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[Aegis] More balance! - Ishtars, DDAs and the Tempest

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Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#561 - 2015-06-27 06:17:03 UTC
Alyxportur wrote:
Quote:
The problem: Ishtars are too good. They are squashing out diversity in several environments because of their excellent damage projection and solid survivability

Source: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/balance-changes-coming-in-scylla/


The fact that the change brought with this article didn't change the ships' projection (a sentry was nerfed but it was for all sentry boat, not just to problem ship according to that very post) or it's survivability.

Why this statement didn't lead to either hacking away at the opti + tracking combo bonus and/or a nerf to it's survivability (like increased base sigs for example) is really making my head spin.
Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#562 - 2015-06-27 11:38:34 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
One more post for the Aegis release covering a couple more small balance changes.

First of all, the Ishtar. In our ongoing to quest to find out exactly what it will take to move the Ishtar off its throne as the most dominant PVP ship in EVE, we are going to make the following changes:
  • -1 mid slot, +1 low slot
  • Decrease in mass from 1,100,000 to 1060000
  • Decrease in max velocity from 185m/s to 175m/s
  • Agility going from .52 to .565
  • Power grid lowered from 780 to 740

    • Overall these changes should put a lot of pressure on speed based, shield fits (especially those using over-sized afterburners), forcing a tougher choice between the speed you get with shields and the survivability you get with armor.

    Next up, Drone Damage Amplifiers. While the Ishtar has really taken the spotlight as the most oppressive ship around, drone focused hulls are extremely strong across the board. From the Algos and the Tristan, to the Vexor and the Gila, to the Dominix and the Armageddon we see higher damage output and activity than the competition. For that reason we are going to lower the % damage bonus from DDA's just slightly. Numbers as follows:

    Drone Damage Amplifier I - 15% (was 16%)
    Drone Damage Amplifier II - 20.5% (was 23%)

    Dread Guristas Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%)
    Federation Navy Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%)
    Imperial Navy Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%)
    Sentient Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%)

    Unit D-34343's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 24.5% (was (26.5%)
    Unit F-435454's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 25.15% (was 27.15%)
    Unit P-343554's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 25.8% (was 27.8%)
    Unit W-634's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 26.5% (was 28.5%)


    And let's finish on a high note, the Tempest! We are looking at a wider set of Battleship and Battlecruiser tweaks that will probably come in a later release but part of the package was a Tempest buff and we see no reason to hold back on that while we pin down the rest of the changes.

    We are changing the Tempest's bonus to rate of fire from 5% to 7.5% per level.

    Will the Ishtar be balanced after this? Is the Drone Damage Amp nerf too much? What will you do with a 950 turret dps Tempest? Let us know!

    Now that shield Ishtars are getting their justly deserved kick in the nads, I'm tempted to do something radical... and train Heavy Assault Cruisers Level I Cool

    Armour Ishtar \0/

    (though, I still maintain you should still port some shield hp's across into armour...)

    War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293
    Aplysia Vejun
    Children of Agasul
    #563 - 2015-06-27 11:45:49 UTC
    Gabriel Karade wrote:

    Armour Ishtar \0/

    (though, I still maintain you should still port some shield hp's across into armour...)

    It lacks speed and pgen for a good armor brawler
    Phaade
    ATRAX.
    Shadow Cartel
    #564 - 2015-06-27 17:12:36 UTC
    Irya Boone wrote:
    So you are nerfing DDA now and buffing missiles ? So we must all swap to caldari ships for pvp?

    you have a problem with understanding your game and how people play the game , I don't know how you read your datas and how you retrieve them from the game , but you really should play a little bit more your own game

    So i suppose that after the realease of the hecate you gonna nerf small railgun too?



    You clearly have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

    These changes did not go far enough. Not even close.
    Phaade
    ATRAX.
    Shadow Cartel
    #565 - 2015-06-27 17:22:37 UTC
    Alexis Nightwish wrote:
    afkalt wrote:
    Irya Boone wrote:
    So you are nerfing DDA now and buffing missiles ? So we must all swap to caldari ships for pvp?

    you have a problem with understanding your game and how people play the game , I don't know how you read your datas and how you retrieve them from the game , but you really should play a little bit more your own game

    So i suppose that after the realease of the hecate you gonna nerf small railgun too?



    Nah, the missile buff was a bait and switch.

    Never not nerf caldari.

    To elaborate on what afk said, it's true missiles are getting application modules, but the rigs that we used to use for application will now be stacking penalized so you'll have to sacrifice one mid and/or low slot just to have the same application you do now.

    So are you going to drop tackle, tank (most missile boats are shield, and the Amarr ones have few mids), or DPS?

    It's lose-lose-lose, but CCP will call it a win. What?



    Ain't that the truth...

    But 5% less Ishtar damage will solve everything!!
    Phaade
    ATRAX.
    Shadow Cartel
    #566 - 2015-06-27 17:26:44 UTC
    Aplysia Vejun wrote:
    Gabriel Karade wrote:

    Armour Ishtar \0/

    (though, I still maintain you should still port some shield hp's across into armour...)

    It lacks speed and pgen for a good armor brawler


    Neuts, heavy drones, cap booster, dual rep...

    You must be joking.
    Umino Iruka
    #567 - 2015-06-27 20:14:52 UTC
    I swear these "balance" changes remind me of one thing only:

    http://giphy.com/gifs/5Zesu5VPNGJlm

    It's not all bad because the "random generator to current problems" button did yield the tempest buff as well - not quite what it should be, but it's a start...
    Kitty Bear
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #568 - 2015-06-27 23:50:42 UTC
    Umino Iruka wrote:
    I swear these "balance" changes remind me of one thing only:



    I was thinking more this
    TheSylance
    Enchanted Minds
    #569 - 2015-06-27 23:59:18 UTC
    Will the "Tempest Fleet Issue" recieve the increased firerate too?
    Cause otherwise it will be weaker than the normal one.
    Compare here
    Atomeon
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #570 - 2015-06-28 01:12:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Atomeon
    TheSylance wrote:
    Will the "Tempest Fleet Issue" recieve the increased firerate too?
    Cause otherwise it will be weaker than the normal one.
    Compare here

    Dont complain, enjoy it... while it lasts P
    FT Diomedes
    The Graduates
    #571 - 2015-06-28 03:21:59 UTC
    TheSylance wrote:
    Will the "Tempest Fleet Issue" recieve the increased firerate too?
    Cause otherwise it will be weaker than the normal one.
    Compare here


    Because paper DPS is the only stat that matters, right?

    CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

    Feffri
    Dead's Prostitutes
    The Initiative.
    #572 - 2015-06-28 05:50:26 UTC
    i agree with the posts that ccp is being completly idiotic with theses nerfs. YOUVE HEARD IT A MILLION TIMES... THE PROBLEM IS WITH THE ISHTAR!!!! AND SENTRIES!!! NOT DRONES OR OTHER DRONE BOATS.

    So yah stop being a bunch of retards and nerf the ishtar and it's use of sentries.

    On another note I think that sentries need a counter and scripted ecm would be awesome for this.

    Basically you made ECM worthless cause people hate being out of the fight entirely. However I propose this.

    1. There should be two ecm scripts 1 that breaks the ships lock with drones and either hits all the time or has super high chance to hit (this is obviously open to discussion) and the second script shoudl be double the chance to hit but only breaks lock like ecm burst. Where lock can immidiatly begin to be regained. This would allow for better e war fare with jams and sensor damps...

    2. when a drone ship loses lock through ecm or through getting damped the drones shut down and stop flying and shooting. This should be done now!

    3. counters to e war should be something like 50% stronger.. so that if you give up mids or utility to counter it is stronger ( double may be too strong also debatable)

    Discuss
    Cobra Shikkoken
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #573 - 2015-06-28 11:11:35 UTC
    Damn! I spent 3-4 mounth of life learning Ishtar, and its nerfed twice.
    before it i have learned up to 5 (2 battleship skills) Rattlesnake , thay nerfed them for less firepower against gangster frigetes. just left bonus for heavy and senrty drones, also nerfed sentryes. Is tte CCP watching me ? Now im finishing learn the Sin - guys this one ll be nerfed soon Big smile
    Cobra Shikkoken
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #574 - 2015-06-28 11:20:39 UTC
    You say that Ishtar too dressed in the fleet hits from far away. Is it possible to nerf it only for fleets? And leave bonuses for solo runners. For example solo agents or in DED zones give bonuses which act only in these areas.
    Panther X
    Destructive Influence
    Northern Coalition.
    #575 - 2015-06-28 12:10:33 UTC
    Midori Tsu wrote:
    Bienator II wrote:
    have you considered splitting the dps bonus into dps+rof bonus like all other damage mods do? I guess thats also the reason why the DDAs have those non integer dps boost values.

    one of the reasons why ships like the worm are so silly in frig fights is because of the insane alpha. On paper they would project worse than an algos, but IF worm drones hit the frig is half dead - no time to rep against that.


    due to ~legacy code~ you can't change the drone rof, only damage.


    is that the excuse they are using again?

    My Titan smells of rich Corinthian Leather...
    Panther X
    Destructive Influence
    Northern Coalition.
    #576 - 2015-06-28 12:13:57 UTC
    Daniela Doran wrote:
    Masao Kurata wrote:
    This works out to a 2.0%/3.8%/5%/5.6% reduction in DPS for 1/2/3/4 DDA2s and 1.6%/3.0%/4.0%/4.5% for 1/2/3/4 faction DDAs or to put it in terms of base dps, 2.5%/5,6%/8.4%/10% and 2%/4.6%/7.0%/8.5% for faction. Very reasonable change, it may even need a second helping in a patch or two.

    The Ishtar slot change I'm not so keen on, the flexibility of fitting options afforded by its layout was part of its unique flavour.


    Agreed, it was the only good Gallente ship that could shield tank and that was what really made the Ishtar a cool, fun and flexible ship to fly. By no means did the 5/5/5 slot layout make the Ishtar OP, It was plain and simple it's ability to use BS caliber weapons without cap or fitting restraints.

    And now it appears CCP is taking that uniqueness away from the Ishtar and turning it into another (yawn) armor tank Gallente ship. I'm starting to get the feeling that CCP has no idea what they're doing when it comes to balancing this ship. I believe that it's only a matter of time for this controversial ship that caused more of a dilemma then any other ship in the history of eve , to end up being long forgotten in the realm of Oblivion (courtesy of CCP of course).



    what makes you think they have had any idea so far?

    EVERY change has screwed every ship. In the name of balance i strike at thee!

    My Titan smells of rich Corinthian Leather...
    Panther X
    Destructive Influence
    Northern Coalition.
    #577 - 2015-06-28 12:22:23 UTC
    Daniela Doran wrote:
    Altrue wrote:
    CCP Rise wrote:
    This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size.


    I don't think people are asking for Ishtars to be unable to use sentries.

    Most people are asking for the removal of sentries bonuses on them. You know, the +25% damage, AND the +25% hitpoints, AND the +25% tracking, AND the +25% optimal.

    They would still be able to use sentries, but their stats would be more in-line with their actual balanced state.


    Nope that's not it. They should keep 10% to drone damage and hit points as they did before and just introduce medium sentry drones.

    yeah that will do it...introducing new mods/guns/drones/what have you just to address the already OP meta... cough cough DDA/OTL etc.
    No, Ishtars DO need to be axed from the ability to use battleship class drones.
    Sentries are a battleship weapons platform. You want to balance them? Give the other cruisers the ability to use large guns/launchers while maintaining agility and survive-ability.

    Didn't think so.

    Either change the bandwidth required to use sentries, or class restrict them. Ishtars fixed.
    Stop fiddle f'ing around with dumb solutions that screw everything else.

    My Titan smells of rich Corinthian Leather...
    Nafensoriel
    Brutor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #578 - 2015-06-28 13:57:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Nafensoriel
    Just playing devils advocate here but...

    Heavy drones are also battleship classed drones.

    Asking for the removal of "battleship classed drones" from a "cruiser sized platform" might not quite get the result you want.

    Additionally rise does have a point.. If they do it to one drone they are more likely to lock all drones. This means no more sentries for the VNI, Myrm, Prophacy, Vexor, Damnation, and Eos. It wouldn't make functional design or balance sense to remove sentries from ONE cruiser platform.

    Additionally once you've established that Large Drones only work on Battleships or above then you inadvertently establish that medium drones are Cruiser/BC and, more importantly, lights are limited to frigates and destroyers. Want to pretty much kill or drastically change the balance dynamics of all secondary weapon system drone using battleships in the game in a single move?
    Does the golem now get 5 heavy drones since it can no longer use 5 lights or do you buff it to use no drones at all?
    What about a drake? Does it now get 5 medium drones since that would now be its intended "drone size" ?

    Size locking drones becomes a very nasty bag of worms once opened. Sentry drones may be the root of the problem with the Ishtar(I personally think its the fact that its a brick in space WITH its damage projection) but can you honestly say that would be the "best" fit to fixing the game?
    Omnathious Deninard
    University of Caille
    Gallente Federation
    #579 - 2015-06-28 14:24:24 UTC
    I can put a single sentry drone on my Tristan, it now has a "battleship weapon" with a 10% tracking bonus also. Death to the Tristan 10% tracking buff.

    If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
    Mario Putzo
    #580 - 2015-06-28 16:22:18 UTC
    Nafensoriel wrote:
    Just playing devils advocate here but...

    Heavy drones are also battleship classed drones.

    Asking for the removal of "battleship classed drones" from a "cruiser sized platform" might not quite get the result you want.

    Additionally rise does have a point.. If they do it to one drone they are more likely to lock all drones. This means no more sentries for the VNI, Myrm, Prophacy, Vexor, Damnation, and Eos. It wouldn't make functional design or balance sense to remove sentries from ONE cruiser platform.

    Additionally once you've established that Large Drones only work on Battleships or above then you inadvertently establish that medium drones are Cruiser/BC and, more importantly, lights are limited to frigates and destroyers. Want to pretty much kill or drastically change the balance dynamics of all secondary weapon system drone using battleships in the game in a single move?
    Does the golem now get 5 heavy drones since it can no longer use 5 lights or do you buff it to use no drones at all?
    What about a drake? Does it now get 5 medium drones since that would now be its intended "drone size" ?

    Size locking drones becomes a very nasty bag of worms once opened. Sentry drones may be the root of the problem with the Ishtar(I personally think its the fact that its a brick in space WITH its damage projection) but can you honestly say that would be the "best" fit to fixing the game?


    Seems like an excessive amount of change for something that is as easy as changing "Bonus for Heavy and Sentry Drones" > Bonus for Medium Combat Drones. Still lets you use any sized drone you can fit, but you only get bonuses for drones that are size appropriate to you hull.


    Now for something different

    Why is there no drone boats with bonuses to EWAR drones? Seems like a missed opportunity to have a unique ship.