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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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NPE feedback Q and A

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Author
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#41 - 2015-07-02 13:22:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Divine Entervention
Nice, it's good to see the side I use to argue against finally understanding the point I was making a year ago.

Sure, you guys were slow on the uptake, but I'm glad you finally reached the point where you've figured out what I did a long time ago.

+1 community, keep being impressive.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4276354#post4276354

Like just the acknowledgement and promise to fix the NPE has piqued my interest enough to resubscribe.

Thanks
Amber Harrington
Rookie Ants
#42 - 2015-07-02 13:22:09 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:

No, it does not lead to any barriers. How is 1D 10H an entry barrier to anything?


Lol.

You don't start to play a new game to NOT play it for 1D 10H or more.

Why you bittervets are so scared of newbies having some actual fun?
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#43 - 2015-07-02 13:26:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Jenn aSide wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
So, basically what people need are these 1D 8H worth of SP in order to have fun?

You continue to miss the point. Its not "1d 8h", it's "1d 8h for a veteran player who knows what to look for".
[...]
I'm like a lot of people, I quit EVE after the 1st day, it was only the fact that a buddy kept bugging me to play with him that i came back after a couple weeks. With his help i trained up a rifter, we went to low sec, i got blown up by a Brutix (guy gave me my loot back) and i was hooked for these last 8 years.

I'm not missing anything; however, you just gave the answer to all your problems. Your reason for quitting wasn't the skill time, your reason was lack of connection, of familiar people or friendly people to play with, of people who teach you stuff and help you. That lack is what keeps people from living through the first day. Since veteran players know what they are looking for, it should be only natural for a new player to be able to ask them, be able to find help from them (chats, forums, video tutorials, blogs, otherwise created guidance). If a newbie asks for a fitting in the Rookie Chat or answers to the question "What do you want to do?" with "I want to shoot someone with lasers/blasters!", people should give them a basic fitting, fitting advice on what to do and what not (dual/triple tank, anyone?), direct them to some tutorials and videos demonstrating what this fitting/ship can do and what not, provide them with more help and info to emerging questions and so on. This keeps them busy for hours with actually helpful content and makes them informed and basic good players and not dumb fire drones yoloing into a Billboard or a Poco.

Amber Harrington wrote:
You don't start to play a new game to NOT play it for 1D 10H or more.
Why you bittervets are so scared of newbies having some actual fun?

I have not not played the game when I started. I was hooked from minute one after I entered the game. I had tons of stuff to do during my first hours and even more things to learn/watch/read/understand. And even after that I just had grasped bare basics.
This has nothing to do with scariness, at all. It is more about introducing players to wrong concepts that are hard to rectify at a later stage.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#44 - 2015-07-02 13:28:17 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
We've seen many posts this week on starting skills and the NPE as a whole (especially on reddit :) so I thought you might like a small status update on these things.


Q: 'Attributes aren't very interesting, you should remove them'
A: Again, we agree. Team Size Matters discussed removing them on the o7 show (or some other public venue) awhile back and it's still something we are very interested in. We need to figure out a good way to handle all the learning implants in the game though, which is actually a difficult problem. If any of you have awesome ideas for how to handle it don't hesitate to make suggestions.

o/


another approach could be by making them interesting, instead of removing then use them for something else.

first thing that came to my mind, is that instead of using them as a trainings time modifier, why not use them as a modifier on certain skills when used.

small example

perception: as a modifier on scanning
memory: for archeology
Willpower: for cargo efficiency (I know far fetched, it's a brain fart)
Intelligence: for Hacking
charisma: for trade


the thing one of the strong points of EVE is also it's weakness, the fact that you can learn everything others can is a really strong point though it is also what a lot of new players experience as a blocked to be of use to others. they want to matter to feel useful in a short amount of time.

I think that is easier established with diversity and setting attributes to specialize in a area could be a way to give that to younger players.

it would be nice to see the 1 year old out skill the 5 year old, because although they have both maxed skills in lets interceptor piloting, but the one year old has invested his attributes in to becoming a dedicated interceptor pilot.

And by keeping the remaps the player can move from profession from time to time, to probably a more equally divided remap after a couple of years of the increase in skills makes it more useful to spread.


it's not the easiest option but I think it's a nice way to open up real opportunities for newer players




Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#45 - 2015-07-02 13:31:18 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

Q: 'Attributes aren't very interesting, you should remove them'
A: Again, we agree. Team Size Matters discussed removing them on the o7 show (or some other public venue) awhile back and it's still something we are very interested in. We need to figure out a good way to handle all the learning implants in the game though, which is actually a difficult problem. If any of you have awesome ideas for how to handle it don't hesitate to make suggestions.

What will be the point in retaining the pod once the main reason to attempt to save one after ship death is gone? Super/Titan pilots invariably always lose their pods after ship death anyway (since they are deep in bubble-hell and everyone knows they'll have shiney pods so immediately go for the kill), pod travel can be easily done with free noobships anyway, and hardwires are generally pretty meh (barring the two fitting ones); it'll only be slaved-up lowsec pilots who will ever need to care about preserving their pod (and because they are in lowsec, they should never lose it). As it stands, pods are rapidly becoming utterly pointless, and serving to only be a two minute enforced downtime upon ship loss until the self-destruct timer runs down.
Asshin Riraille
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2015-07-02 13:31:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Asshin Riraille
Q: 'Attributes aren't very interesting, you should remove them'

Idea 1:
Remove attribute revamp and set every one's attributes to 20/20/20/20/20 and leave the implants as they're.

Idea2:
Remove attribute revamp and set every one's attributes to 20/20/20/20/20 and change attribute implants, so there would be only 1slot for attribute implants, but they would give far higher bonus(and ofc they would be far more expensive).
Shoxxx
State War Academy
Caldari State
#47 - 2015-07-02 13:35:08 UTC
Just change starting skills to be enough to use every T1 frig and every T1 frig module and say all the core cpu/grid/navigation

A newbie should only have to touch a book if they want to go T2 or up a ship class
Zarek RedHill
State War Academy
Caldari State
#48 - 2015-07-02 13:43:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Zarek RedHill
a few random thoughts about NPE (note I've been playing for about 6 months):

- maybe create 'civilian' versions of all the bare basic modules you need to fly a pve/pvp ship -- and make them not so horrible. Maybe 90% as effective as the T1 module. That should be a relatively simple, non-disruptive change.

- I believe skill implants incentives are backwards. Characters who put their pod in danger and lose implants train slower than character who do not undock. You want to reward people who go out and participate in multiplayer content. Other games use non-tradeable items and daily/weekly quests/missions to achieve this. It's a little harder in Eve due to its sandbox nature (i.e. it's not easy to define what 'participating in multiplayer content' means). That said, in principle I think players should have a skill training incentive (not dis-incentive) to undock and participate in content.

Honestly it would be better to extinguish learning implants altogether than have them in their present incarnation.

- Another option is to downrank core skills and uprank advanced skills. That way you can allow newbies to do more while keeping veterans' skillpoints intact.

- Create powergrid/cpu implants that operate like the 14- and 30-day cerebral accelerators. e.g. slot 11/12. You can only use such and such implant if you have fewer than X skill points (or character age), etc. That way newbies have to pay a premium in ISK to be able to fly certain fits, but not prevented altogether.

- auto-select the "New-Pilot Friendly" checkbox in the Recruitment Search screen under the "looking for" dropdown for all new players. Also put it on the top of the list, not near the bottom.

- Once you reach 10/10 missions completed w/ a Career Agent, give newbros a dependable way of getting steered to the SOE Epic Arc quest line. it's great content when you go from your first few hours and onto your first few days. In fact, more of these kinds of 'epic' quest lines for new bros I think would be great. Once you get to 8-12 of these 'scenario'-like scripted mission lines, newbros can be entertained for a good few weeks - enough to get them hooked into the game. Add bronze/silver/gold medal-like rewards for various completion levels and you got yourself a great way for players from other MMOs to get captured into the Eve universe.

- work to make mining/industry (one of the most accessible parts of the game for newcomers) more engaging and rewarding to a fully engaged player. Presently this stuff is relegated to off-screen alts :(. In the very least mining missions should give better ISK/hr than mining the same asteroid belts day after day.

- Add a career agent for Planetary Interaction. You have said it yourself -- players love staring at planets :).

- When a new player gets kicked out of the "newbie help" channel due to being over 20(?) days old, send him/her an evemail with a link to their appropriate language Help channel.

- Create a more conspicuous 'bulletin board' for content creation organizations such as Spectre Fleet to attract newbros. (a link in the Help channel MOTD?) Ditto for Evepedia, Eve's subreddit, eve news sites & popular streamers/youtubers.

Sorry about the loose disjointedness -- just various thoughts that have popped in my head about NPE in the last few months.
-Z
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#49 - 2015-07-02 13:46:49 UTC
I am probably echoing some earlier sentiments, but they bear repeating.


  • Core fitting skills (CPU Efficiency, Power Grid Efficiency) should be either removed or partially baked in, with the skills themselves providing a far smaller benefit (and the net change between then and now being nothing at rank 5.)
  • Just remove learning implants and attributes and set everyone training at 2700 SP/hr. The LP markets will recover.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#50 - 2015-07-02 13:48:22 UTC
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:

Q: 'Attributes aren't very interesting, you should remove them'
A: Again, we agree. Team Size Matters discussed removing them on the o7 show (or some other public venue) awhile back and it's still something we are very interested in. We need to figure out a good way to handle all the learning implants in the game though, which is actually a difficult problem. If any of you have awesome ideas for how to handle it don't hesitate to make suggestions.

What will be the point in retaining the pod once the main reason to attempt to save one after ship death is gone? Super/Titan pilots invariably always lose their pods after ship death anyway (since they are deep in bubble-hell and everyone knows they'll have shiney pods so immediately go for the kill), pod travel can be easily done with free noobships anyway, and hardwires are generally pretty meh (barring the two fitting ones); it'll only be slaved-up lowsec pilots who will ever need to care about preserving their pod (and because they are in lowsec, they should never lose it). As it stands, pods are rapidly becoming utterly pointless, and serving to only be a two minute enforced downtime upon ship loss until the self-destruct timer runs down.


Well if they removed the ability to pull implants while undocked, you'd see a pretty Great need to preserve your pod upon shipdeath.

I'm sure the Bhaalgorn pilots with Talisman impants would want to preserve their pod
Slave set pods in low
Crystal Sets in Null.
Virtue Scout Implants
etc etc etc.

You want to see people panic and turn into risk adverse wimps, disallow the ability to pull implants while in space.

The amount of tears that will stream will end the drought in California.

Yaay!!!!

Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#51 - 2015-07-02 13:51:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Galphii
I recently started a new character just to see how the NPE looked. One of the things that really stuck out was the minimum requirement to use 1 light drone, as compared to other weapons. Drones 3? (even though your rookie ship can only use 1). Consider lowering this requirement.

Glad to hear you're considering the removal of attributes. To give each race some variation aside from appearance, how about a skill bonus for something that race is good at? 5% energy weapon cap use bonus for Amarr, 5% agility bonus for Gallente etc. Nothing too game-breaking but enough to add flavour to each race.

As a more extreme idea related to the entire game, I was thinking of the possibility of lowering skill requirements for ships and weapons in general to level 1. Faster to get into initially, yet you'll still have to skill up to get good with it. e.g. getting into a t2 cruiser could be done with only cruiser level 1/HAC level 1. Always found it odd that the t1 hull bonus per level is still listed on t2 hulls despite the fact you'll have that at 5 anyway (could have just baked those bonuses into the hull and removed description clutter).

Basically you'd be using level 5 skills for specialising, as opposed to massive time hurdles restricting player freedom.

It'd be an improvement over waiting a month for cruiser 5 etc just to get into a doctrine HAC, with money as the limiting factor. With the infinite skill queue, players can be tempted to queue things up and not log in for a month 'til they can play the game the way they want, in the ship they want. This'd be a big change but might be worth considering.

Edit: Remove learning implants, and consider spreading the hardwirings across slots 1-6 (as well as adding more for various aspects of the game not yet covered by implants). Perhaps a booster for faster learning could be added (one that can be used past 14 days anyway!)

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.

Lim Hiaret
Hiaret Family
#52 - 2015-07-02 13:55:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Lim Hiaret
New player (real new player) would benefit greatly from any activity based skill progression. Players would not immediately need to understand the complicated SP system. They would automatically get the SP required for what they do and what interests them at that time. Also they can do something (play) to get the next module or ship and actually achieve something (instead of wait whatever amount of time). Also this would be much closer to the 'industry standard' players are used to.

The Opportunity system could award skills and SP to get this. And it would automatically exclude older players from free skill points. For older players the current system is fine, mostly because ISK and experience are more important than virtual SP later in game. It also supports a more casual play style which is great for older player and when the first passion for the game is over.

Giving new players more SP is fine, but it feels more like a workaround. And please don't just kill the attributes. There is no way back.
Aerasia
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2015-07-02 13:56:06 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Nothing is set in stone yet but it seems likely that we will try and move new players towards starting with significantly more SP. Maybe between 1 and 2 million.

That is not "significantly more SP". Unless you also plan on removing the overwhelming dependence on training things to 5 in order to access skills (like Drones V), modules (Weapon "X" V) or both then 2 million SP isn't going to be an NPE savior. Please remember, every time you say "requires V" that puts almost a week between your player and whatever it is for every level of skill multiplier.

Don't make your players sit around waiting for access to things in your game. I know you have a lot of cheerleaders for making the NPE as harsh and unwelcoming as possible. You saw it when you presented the Opportunities system, you see it when you discuss removing access barriers. Don't listen to those people - they are the problem.

Granting SP to new players just has more upside the more you do it. But don't trust me, do some playtests. Bring some people in and have them smash fleets of high SP requirement ships together. Then put them through the NPE and tell them it'll be 6 months or more before they get to do that again, and watch the light in their eyes go out.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#54 - 2015-07-02 13:59:34 UTC
Querns wrote:
I am probably echoing some earlier sentiments, but they bear repeating.


  • Core fitting skills (CPU Efficiency, Power Grid Efficiency) should be either removed or partially baked in, with the skills themselves providing a far smaller benefit (and the net change between then and now being nothing at rank 5.)
  • Just remove learning implants and attributes and set everyone training at 2700 SP/hr. The LP markets will recover.


Absolutely supported. I've been advocating this for years.

The Core fitting skills need to go - at least Power Grid Management and CPU Management. Just remove the skills and reimburse the skillpoints, or set the skills to Level 5 for every character. For one thing, it will make balancing the ships a hell of a lot easier. You'll know right off the bat what can fit. You won't have to give such generous fitting room to certain ships in order to make it flyable for a new player, while making it totally off-the-hook for a veteran.

The learning implants need to go away as well. Replace them with more interesting hardwiring implants. Or, in the alternative, turn them all into spare parts for hardwires, and let players begin building their own hardwirings.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Anthar Thebess
#55 - 2015-07-02 14:01:28 UTC
When you finally decide to give new players proper skills at startup.
Don't forget to put also proper fits for first ship they can choose from.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#56 - 2015-07-02 14:08:08 UTC  |  Edited by: James Baboli
CCP Rise wrote:


Q: 'Starting skills are a huge barrier, can we give a lot more to new players'
A: Yes. But this is not a simple change. You guys seem fairly agreed that the small amount of starting skills, combined with a high amount of 'must have' support and requirement skills, leads to some really icky barriers to participation for new players. We are inclined to agree and we are in the process of laying out a plan to address the problem. Nothing is set in stone yet but it seems likely that we will try and move new players towards starting with significantly more SP. Maybe between 1 and 2 million. It also seems likely that we will probably avoid any major skill reworks or skill removals. As this plan solidifies you will hear more from us.



That answer raises a few questions for me to the devs.

Would biomassing alts below this thresh hold and rerolling them still be considered an exploit?
If this is not kosher, would these alts be brought up to the new minimum SP?
How are players who created mains right before the change going to be handled?
What skills are being considered for inclusion?

I have a little list of skills I would consider to be useful, but not excessive:


Shield management 3
Tactical shield manipulation 2
shield operation 2

Hull upgrades 3
Armor repair systems 2
mechanics 3

Propulsion jamming 2
Electronic warfare 1

INDUSTRY 2


Afterburner 2
Evasive maneuvering 1

Target management 2

This does mean that a newbie can train into a reasonable fast tackle in literal minutes, and can use the basic PVE modules out of the box, but does not make them great at anything, and leaves them a much better core much faster.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

Ohh Yeah
Seal Club Six
#57 - 2015-07-02 14:11:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Ohh Yeah
CCP Rise,

I was the OP of that Reddit thread about the core skills that you were posting in. The only concern that was brought up there that wasn't listed here were the number of T2 modules locked behind level 5 skills. This runs in opposition to the idea that new players can be time-efficient by training most things to level IV and compete fairly evenly with a vet within the same ship class. Often there are large power spikes in the form of T2 modules and auxiliary skills that come in addition to whatever the 2% bonus/level is for that skill. T2 MAPCs are one of the more obvious examples, since they open up a number of frigate fits but are locked behind a 15 day train.

To stay consistent with the "well level 5 skills aren't time efficient but you can train them for a slight edge", there are quite a few modules that would need their requirement bumped down to IV.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#58 - 2015-07-02 14:16:06 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
So, basically what people need are these 1D 8H worth of SP in order to have fun?

You continue to miss the point. Its not "1d 8h", it's "1d 8h for a veteran player who knows what to look for".
[...]
I'm like a lot of people, I quit EVE after the 1st day, it was only the fact that a buddy kept bugging me to play with him that i came back after a couple weeks. With his help i trained up a rifter, we went to low sec, i got blown up by a Brutix (guy gave me my loot back) and i was hooked for these last 8 years.

I'm not missing anything; however, you just gave the answer to all your problems. Your reason for quitting wasn't the skill time, your reason was lack of connection, of familiar people or friendly people to play with, of people who teach you stuff and help you. That lack is what keeps people from living through the first day. Since veteran players know what they are looking for, it should be only natural for a new player to be able to ask them, be able to find help from them (chats, forums, video tutorials, blogs, otherwise created guidance). If a newbie asks for a fitting in the Rookie Chat or answers to the question "What do you want to do?" with "I want to shoot someone with lasers/blasters!", people should give them a basic fitting, fitting advice on what to do and what not (dual/triple tank, anyone?), direct them to some tutorials and videos demonstrating what this fitting/ship can do and what not, provide them with more help and info to emerging questions and so on. This keeps them busy for hours with actually helpful content and makes them informed and basic good players and not dumb fire drones yoloing into a Billboard or a Poco.


That's "perfect world" thinking that has nothing to do with the subject at hand (the NPE). A good EVe prospect will learn to interact with others quickly, but when you can't do anything fun at the beginning of a game, very few people will keep going, and some of those might have become good eve players. You don't have to give new players 100 million SP and free Titans, but a noob ship with a pop gun and no prop mod is too little as well.

And yes, my reason for quitting was skill time, not interaction, I was interacting the entire time, i just couldn't DO anything in EVE. The goal is to get a new player to keep playing long enough to meet people in the 1st place, and EVE isn't real good at doing that.
Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#59 - 2015-07-02 14:16:08 UTC
Lim Hiaret wrote:
New player (real new player) would benefit greatly from any activity based skill progression. Players would not immediately need to understand the complicated SP system. They would automatically get the SP required for what they do and what interests them at that time. Also they can do something (play) to get the next module or ship and actually achieve something (instead of wait whatever amount of time). Also this would be much closer to the 'industry standard' players are used to.


How does it benefit a new player to trick him in to thinking the game works one way at the start, then tip the rug half a week in and go "nope, its completely different for the rest of the game"? Is the first region of WoW an RTS, the first track on a racing game done without collision detection if the rest of the game has it? Of course not.

Also, hiding prizes behind opportunities is a painful way to "force" newbies in to doing things they don't want to do, "you don't have to do this, but if you don't, go sit in the corner, no cookie".

More sp off the bat (although, I think this is a bad alternative because an ignorant newbie is going to likely waste it), higher starting levels in the more tedious skills (ie, the fitting ones), or just straight removing prerequisites on the majority of T1 modules are all fine and sensible alternatives. Grinding for your sp is not.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#60 - 2015-07-02 14:18:15 UTC
Rise,

First, thank you for this thread. As someone becoming disillusioned with Eve lately, this thread makes me feel very happy. I have written extensively on these topics over the past couple of years, so I will try to summarize my position.

Get rid of attributes, attribute implants, remapping, and everything to do with them.

To me, I pay CCP for the training time, not the play time. I cannot play 23/7, but I can train 24/7. So, this should be a fixed amount of SP/month. I don't really care what SP/hour rate CCP sets. SP should accumulate at the same rate for all subscribers. Eve players should be encouraged to get out in space and interact with each other, with a focus on improving knowledge of game mechanics and player skill vice character skill. Character skill gain should be a steady and dependable thing, with no advantages to wealthier players (whether in game or out of game).

Remaps encourage an unhealthy amount of long term planning, to the detriment of short term gameplay. I get that Eve is about consequences, but the consequences should be that a shiny spaceship explodes and months of ISK are destroyed in the blink of an eye, not that the optimum way to train is to spend several months in a station training INT/MEM before remapping to PER/WP. The optimum way to train should be to undock and die and kill and improve the skills between the keyboard and the chair. All the while, you pay your subscription and your character keeps getting better at a fixed rate/month. You still have to plan what to train and when, but it becomes less about min/maxing attributes and more about what you need in the short-mid-long term.

Redo the whole implant design. All implants should give a direct and tangible benefit when flying your spaceship. Any implants that do not make a spaceship better while being used should get removed (mostly thinking of the attribute implants, but also the refining implants).

Make all implants produced through BPCs and/or Invention. Put the components to build them into data sites and/or PI. I would replace existing implants with a pile of raw materials that could be used to produce new implants. I'd also make it so that players produced all implants. While I was at it, if I worked for CCP, I would take the opportunity to completely revamp and redesign all implants. I'd vastly increase the variety of potential useful implants.

The risk versus reward discussion always comes up with this topic. I agree that risk versus reward is important, but currently misplaced. The risk versus reward should be: if I plug in my Slave set, I have a better chance of winning this fight, but I stand to lose 2.5b if I die. That is a risk versus reward decision that does not discourage me from undocking. The answer is to undock, but I decide how much ISK is at risk.

It should not be: if I plug in these +5 training implants I won't be any better in this fight, but I might be better in another fight six months from now. That is a decision that discourages me from undocking at all.

I want to see Eve players feel comfortable getting in fights right from the beginning. I want to reward players for pimping their ships and pods for short term advantages, because that makes for shiny kill mails. I don't want to encourage people to never undock or to stay in high sec for months on end because they are scared of my bubbles.

TLDR version - get rid of attributes and attribute implants!

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.