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NPE feedback Q and A

First post First post First post
Author
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#21 - 2015-07-02 12:30:26 UTC
afkalt wrote:


The psychological difference of "an hour before I can even bother" vs "In just an hour I'll be even BETTER" is enormous when you are first experiencing a game.


This is the guy CCP needs to hire to help with the NPE Big smile
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#22 - 2015-07-02 12:33:45 UTC
They don't even know that "fast tackle" is, they can't even keep track of the ranges and functionality differences of the mods required for tackle.

If this friend of this reddit poster says this kind of stuff, they are the reason for people to quit. Instead of bluntly giving people this kind of information, they should use the time to teach these new players some basics and give them really helpful information. This psychological difference is just enhanced or created in the first place by people like this friend.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Aileen Morex
Morex Group Inc.
Haven.
#23 - 2015-07-02 12:33:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Aileen Morex
Most "must have skills" take a few minutes to train so they are barely a barrier. I will admit that I started playing when choosing a race and bloodline gave you more then it currently does and that was great. Why not go back to a choice of "What do you want to do in Eve" when characters start?

If new players had some choices and were given skills based on those then there's no waiting and their initial attributes can be set based on those choices.

Imagine starting the game and being able to fly a Venture right away. Then you toss the character in a fitted Venture out in an asteroid belt and lead them through the mining tutorial. Barrier done, they can play right away.

Same goes for PVP or PVE, give them basic skills to ewar, guns, mwd, and other mods and let them use it right away. Fun from the first login.

They'll need to skill to get better but they right away see how to do what they chose to in Eve.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2015-07-02 12:38:31 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
...
Q: 'Attributes aren't very interesting, you should remove them'
A: Again, we agree. Team Size Matters discussed removing them on the o7 show (or some other public venue) awhile back and it's still something we are very interested in. We need to figure out a good way to handle all the learning implants in the game though, which is actually a difficult problem. If any of you have awesome ideas for how to handle it don't hesitate to make suggestions.
...
o/


I disagree on this one as per my reason in the various threads but as it is a done deal:

How about replacing them with faction combat implants. The BPC's for them drop in place of learning implants, they use PI and items (new or existing) from exploration sites to build.

They give a bonus on two areas rather than one, but not as strong in either area as the more focused implants. So for example the guristas implants would bonus missiles and shields, but only at 1/2- 2/3 the amount that a specific implants for missiles or shields would.

This would allow a meaningful choice for solo/small groups to have bonuses in two areas with the use of more expensive implants, but fleet action clones would still benefit more from th specialized implants to maximize their fleet role.

These should be available in lo/mid/high grades as per usual.

Hopefully this would boost the manufacture and PI gameplay and also encourage the use of combat implants on a broader scale.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#25 - 2015-07-02 12:38:44 UTC
Aileen Morex wrote:
Most "must have skills" take a few minutes to train so they are barely a barrier. I will admit that I started playing when choosing a race and bloodline gave you more then it currently does and that was great. Why not go back to a choice of "What do you want to do in Eve" when characters start?

If new players had some choices and were given skills based on those then there's no waiting and their initial attributes can be set based on those choices.

Imagine starting the game and being able to fly a Venture right away. Then you toss the character in a fitted Venture out in an asteroid belt and lead them through the mining tutorial. Barrier done, they can play right away.


The problem with that is that when it existed in the past, it funneled people into the best choices only, and caused a whole lot of people to abandon their 1st character in order to 'get it right' by rolling a new character. We have to remember the mistakes of the past if we don't want to repeat them.

Quote:

Same goes for PVP or PVE, give them basic skills to ewar, guns, mwd, and other mods and let them use it right away. Fun from the first login.

They'll need to skill to get better but they right away see how to do what they chose to in Eve.


This is the right way to go, some very basic skills out the box so a player can do something in his/her 1st hours.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2015-07-02 12:39:28 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Rivr Luzade wrote:
They don't even know that "fast tackle" is, they can't even keep track of the ranges and functionality differences of the mods required for tackle.


You nail it (accidentally) here.

They don't know what it is, they don't know they need the mods.

Until they do need it. And 99% of the time as a newbie that is because they want to do something NOW, but cant. Because prerequisites they didn't know about stand in the way of basic T1 mods.

So they can't do what they wanted.

This is NOT how you treat new blood, not if you want them hooked.
Faeth Akachi
Perkone
Caldari State
#27 - 2015-07-02 12:48:27 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
They don't even know that "fast tackle" is, they can't even keep track of the ranges and functionality differences of the mods required for tackle.


You nail it (accidentally) here.

They don't know what it is, they don't know they need the mods.

Until they do need it. And 99% of the time as a newbie that is because they want to do something NOW, but cant. Because prerequisites they didn't know about stand in the way of basic T1 mods.

So they can't do what they wanted.

This is NOT how you treat new blood, not if you want them hooked.

That's exactly how I felt when I first started EVE. Everything I wanted to do, took at least 3 or 4 hours of sitting at the dock, waiting for me to be able to fit the modules. I didn't like it, and so I quit.

Then, couple years later, I started reading about EVE. Visiting Reddit, reading forums and so on. I actually returned back just a couple months ago, and I had like 800k SP. Now I've been making steady progress, since with those 800k SP I put on queue when I last logged in (before I quit), I could actually do some ratting and mining (I was useless in PVP).

YA YA SO NICE SO SMOOTH

Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#28 - 2015-07-02 12:50:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
So, basically what people need are these 1D 8H worth of SP in order to have fun? (However, only race specific: Amarr/Gallente get them for armor tanking, and Caldari/Minmatar for Shield tanking.)

This definition of "fun" is way to limited in my opinion, but then again the mental scope of many players in the age of Angry Bird and Farmville is as well.

Faeth Akachi wrote:
That's exactly how I felt when I first started EVE. Everything I wanted to do, took at least 3 or 4 hours of sitting at the dock, waiting for me to be able to fit the modules. I didn't like it, and so I quit.

Instead of sitting in the dock, you should have read/listened to/watched something about the activity you want to pursue. Or you should have talked to people to find out more about the game. Time flies (at least it did for me when I started the game) very quickly if you do that.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Aileen Morex
Morex Group Inc.
Haven.
#29 - 2015-07-02 12:52:43 UTC
Faeth Akachi wrote:
[quote=afkalt][quote=Rivr Luzade]
Then, couple years later, I started reading about EVE. Visiting Reddit, reading forums and so on. I actually returned back just a couple months ago, and I had like 800k SP. Now I've been making steady progress, since with those 800k SP I put on queue when I last logged in (before I quit), I could actually do some ratting and mining (I was useless in PVP).


When I started a new character had about a million skill points with a variety of skills depending on what race/bloodline you chose. That allowed a new character to do something and there were sites devoted to what to choose if you wanted to do certain things. Now you have no choice around your starting skills because you get nothing.
Fatal pewpew
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2015-07-02 12:55:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Fatal pewpew
Rivr Luzade wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Q: 'Starting skills are a huge barrier, can we give a lot more to new players'
A: Yes. But this is not a simple change. You guys seem fairly agreed that the small amount of starting skills, combined with a high amount of 'must have' support and requirement skills, leads to some really icky barriers to participation for new players. We are inclined to agree and we are in the process of laying out a plan to address the problem. Nothing is set in stone yet but it seems likely that we will try and move new players towards starting with significantly more SP. Maybe between 1 and 2 million. It also seems likely that we will probably avoid any major skill reworks or skill removals. As this plan solidifies you will hear more from us.

No, it does not lead to any barriers. How is 1D 10H an entry barrier to anything?




A day and a half is a HUGE barrier to a game for a new player.

If i go play wow or archeage and i pick the class i want to play the game doesn't start a timer saying you can play that class in 34 hours. more look at all the cool extra stuff you can unlock by playing.

A long training time to even sit in a half decent fully t1 frig and do ANYTHING is going to quickly diminish a players excitement for the game.


i know the first time i played i stopped bothering due to having to wait a few days to do what i wanted at even a beginning level.

Most people i know who started playing left and never came back for the same reason.

We can look back now and say "lol 2 days" but it really hurts the new player experience, you go from excited to play this new game to im going to go play "x game" very fast.

Starting off players with basic abilities is no harm, as you say "how is 1D 10H an entry barrier to anything?" well if you dont view it as a barrier why not start players off there in the first place?


You can talk out your ass about how dumb people are now and preach patience, i'm sure /r/iamverysmart would love to have you, but at the end of the day this is about the new player experience, its about how they feel, if you don't start caring about that on eve's 20th anniversary there will be a few thousand of us left huddled together talking **** about the new star citizen patch.
Niraia
Starcakes
Cynosural Field Theory.
#31 - 2015-07-02 12:56:05 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Q: 'Attributes aren't very interesting, you should remove them'
A: Again, we agree. ...


While you're at it, here are some other things that aren't very interesting:


  • Jump Fatigue
  • Ishtars having the ability to use sentries
  • Everything (inc. battleships) traveling with practically zero risk through lowsec with cloak+mwd
  • Warp Core Stabilizers
  • Roaming in anything except frigates and cruisers
  • New overview icons
  • Caldaris


Thanks <3

Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#32 - 2015-07-02 12:59:15 UTC
What do do with the +1 through +6 implants (I'm sure someone still has a +6 somewhere).

You have three options.

1) NPC turn in for isk (I'd run it about 5% UNDER the typical market order.
2) LP hand in
3) Reverse Engineer them to create pirate implants or other implants (bpc's for halo, slave, crystal, etc).
4) contest (similar to what you did with the Sleeper Blue loot).
5) Refund (they have a static cost, refund it).

There are options to this.

Yaay!!!!

Azami Nevinyrall
172.0.0.1
#33 - 2015-07-02 13:02:26 UTC
'Attributes aren't very interesting, you should remove them'. - True, but don't kill them, make them even across the board. Or remove them, Then rework learning implants to give a time multiplier on said attributes. Killing Implants would be bad for the economy and would kill ISK revenues for several players.

Starting SP should be bumped up a bit. A good mix of fitting, Frigate and weapons (frigate/weapons skill based on starting race.) skills to get any player off to a good start.

...

Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#34 - 2015-07-02 13:06:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Fatal pewpew wrote:
Starting off players with basic abilities is no harm, as you say "how is 1D 10H an entry barrier to anything?" well if you dont view it as a barrier why not start players off there in the first place?

Because it teaches the new players the most important lesson of EVE right from the start: Everything takes time and is supposed to take time. What you remove from the first hours in terms of waiting time and accustomizing to the waiting, you just push it back a couple of hours or days. And then it takes even longer to wait, causing just more frustration, which then results in ranting posts in this or other forums about removal of skills, speeding up of training or removal of training altogether. All for the sake of keeping people who are not interested in a long-term oriented gameplay but a quick, meaningless action fix.

Caring about them is not making things easier that do not ought to be easy, it is providing them with something to do while they wait. And this should be provided by other, more experienced players as well as CCP. Removing initial waiting for some skills to finish as slight barrier of entry, that is essential in so far as it teaches patience is important in this game, and during which you can learn a lot about the game and do not end up as yet another meat block in the grinder, is in my opinion not a proper approach. It is an easy approach, but not a proper approach; however, doing something the easy way seems to be the only maxime to follow these days. It just helps to hype the players only to let them loose into a game of boredom and nothing to do because either they cannot get something going or other players do not do something and rather sit in station.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Eli Porter
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#35 - 2015-07-02 13:11:47 UTC
Maybe it's time to expand the EVE sandbox to NPE and give veteran players better accessibility to new players. Let us welcome the new players, not some robotic tutorials that may become obsolete.

Direct players to corporations, give us a competition ground for newbie recruitment beyond "who's a more persistent recruiter in the newbie channels".

In the end it's us who turn trial players into subbed players, not tutorials. Share the load.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#36 - 2015-07-02 13:14:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Rivr Luzade wrote:
So, basically what people need are these 1D 8H worth of SP in order to have fun?


You continue to miss the point. Its not "1d 8h", it's "1d 8h for a veteran player who knows what to look for".

No one is advocating trying to cater that the 'instant gratification crowd' that shouldn't be catered to in EVE. We are talking about removing a useless barrier that turns off people who MIGHT become good EVE players if not for that tiny bit of stupidity at the beginning that has you sitting in a station for the 1st "1d 8h" (usually more).

I'm like a lot of people, I quit EVE after the 1st day, it was only the fact that a buddy kept bugging me to play with him that i came back after a couple weeks. With his help i trained up a rifter, we went to low sec, i got blown up by a Brutix (guy gave me my loot back) and i was hooked for these last 8 years.

But it wouldn't have happened without that nagging buddy, the idea now is to make the NPE work for people who are sans nagging buddy.
Amber Harrington
Rookie Ants
#37 - 2015-07-02 13:17:02 UTC
Implants are the bonus to the game. Not everyone uses them, those who do should have an advantage for being , well, brave. By removing the implants you're going to touch one of the core principles of EVE: risk means isk.

(that is, theoretical core principles. Incursions and lvl 4 missions being better than nullsec ratting are a cancer)
Anthar Thebess
#38 - 2015-07-02 13:17:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
New players , create charactes by a template they choose ( maybe by bloodline / school ).
Something like :

Warrior :
- lvl 5 race specific frigate , lvl 5 race specfic weapon , basic support skills lvl 3-4
( character that still need to train for few days to get T2 guns or T2 ship)

Industrialist :
- lvl 5 race specific indy ship, lvl 5 industry , research and some support skills ( don't know much about industry)

Miner :
- lvl 5 mining frigate , lvl 5 mining laser , some support skills ( don't know much about mining)

Scout :
- lvl 5 race specific frigate , Cloak lvl 4 , astronometrics and basic support skills

Some support character A Lol :
- lvl 5 race specific frigate , remote reps and and basic support skills

Some support character B Lol :
- lvl 5 race specific frigate , Ewar and basic support skills

This only apply to 1st character on the account ( if there is no characters on the account first created will get this kind of boost).


How people will abuse it :
- ganking , much easier to create destroyer ganking alt ( still new players are more important , and they need to have access to destroyers)
- cyno alts - but this can be very easy to fix , by adding some additional skill requirements needed to inject the cyno skillbook ( this will also make current cyno alts unaffected).


Learning Implants.
1 .Remove the bonus for the learning , from all T2 / faction implants.
2. Remove all pure learning implants.
3. Create new modules and items that will compensate the ISK sink , and LP sink those items provided.

This can be even to increase the viability of some LP stores, currently the same +4 implant you can buy from Caldari and from Gallente faction.

Why T1 implants cannot be faction specific , and like T2 implants cannot provide set bonuses.

Summarizing all installed implants (# is variable):

Caldari +# Set
Missile speed increased by #
Missile EHP incresed by 4x#

Full set implant ( all 5 implants)
# increase to all missile damage




Gallente+# Set
Drone speed increased by #
Drone control range increased by 2x# KM

Full set implant ( all 5 implants)
# increase to all drone EHP



I know that those are bad examples Big smile but it is about approach combined with new faction modules can fill the gap after removing need of learning implants in eve economy.





Now the most important change CCP needs to implement : remove the smart way the ability to abuse buddy accounts!
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2015-07-02 13:18:09 UTC
I would like to chime in on rookie skills, you should look at the bonuses that are presented on the rookie ships. Give newbros the skills to actually use the bonuses on there ships.
I am not my PC do I don't recall what they are off hand. But it would be a great step towards NPE skill improvement.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2015-07-02 13:19:32 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
No, they should be taught improvement comes with time.

The difference between "can use poorly" vs "cannot use at all" is simply massive.


Let's take a common example. MAPC.


Typical newbie chat:

"Hey how do I get more power"
>"Train up skills but in the meantime you can fit a micro auxiliary power core"
"Sweet, thanks man"

Newbie scoots off to buy MAPC so they can online the booster/prop mod/whatever.

Newbie can't even fit the thing because it's behind a 2 hour train. Being a newbie they're almost certainly not even going to know to check skill prereqs.

Newbie then either a) flies a half fit shitfit (what a great experience) or b) does "something else" whilst it trains.

That something else is not eve, because although the sandbox is huge, they're newbies and they CANT DO MUCH by very definition.

Too many vets forget the new days. Too many people train the likes of JDC V and advise folks "do something else whilst you wait" forgetting that the newbies don't have the skills to "kill time" whilst they wait.


You want a NPE where people can sample everything eve has to offer, without waiting. You want them to think, "Bugger me this is good fun, I'm really enjoying X I'll spend the time to improve it!" You do NOT want them sitting for a period waiting to TRY something they may not even like.

People get terribly scared of "instant gratification" but tell me...think back to the first time you unlocked a new ship class and are level 1 skilled. Did you fire out in it right away thinking you're all that? Of course not - the elation comes from getting it to level 4 or 5 and being GOOD with it. You can sit in it, you can take it for test spins, you can already feel the potential and it's exciting but it drives you to train it higher. What you want fore newbros is to lift that "hang time" whilst they get the basic junk trained. You want them to get the excitement about the POTENTIAL of the game right away.

People who are excited and are able to dive into a game feet first are going to worry less about a time to train because progression is different from barrier.

I want newbies in rifters with meta kit tearing up the skies wholesale. I want them to be able to do it from the second they are born.