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[Aegis] More balance! - Ishtars, DDAs and the Tempest

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Athraws
Rising Thunder
#301 - 2015-06-23 05:23:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Athraws
Personally I feel a good move toward handling the situation is to simply swap the drone bays of the Ishtar and the Eos.

I think the Eos is extremely weak in its current form. It is crippled by a 250m3 drone bay (on a ship with extensive bonuses for heavy drones). Meanwhile, the Ishtar flits around battlefields, abandoning and dropping new sentries with near impunity.

If the Ishtar's bay was dropped to 250m3, and the Eos's buffed to 375m3, I believe this would be a step in the right direction.

This would reward players who wished to use the Eos in combat, as they would be better able to carry multiple flights of drones to adapt to their situation. The Ishtar, in turn, would lose some of it's staying power, forcing pilots who wanted to drop and abandon drones to make more difficult choices, a proper exchange for their power and projection.

To be frank, I think the entire roles of the Ishtar and Eos should be swapped, but that may be a bit more difficult. It would necessitate swapping the Ishtar's drone control range bonus for something more appropriate, and probably a deeper look into how the 'new' Eos would fit into the Ishtar's current role.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#302 - 2015-06-23 05:29:08 UTC
Drones are like bombs for being odd weapons. Their platforms are going to look weird, especially if you are going to keep touching the hull to adjust for the weapon, based on usage. I think you would need to make it a glass Dominix before you see the results you want. By that I mean 1/4 the EHP of a Dominix (or close to it) to compensate for the Ishtar's sig radius advantage.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Trajan Unknown
State War Academy
Caldari State
#303 - 2015-06-23 05:45:56 UTC
I don´t get why you CCP don´t remove sentries from everything below a fricking battlecruiser or maybe even battleship.
Let the Ishtard be a crazy strong droneboat just not with sentries. From what I have seen in these sentry slugfests speed was no problem neither was tank. You simply can´t reach the Ishtars at all in most cases. So even a slow less tanky Ishtar would be more or less the same as the one before.
Just listen to the people that understand the game pretty damn well and give you the right input - not talking about myself I am just re posting the stuff the people that know it tell every single time balance changes are discussed.
Madrax573
Doomheim
#304 - 2015-06-23 05:46:32 UTC
Why can drone ships with big bays and large bandwidth use 'up-sized' drones?

What other ships (Apart from bombers) effectively use up-sized weapon systems?

That is the problem. The Ishtar is built with the ability to use an unbalanced sized weapon system without any major downsides for doing so. It is inherently unbalanced and little tweaks here and there won't 'fix' it.
HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#305 - 2015-06-23 05:57:07 UTC
Phaade wrote:
Wow, it only took you 5 years to admit that drones and Ishtars are broken.

Wait for it.....




Wait for it.....


I ******* TOLD YOU SO.
Maybe they ignored you because the mod they're nerfing isn't five years old.
Fenrir Hammer
Amish Tobacco Plantation Co.
#306 - 2015-06-23 06:06:27 UTC
I agree with the ishtar nerf but I really have a hard time likeing the DDA nerf.

I dont think a whole weapon system wide nerf is good. Maybe tone down the DDA nerf?

Maybe just nerf t2 DDA ans keep the other meta levels the same. I mean that would give a more incentive to use faction mods and who doesnt like dank kill mails.
Viruk Johnny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#307 - 2015-06-23 06:31:45 UTC
Madrax573 wrote:
Why can drone ships with big bays and large bandwidth use 'up-sized' drones?

What other ships (Apart from bombers) effectively use up-sized weapon systems?

That is the problem. The Ishtar is built with the ability to use an unbalanced sized weapon system without any major downsides for doing so. It is inherently unbalanced and little tweaks here and there won't 'fix' it.


T3 Battlecruisers.
Maded Rift
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#308 - 2015-06-23 06:47:04 UTC
Hey guys.

Just a few thoughts....

I agree with weapon size in relation to hull size arguments, but i also think that rise has a very valid point..

The good thing about sents is that they have a powerful Insta DPS application at lots of ranges, rather than waiting 20 seconds for flighted drones to reach their target.

You dont want to loose this right? ok well instead of nerfing the very very slightly overpowered BS sized weapon system in BS size hulls.

Have small medium and large sentry size class's

Without doing the maths i feel that this would be easier to tweak for different hull size class's without the unintended side effect of nerfing everything that uses the same weapon systems.


i would also like to point out, that the domi and geddon are only used most because they can apply dps and use nuets making them good vs caps and good vs most sub caps. nerfing sents or dda's will not make them go away or be used less.

Try the approach of making the meta/hulls/mods that we dont use match with the stuff we do like to use you will find you get a better reception from your player base and nerfing will become a word of the past.

simple: make the crappy things better not make the good things worse.

Fish...That is all.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#309 - 2015-06-23 06:49:41 UTC
Zekora Rally
U2EZ
#310 - 2015-06-23 06:49:44 UTC
OMG!!! My pest has been revived!!! Nano pest fleet after this patch goes live.!!Cool
Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#311 - 2015-06-23 06:58:10 UTC
I personally welcome the slot layout change on the Ishtar, dare I say thank you for the buff?!

Even with the DDA nerf, as of right now I don't have room for one, with this change I can bring back my dps slightly above 400 with a nice tank, thank you CCP.
Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
Affirmative.
#312 - 2015-06-23 07:16:50 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Alexander McKeon wrote:
Rise, I believe at this point that you're deliberately missing the root cause of the problem: the Ishtar breaks the rule regarding size-appropriate weapons on hulls. Sentry drones are fundamentally a battleship-sized weapon system, and aren't game-breaking when used on such; perhaps in need of tuning like the DDA effectiveness reduction, but that's all. The combination of cruiser-class signature and speed, T2 resists (remember that no T2 battleships are viable for fleet combat) and the long-range projection of sentries are what push the Ishtar over the top in combat situations.

For whatever it might be worth, making the Ishtar into an improved version of the VNI, with fast enough drone travel times to be useful, seems a more practical situation, and allows for fleets deploying heavy smartbomb contingents to be an effective counter.


This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size.

How about something like Bandwidth Nerfs?
Frigates max out at 25
Destroyers max out at 30
Cruisers max out at 50
Battlecruisers max out at 75
Battleships max out at 100

With the exception of Gallente/Amarr Bonused Hulls that max out at 25 above this, and T2 Hulls max out at 15 above this, making something like the Ishtar max out at 50+25+15 = 90, giving it a max of 3 Sentry or Heavy, 1 Medium and 1 Light in space

I believe most ships already are something close to this.
Aplysia Vejun
Children of Agasul
#313 - 2015-06-23 07:23:59 UTC
@caldari5

An absurdely slow, low damage ship with easely killable weapons? No, that's not balance at all.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#314 - 2015-06-23 07:40:01 UTC
Aplysia Vejun wrote:
@caldari5

An absurdely slow, low damage ship with easely killable weapons? No, that's not balance at all.

Ishtar getting the BC treatment? Only a matter of time, though at this rate, could be a very long time.

Oh god.
Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
Affirmative.
#315 - 2015-06-23 07:40:46 UTC
Aplysia Vejun wrote:
@caldari5

An absurdely slow, low damage ship with easely killable weapons? No, that's not balance at all.

Don't forget that the bonused ships normally have a much Larger Drone bay to account for the weapons being killable, with a 90 bandwidth and the existing drone bay, you would have enough space for 4 and bit full flights of drones, if you survive an encounter long enough to go through ALL 4 sets of drones you probably weren't meant to win anyways lol

Heck I would even support nerfing the bandwidth and buffing the drone bay size so that it could hold 5 full flights.
Bonzair
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#316 - 2015-06-23 08:11:05 UTC
I hope that all your creative team will be fired. Sad that it can be after dying of the project. Idiots.
To mare
Advanced Technology
#317 - 2015-06-23 08:14:51 UTC
judging from all the people crying about this pass it seems that CCP finally hit the right spot this time
Anthar Thebess
#318 - 2015-06-23 08:15:01 UTC
Drone boats will get huge nerf on this DDA nerf.
Problem is in ishtar, removing med slot - NICE!

Wy we cannot go different way?
Instead of nerfing DDA , buff gyros/ heat sinks/ etc.

Gun boats will deal more damage - all of them.
More things will be dying , and we will get second important change - more logistic ships needed in a fleet , so nerf to fleet logistics.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Aldjor Dayman
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#319 - 2015-06-23 08:29:52 UTC
Just remove the sentries and make them use heavies. Boom, job done.
Adriana Shi
Deadspace Corp.
#320 - 2015-06-23 08:33:44 UTC
Alexander McKeon wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size.
And every single one of those hulls gets a generic bonus applying to all drone types, EXCEPT the Ishtar. It is also notable that only the VNI & Ishtar have what could be called a 'projection' bonus, though the VNI just gets drones to you faster. Sentries on sub-battleship hulls are fine. Sentries with bonused optimal range and tracking on those hull sizes are not balanced, and you won't find that on any of the drone boats you mentioned save this one.

Vexor: +50% damage & HP
Myrmidon: +50% damage & HP
Eos: +50% Damage & HP
Tristan: +50% HP & Tracking speed (Only has bandwidth for a flight of lights, two mediums, or one heavy)
VNI: +50% Drone HP/damage, +25% Max Velocity & Tracking

Ishtar: +25% Sentry HP & Damage, +50% HP/Damage other drones, +37.5% Heavy Drone max velocity & tracking
+25% Sentry drone optimal range & tracking speed, +25km to drone operation range.

Only one of these drone ships has a bonus to damage projection (which is important for sentries) and gets a bonus to drone control range, requiring fewer fitting compromises in order to kill a target 100km away. No other ship listed here can sit at such a range from their target while making as few fitting compromises as the Ishtar to get their drones working so far away, nor has the drone bandwidth / bay to deploy three full flights of sentries.

The Ishtar is uniquely able amongst sub-battleship hulls to deploy sentry drones which are effective at long engagement ranges, control them from such a range, and carry enough drones to be effective over a sustained engagement. These things are why the Ishtar is broken. Remove the sentry application bonuses, keep the sentry DPS buff at +25%, and you'll find a much more balanced hull.


This Alllllll of this!

imo its not Shield Tar's that are broken or fast tar's that are... its the fact it can wield 5 sents and lulz at you 100+k away
that extra omni for Traits anyone?
i hope you realize CCP, You're killing the shield tar pretty hard here i know Gallent isn't really supposed to be shields but its nice to have more then 1 line of shield drone boats ie Gurista's. Shield domi isn't good, Shield Myrm? LULZ
Also you realize you just made another VNI with that slot change?
So honestly unless you're planning on Adding more shield drone boats i think this is a bad call.