These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
123Next pageLast page
 

NPE feedback Q and A

First post First post First post
Author
CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1 - 2015-07-02 11:45:15 UTC
We've seen many posts this week on starting skills and the NPE as a whole (especially on reddit :) so I thought you might like a small status update on these things.

Let's do it as a kind of FAQ format and if I miss something major let me know.

Q: 'Opportunities are bad, they've made the NPE much worse'
A: As you know, we did a lot of testing on this system and would not have pushed it out to 100% of new players if it was doing damage. That said, it isn't doing enormously better than the old tutorial and we think there is still lots of room for improvement. We have an iteration plan already in place which we will begin testing within the next couple weeks.

Q: 'Can we send new players to career agents since that's what veteran players are recommending anyway'
A: Yes. This is one of the changes on our plan to try and test very shortly. We will probably have an Opportunity to go to career agents somewhere early in the Opportunity path.

Q: 'Starting skills are a huge barrier, can we give a lot more to new players'
A: Yes. But this is not a simple change. You guys seem fairly agreed that the small amount of starting skills, combined with a high amount of 'must have' support and requirement skills, leads to some really icky barriers to participation for new players. We are inclined to agree and we are in the process of laying out a plan to address the problem. Nothing is set in stone yet but it seems likely that we will try and move new players towards starting with significantly more SP. Maybe between 1 and 2 million. It also seems likely that we will probably avoid any major skill reworks or skill removals. As this plan solidifies you will hear more from us.

Q: 'Attributes aren't very interesting, you should remove them'
A: Again, we agree. Team Size Matters discussed removing them on the o7 show (or some other public venue) awhile back and it's still something we are very interested in. We need to figure out a good way to handle all the learning implants in the game though, which is actually a difficult problem. If any of you have awesome ideas for how to handle it don't hesitate to make suggestions.

Each topic probably deserves more detail but I think waiting until things are slated for release to go deeper probably makes sense.

One last note: even if we aren't actively posting in these discussions on reddit or elsewhere, we are avid readers of community content and it helps us enormously to see your discussions (don't take that as a 'CCP PLS' posts are awesome though :P)

o/

@ccp_rise

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2015-07-02 11:49:57 UTC
It's a small thing, might not even help people much but a popup or similar when people enter and exit the "newbie areas" would be very helpful.

For the new skills debate I suggest finding a common fit of a meta mod frigate and at the very least giving them the skills to fit the mods out the gate...MWDs...I'm looking at you...They can all be level 1 of the skill, whatever - at least then they dont have an entry barrier, but progression.
Kalen Pavle
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2015-07-02 11:57:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Kalen Pavle
Attribute enhancers are really quite simple to fix.

Change them to give a percentage increase to all sp gain. Numbers from ass:

+1 implant changes to 1.02x training multiplier
+5 implant cahgnes to 1.1x training multiplier

^ numbers are way too high but you understand. They should be balanced so that with a set of 5, +5 implants your training time is increased the same amount that two +5 implants would have modified the training time on a skill matching the proper primary/secondary stat.

They can't be balanced that two gives you the same bonus because then SP income will increase way too far.
FireFrenzy
Cynosural Samurai
#4 - 2015-07-02 12:04:11 UTC
Good to see you guys are keeping us in the loop... Might not seem like much but "i know he's paying attention becuase he told me too" and "i know he's paying attention because look there he is" are two very different things...
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#5 - 2015-07-02 12:04:53 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Q: 'Starting skills are a huge barrier, can we give a lot more to new players'
A: Yes. But this is not a simple change. You guys seem fairly agreed that the small amount of starting skills, combined with a high amount of 'must have' support and requirement skills, leads to some really icky barriers to participation for new players. We are inclined to agree and we are in the process of laying out a plan to address the problem. Nothing is set in stone yet but it seems likely that we will try and move new players towards starting with significantly more SP. Maybe between 1 and 2 million. It also seems likely that we will probably avoid any major skill reworks or skill removals. As this plan solidifies you will hear more from us.

No, it does not lead to any barriers. How is 1D 10H an entry barrier to anything?

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Britilio Sandaris
Manic Miners Corporation
Manic Miners Alliance
#6 - 2015-07-02 12:08:36 UTC
Well I just want to chime in that this is really good stuff that CCP is considering. Making newbies waste time on stuff they just "need" is a barrier to entry, and... well you've already heard all this.


Removal of attributes so everything trains at 2500 sp/h would be great. How about "+10 sp/h" per implant level? (so you have 5 +3 implants? that's +150 sp/h, so 2650 sp/h)... just an idea.

Anyway, good stuff ccp. Really good stuff.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2015-07-02 12:10:10 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Because waiting for FIVE HOURS to just fit a T1 MWD is either engaging, fun or any use to anyone tbh.

It adds nothing.

The whole instant gratification thing doesn't hold water either, not low level things like level 1 of a skill to even online the mod.


In the new hours of a game, the very last thing you want someone doing it twiddling their thumbs waiting on a skill to let the fit a mod.

Patience to progress: Good
Patience to even fit mod which then needs more patience to progress: Bad.
The Rokh Lobster
Fwehman Brothers Holdings
#8 - 2015-07-02 12:15:42 UTC
Quick, somebody hire Shia Labeouf and fly him to Iceland to give CCP a motivational speech.
Tikktokk Tokkzikk
Hoover Inc.
Pandemic Legion
#9 - 2015-07-02 12:16:39 UTC
I'd love to see learning implants changed to empire versions of pirate implants with effects tied to their old attribute.

Example for Social Adaptation Chip:
Alpha could have a bonus to standing increase. Beta could have a bonus to effective standing. Gamma could have a reduction to standing loss. Delta could have a bonus to ISK reward. Epsilon could have a bonus to LP reward. Each with a set bonus.
Zappity
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#10 - 2015-07-02 12:17:04 UTC
Why is removing learning implants a difficult problem? Just get rid of them and increase base training rate to whatever the current long term player average training rate is. Add 1-2 week duration booster drugs if you really have to.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#11 - 2015-07-02 12:17:31 UTC
I certainly think they should be able to use a web , point and scram right from day 1
they're literally the only things you need to start fitting for PvP from day one.

Enough to use one drone wouldn't be a bad idea either as most ships use them

Not sp related but I have seen countless nubinns with the notion that being capstable is a must, which is a) very hard for a new player with crap cap skills and b) actually not that useful a thing outside of some pve fits

Now I remember having this notion also, as did the lads I started playing with and iv been poking new players about it to see if my initial thoughts on the subject were correct.

Essentially the visual language of the capacitor in the fitting screen tells us that
cap stability is good (green yeaaay \o/ )
and unstable fits are bad (red booooo /o\ )

This is frequently something we need to correct newbie players on when fitting for PvP, now I'm not saying ohhh woe are we needing to repeat ourselves, or that one can't figure it out given a little bit of getting shot in the face but it strikes me that the ui actually seems to mislead the newbies consistently with this .

Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#12 - 2015-07-02 12:18:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
afkalt wrote:
Because waiting for FIVE HOURS to just fit a T1 MWD is either engaging, fun or any use to anyone tbh.

5 hours? It is 8 minutes. There are other things than MWD in the realm of prop mods.

@Ralph:

You can, 30 minutes after you started the game. 1 hr later you can fit a prop mod, use drones, repair mods and tank mods. 2 hours later, you can even use an MWD.

I do not understand how this little waiting time is a barrier at all.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Ransu Asanari
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#13 - 2015-07-02 12:20:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Ransu Asanari
I watched the o7 shows, and the Fanfest presentation on NPE. One thing I still am not sold on, is the NPE (maybe not limited to Opportunities?) not having a monetary/asset reward for completing tasks. This seems to be a major part of the change to the new system, but I haven't heard a lot of reasoning behind why this is such a requirement. Could you elaborate?

Edit: For background I went back and rewatched that part of the 2014 Fanfest presentation: https://youtu.be/sbHqFgn4SOw?t=644

When I started playing EVE, I was absolutely dependent on the Career Agent missions to get me going at a decent pace. They provided a lot of the initial skillbooks and starter ships. If I screwed up and blew up the ship (which happened a few times), I could go to a different Career Agent and repeat the mission.

This wasn't a huge amount of ISK or equipment, but it definitely softened the entry into the game for me. You can see here how detailed some of the rewards are, and for a brand new player, it's pretty helpful to complete these all to pick up all of the ships, skillbooks, and equipment:

http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Tutorial_and_Career_Agents_in_EVE

Replacing the original tutorial with Opportunities I think is fine, but I'd really like to hear more about the plan for revamping the Career Agent missions/rewards, and how monetary rewards for completing tasks in Opportunities will be handled.

If we don't want to give new players "tunnel vision" to complete those missions to get the tools they need to actually play the game in a meaningful way, we should discuss alternatives, and what tools we give them to start with. A noobship and a rubix cube may not be enough.
Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere
Coalition of the Unfortunate
#14 - 2015-07-02 12:21:18 UTC
I'd be interested in seeing a couple of million unallocated SP assigned to a character when it joins a player run corporation for the first time. It would be a significant lure and more importantly, it would help give players a home with other people, who could (hopefully) advise how to allocate those SP depending on what they want to do... for example, indy skills would be different from combat skills.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2015-07-02 12:22:39 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
You forgot the prereqs 5 hours of them.

No-one wants fast tackle AB only. NO-ONE. 'Cept the succubus but given the topic I feel we can set that one aside.

Dual prop, sure, AB only? Nah.


Reddit poster nails if:

Quote:
in that first few hours, they are unable to try a lot of the stuff they want to do. As eve goes on, you become time poorer and SP richer, but it's those early few hours, where your friend is telling you "just sit here for 30 minutes whilst this trains and THEN you can have fun" that is a big offputter



Those first hours they should be able to try entry level everything newbish out the gate. No waiting on a time gated entry.

The psychological difference of "an hour before I can even bother" vs "In just an hour I'll be even BETTER" is enormous when you are first experiencing a game.
Tikktokk Tokkzikk
Hoover Inc.
Pandemic Legion
#16 - 2015-07-02 12:25:09 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Why is removing learning implants a difficult problem? Just get rid of them and increase base training rate to whatever the current long term player average training rate is. Add 1-2 week duration booster drugs if you really have to.


I'd imagine because learning implants are an important part of LP stores.
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#17 - 2015-07-02 12:26:59 UTC
afkalt wrote:
It's a small thing, might not even help people much but a popup or similar when people enter and exit the "newbie areas" would be very helpful.

For the new skills debate I suggest finding a common fit of a meta mod frigate and at the very least giving them the skills to fit the mods out the gate...MWDs...I'm looking at you...They can all be level 1 of the skill, whatever - at least then they dont have an entry barrier, but progression.


This. I'd go so far as to say that a new player should be able to fit and use every 'meta 0' tech1/basic mod in the game right off the bat with a very few execptions.

Also I always thought it might be a good idea to start players out with ships that can actually do things. Like taking the 'noob ships' and having them fit out with low power 'civilian' mods (guns, prop mods, ewar) from the start. The current noob ships are useless.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#18 - 2015-07-02 12:28:32 UTC
Having some *empire-implant-set* with very weak bonuses would be interesting, similar to a geno-set or snake-set. Just instead of massive numbers, a few % total to respective racial traits (Caldari imps add a bit grav sensor strength, a few % damage with missiles and hybrid guns, and a few % shield hp; gallente adding to hybrid damage, armor rep amount and agility for example, like a 0.5% set-bonus to each for a old +1 imps and 2% for old +4s)
Dieterlin
Reckless-Endangerment
Manifesto.
#19 - 2015-07-02 12:28:37 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Because waiting for FIVE HOURS to just fit a T1 MWD is either engaging, fun or any use to anyone tbh.

5 hours? It is 8 minutes. There are other things than MWD in the realm of prop mods.

@Ralph:

You can, 30 minutes after you started the game. 1 hr later you can fit a prop mod, use drones, repair mods and tank mods. 2 hours later, you can even use an MWD.

I do not understand how this little waiting time is a barrier at all.


Because newbies don't have an optimized skill training queue, or even a good idea of what they want to do in the game. Sticking 12 hours of waiting between trying mining, explo, PVP or PVE makes for a bad new player experience.
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#20 - 2015-07-02 12:28:52 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Q: 'Starting skills are a huge barrier, can we give a lot more to new players'
A: Yes. But this is not a simple change. You guys seem fairly agreed that the small amount of starting skills, combined with a high amount of 'must have' support and requirement skills, leads to some really icky barriers to participation for new players. We are inclined to agree and we are in the process of laying out a plan to address the problem. Nothing is set in stone yet but it seems likely that we will try and move new players towards starting with significantly more SP. Maybe between 1 and 2 million. It also seems likely that we will probably avoid any major skill reworks or skill removals. As this plan solidifies you will hear more from us.

No, it does not lead to any barriers. How is 1D 10H an entry barrier to anything?


Because you're looking at it as a veteran player. By the time you know it takes less than a day and a half to train something, you're probably months into the game.
123Next pageLast page