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[Aegis] More balance! - Ishtars, DDAs and the Tempest

First post First post First post
Author
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#161 - 2015-06-22 17:31:35 UTC
Suitonia wrote:
Jackie Fisher wrote:
Problem: Ishtar
Solution: Nerf everything!

Just as well you guys didn't chose medicine as a career:
Patient: I've got an ingrowing toenail
Dr CCP : No problem, we'll just amputate both legs, hmm, better take the arms as well just to be safe. Not sure you really need two eyes either


The vast majority of drone ships in the game are very strong, and will continue to be after these changes.


pretty much ..

My Gila does around 900 dps out to 60km
(100 missile dps to 30km)

4x rlml
3x LSE
2x Hardener
1x 10mn AB
3x DDA
1x Shield Relay
3x Shield Extenders

My Tengu does somewhere between 550 & 650 dps out to 70km
(at work so no game/fitting tool access)

6x HML
1x Medium Shield Recharger
1x Shield Booster
2x Hardener
1x 10mn AB
1x Target Painter
4x BCU
3x CCC

Its been that long since I flew a Cerberus that I cant remember how much damage it did,
but fairly sure it was in the 400-450 dps range

I can currently fit an Ishtar for shield or armour tank, and get double the DPS that the Cerberus does

So the -mid, +Low to the Ishtar is definitely a move in the right direction
Destoya
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#162 - 2015-06-22 17:31:59 UTC
Quote:
One more post for the Aegis release covering a couple more small balance changes.



Am I correct in assuming the combat BC changes are pushed back until the next release?
Mr Floydy
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#163 - 2015-06-22 17:32:00 UTC
DDA Nerf seems over the top since you are targeting the Ishtar as the issue.
It's as silly as nerfing heavy missiles massively because the Drake and Tengu are too powerful. Oh wait... :/

Surely it would be better to leave DDAs as they are for now, keep this to the Ishtar and see how it plays out? You can then tweak things a little more if need be at a later date.
Porcelina
Evil Young Flesh
#164 - 2015-06-22 17:32:57 UTC
C'mon... this is nerfing PVE not PVP. If that is your goal, just say it please. If you really want to reduce the use in PVP, nerf sentries.

This looks like a stealth nerf to nullsec ratters to me. You are nerfing ALL drone ratters, while the effectiveness of the PVP ishtar is not changed at all.

Congratz on doing things completely wrong.
BadAssMcKill
Aliastra
#165 - 2015-06-22 17:33:31 UTC
What will you do with a 950 turret dps Tempest?

Get bombed probably
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#166 - 2015-06-22 17:34:20 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Alexander McKeon wrote:
Rise, I believe at this point that you're deliberately missing the root cause of the problem: the Ishtar breaks the rule regarding size-appropriate weapons on hulls. Sentry drones are fundamentally a battleship-sized weapon system, and aren't game-breaking when used on such; perhaps in need of tuning like the DDA effectiveness reduction, but that's all. The combination of cruiser-class signature and speed, T2 resists (remember that no T2 battleships are viable for fleet combat) and the long-range projection of sentries are what push the Ishtar over the top in combat situations.

For whatever it might be worth, making the Ishtar into an improved version of the VNI, with fast enough drone travel times to be useful, seems a more practical situation, and allows for fleets deploying heavy smartbomb contingents to be an effective counter.


This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size.


Distinct and consistent are not balancing factors. They are design goals. It might be cool, but so were AoE doomdays fired through jump portals. How did that work out? What about cruise missile bombers and nano-ravens? I hear those were pretty cool.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make about the ability for drone boats to use BS-sized drones vs everyone being able to use lower size category weapons. All ships are able to use smaller sized weapons because those weapons use less fitting resources, drone ships included. If you're a frigate and encounter them you might get a nasty surprise. But when a cruiser opens up and vaporizes a BS in 20 seconds under conditions that supposedly favor the BS while taking negligible damage itself, that's OP.

Remember when ABCs (formerly tier 3 BCs) were released for testing on Sisi? I sure do. Remember the missile Naga? I know you do. You changed it from a missile ship to a hybrid ship because having 8 over-sized missile launchers was deemed too OP! Something about 1000 dps at medium/long range with decent application on a super-mobile skirmish platform that hauled ass. Wait. Why does that sound so familiar?

Difference is that the Naga doesn't have T2 resists. Nor does it have the kind of application bonuses the Ishtar has. And you nerfed its mobility (along with the Tornado, Oracle, and Talos) after release because over-sized weapons plus mobility was deemed too OP.

So on to the actual changes. Seems to me that in exchange for losing some buffer I can either fit a nanofiber and go faster, or I can fit an OTE and apply damage better at longer range. Just what the Ishtar needs. Better damage application and more range.

Well, maybe they will actually die now. Not holding my breath.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#167 - 2015-06-22 17:36:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitch Kaneland
For the people saying to remove semtries. Its not a "simple" fix to remove sentries. Each race has a long range turret/launcher HAC that works well in fleets and has limited utility (drones, mids, utility high, speed). They are the Zealot, Muninn, Eagle, and Ishtar. All of these ships are slower than the other HAC (vaga, deimos, cerb). The sac is both i suppose since its a smidge slower than zealot, but has drones and good slot layout, so is a bit more self-sufficient.

If you remove sentries from ishtar, they have no projection, neutering the role and leaving gal without a proper ranged ship. Im all for ishtar nerfs, but straight removing its projection is silly. A rail deimos will not have the range of an ishtar. Which is good, but will again create a hole CCP will need to revisit.

I think tuning DDAs will help. Its a newer mod that was too strong. I agree that most drone ships in the same class are a bit too powerful.
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#168 - 2015-06-22 17:37:11 UTC
+1 on tempest changes

+1 on DDA changes

-1 on ishtar change - NOT FAR ENOUGH

Cut ishtar more please. As it is, ishtar still projects a wall of death around it in a 70km radius. Sentries track too well, cant even approach the ishtar without being pelted by fire - I speak as an experienced orthrus pilot.

Its not even the ishtar per se, its the insane range and tracking on sentries, that ishtar just amplifies.
Aplysia Vejun
Children of Agasul
#169 - 2015-06-22 17:38:48 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
But when a cruiser opens up and vaporizes a BS in 20 seconds under conditions that supposedly favor the BS while taking negligible damage itself, that's OP.

Can i have this cruiser?
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#170 - 2015-06-22 17:42:09 UTC
Wrik Hoover wrote:
not ok

do you know why everyone and his mother flys ishtars ?
Because you sit at 70km **** out dps and when you lose more then 2 isthars you just run away and no one can ever stop you

remove the 5% dmg sentry bonus on the ishtar instead


yeah it seems like this is more of a PVE nerf then a pvp nerf...

TECH II IS SUPPOSED TO BE SPECIALIZED! Make the ISHTAR into a specialized heavy drone ship...

I read an interesting idea...

just refocus the bonus on the ship away from sentires:

Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level):
10% to medium, and heavy drone tracking speed
10% bonus to light, Medium, and Heaby drone hit points
15% bonus to Medium, and Heavy Drone damage

Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level):
5000m bonus to Drone operation range
30 N Thrust for drones per level

Role Bonus:
50% reduction in Microwarpdrive signature radius penalty

250 drone bay

100mb


This will turn the ishtar into a full fledged heavy ship for pve and a medium drone ship for pvp.

with 4 heavies you will get 7 drone damage thats half a drone less then now but you also get a better tracking bonus,

Also for pvp 8.75 eq mediums with that tracking bonus will be pretty awesome.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Mercenary Coalition
#171 - 2015-06-22 17:42:20 UTC
Aplysia Vejun wrote:
Soldarius wrote:
But when a cruiser opens up and vaporizes a BS in 20 seconds under conditions that supposedly favor the BS while taking negligible damage itself, that's OP.

Can i have this cruiser?

Heavy Drone Isthar and Gila if fitted and flown right (I've seen both good and bad Gilas already).

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Desudes
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#172 - 2015-06-22 17:42:33 UTC
literally going to be moving at drake speeds, gj rise

Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu?

MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#173 - 2015-06-22 17:44:53 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Dez Affinity wrote:
You guys don't have a clue what you're doing. You're just playing whack a mole until you get the desired results.


Whack an Ishtar.



ccp rise is bad at whacking... tried to whack the ishtar ended up whacking all drones ships and leaving the ishtar untouched...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#174 - 2015-06-22 17:46:08 UTC
Mr Floydy wrote:
DDA Nerf seems over the top since you are targeting the Ishtar as the issue.
It's as silly as nerfing heavy missiles massively because the Drake and Tengu are too powerful. Oh wait... :/

Surely it would be better to leave DDAs as they are for now, keep this to the Ishtar and see how it plays out? You can then tweak things a little more if need be at a later date.


Or nerfing TE because the shield blaster talos was too strong? Putting acs in worse shape since they were balanced around TE? CCP does have a history of doing this sometimes.

DDAs are lil different though.. DDAs/drones are actually fairly strong and most drone ships are strong as well. Unlike TEs which were targeted because of a few edge cases and nerfed which ruined an entire weapon system.
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#175 - 2015-06-22 17:47:04 UTC
Stop Nerfing Drones. Nerf the OP Ships. DDA's aren't OP. Not even close.
This is as bad as the last Sentry nerf, which once again did nothing except to make it so you HAVE to use Sentries on a Bonused Hull, and the Bonused Hulls are the ones that are silly OP.
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
#176 - 2015-06-22 17:47:41 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
ccp rise is bad at whacking... tried to whack the Ishtar ended up whacking all drones ships
But then
wrote:
leaving the Ishtar untouched...

This doesn't seem possible.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Aplysia Vejun
Children of Agasul
#177 - 2015-06-22 17:49:55 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Aplysia Vejun wrote:
Soldarius wrote:
But when a cruiser opens up and vaporizes a BS in 20 seconds under conditions that supposedly favor the BS while taking negligible damage itself, that's OP.

Can i have this cruiser?

Heavy Drone Isthar and Gila if fitted and flown right (I've seen both good and bad Gilas already).

so... those Ishtars and Gilas had 5'000 dps? (assuming a nearly untanked 100k hp BS)
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#178 - 2015-06-22 17:50:40 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
ccp rise is bad at whacking... tried to whack the Ishtar ended up whacking all drones ships
But then
wrote:
leaving the Ishtar untouched...

This doesn't seem possible.


ishtar is dominate due to its sentries and range...

they pretty much left that untouched.

refocus the ishtar to a heavy drone ship... if you want to pigion hole it to armor... give it an armor repping bonus instead of drone activation range.


Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level):
10% bonus to Heavy Drone max velocity
10% bonus to Light, Medium, and Heavy Drone hit points and damage

Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level)
7.5% to armor repair amount per level
10% bonus to heavy drone tracking per level

Role Bonus:
50% reduction in Microwarpdrive signature radius penalty

4 high
4 mid
6 low

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Taram Caldar
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
#179 - 2015-06-22 17:53:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Taram Caldar
Wrik Hoover wrote:


remove the 5% dmg sentry bonus on the ishtar instead as well.


Fixed that for you....

However:
Love the tempest tweak. Very much needed. Is it going across all tempest hulls or JUST the tempest?

"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country.  He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."

ugly inside
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#180 - 2015-06-22 17:54:05 UTC
instead of smashing the ishtar and drones in general.. why dont we buff this guy?