction. You value the people you meet more than the amount of SP in your head. I would have equally as fun in a Rifter as I would in a Naglfar if I was flying with the right group of people.

So if they're not interested in joining a group and forming new friendships and they just care about their rank and K/D ratio then EVE isn't for them.




Good points!

I guess it is a question of survival if CCP can survive while creating new products based on Eve to expand the type of customer and amount of customers revenue using New Eden as a test bed for this content they might be fine if one of these new products hit.

Risk is that if they build and invest in content away from the core Eve player or make game play changes that turn off the dedicated hardcore customer and do not have enough new players to replace that revenue stream and if these new players are dedicated enough to stay with the product to invest in it.

This has always been the risk and they have had a few minor stumbles but as far as batting average CCP does a great job of creating content that its customers love.

Just as a side note: As long as they keep making new ships they are safe with me, I love new ships, training for them, fitting them, testing them, that alone is enough to keep me happy, but I am old paper and pen Battletech, StarFleetBattles, Champions gamer, also grew up on Elite from the Apple II these are the reasons I fell in love with Eve to begin with but I am the minority of worldwide gamers, like you.

Hobby point is fine if you have the time to make it your hobby its a very narrow part of the gaming population that can afford the time requirement you mention they have enough time to play a few hours a night and go back to RL.

ADD++ I always thought this is why Goons and other orgs like Red / Blue were successful is that they remove these bricks off the plate of players that have a limited amount of time. Also proves the point that the most successful orgs in Eve make the game easier to play by providing services that CCP is not providing.
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#100 - 2015-09-06 20:32:17 UTC
Val'Dore wrote:
The people who will multibox already multibox.
Oh heck no, no way, face reality on that one. Most people would suddenly have suicide ganker alts scattered throughout highsec. No effort suicide ganker alts swarming all areas of the game, ready at a moments notice within a few gates.

The way it is now, when the month is up, those alts become unusable. But make this game f2p and you will have swarms of deadly suicide gankers coming at you every day until you either join them or quit.

And what is CCP going to do about it, remove PvP? This game would turn into friggen My Little Pony Online!

This thread is one of the most irrational topics that keep popping up every other month until locked. And I recall a video where CCP said they could never do it, not unless EVE was designed that way from the start, so really it's just a troll thread topic. F2P is impossible for EVE, period.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12