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[New structures] Observatory Arrays and Gates

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Author
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#261 - 2015-03-31 13:31:32 UTC
Fredric Wolf wrote:
There is little to no risk of moving a stealth bomber into or around in null sec.

How do you counter drop on players that live in NPC null and do not live in that area only hurass from it?

I do not have a problem with people needed to go afk for what ever reason but I do have a problem with people that use afk as a valid form of area denial.

I welcome more targets living closer to us that actually live in their space. I think you are misunderstanding mine and Nikk Narrel view on this. I think there should be cloaky ship in and around our area. I just think they need to relook at some of the ships and change how they work. I also think there needs to be some way for people to interact with cloaked ships. Anything in space should be a valid target.

Sorry Nikk if we are not seeing this in the same light.

We are close enough for agreement on many key points.

I am sitting on a vantage, of a possibly unique play interest.
I want to play both sides, at alternating times.

I really like mining. To me, it is not a means to an end where I get ISK to play the Real Game™.
I find it a zen like experience, and the idea another player might turn up to shoot at me is sheer awesome.
I feel frustrated when told I must comply with alliance doctrines, and avoid risking kills that would cause hostiles to return.
(The problem being popular perception does not portray this to be expected as a fair fight, but one where one side has overwhelming force in order to gank with)

I am also well versed in cloaking ships.
I do not find interest in AFK Cloaking, or bomber fleets, however.
I am either the scout, the smuggler, or the guerrilla fighter attacking behind enemy lines, targeting my PvE counterparts.
That last one, the guerrilla fighter? Kinda frustrated in knowing I can really only expect to catch unwary players who did not intend to be caught, or who reshipped into hulls that would overwhelm me in a 1 on 1 encounter.
(And by unwary, I mean unprepared for the encounter, and genuinely upset another player appeared)

As you may expect, understanding the above, I have a vested interest in seeing the whole null sec PvE vs Cloaking resolved in a balanced manner that preserves both sides.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#262 - 2015-03-31 14:30:05 UTC
Quote:
Observatory Arrays focus on intelligence gathering and disruption tools, like tampering with Star Map filters, D-scan disruption, ship intelligence disruption, player tracking capabilities or being able to pinpoint cloak users


What I would like to see from a fully upgraded observatory array that would allow the detection of non covert ops cloaked ships that are true AFK.

The idea is that tech I and tech II basic cloaks emit small levels of techyons... these techyons are able to be dected when a ship is cloaked for a certain amount of time.

I would say 30 min for tech I cloack and 1 hour for tech II

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Faren Shalni
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#263 - 2015-03-31 15:58:51 UTC
hey guys the afk clocking thread is that way ========> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=397030&find=unread

take you whining there

So Much Space

Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#264 - 2015-03-31 16:43:31 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Sharing an idea I heard on the Fanfest pub crawl Bear

A one way directional jump bridge module.

1. You fuel it up and get everyone within range
2. Pick a rough destination on the map, no cyno required
3. Click the button and launch the fleet into the unknown
4. Based on the distance travelling the fleet does not necessarily land in the system they were aiming for
5. The fleet itself may also be scattered out over a system or even constellation
6. Everyone gets some amount of jump fatigue of course
7. You have to slow boat / pod express back

Could be an interesting day tripping mechanic.

That would be frickin awesome, and what you really mean by a 7-step process is:

Step 1: Beer...
Step 2: Usual TS banter/BS
Step 3: ....Pissed
Step 4: "Guys GUYS GUYS!!! I've got a idea..."
Step 5: "UNPACK ZE JUMP BRIDGE!!!11" *insert* no stront/fuel/"FC can I bring my Drake?" type hysterics
Step 6: *Kamikaze Fleet*
Step 7: Wake up next morning in a random station with huge hangover and no idea what happened

Big smile

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293

MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#265 - 2015-03-31 17:43:06 UTC
Faren Shalni wrote:
hey guys the afk clocking thread is that way ========> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=397030&find=unread

take you whining there



okay then the discussion about the observatory array should be moved there also as one of its main functions is the detection of cloaked vessels...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Styphon the Black
Forced Euthanasia
#266 - 2015-03-31 19:01:20 UTC
If OAs only point is to detect AFK cloak campers that is a stupid idea. Just have it only do the intel functions and not uncloak players.There is a much easier way to stop AFK cloak campers. Just place a cloak time on all cloaks (timeframe ? 1-2 hours). When the timer runs out the cloak drops and the player can be scanned down just like normal. The way in which a cloaked player would keep his cloak engaged would be just to drop it and reactivate it. Which would reset the timer. This is the simplest solution.

AFK Cloak Camper problem solved without giving too much of an advantage to either side. Sure a player could be away from his computer for a set time and go back and reset the cloak. but that is fine. Same as a lot of miners. You could also say the player could set a macro and bot the cloak. However that is against the CCP rules and will get the player banded. Just like any other game cheat.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#267 - 2015-03-31 20:17:28 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Dr Farallon wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Dr Farallon wrote:
I think the emphasis is on being AFK and cloaked while camping a system. Cloaky camping should be low risk for the purposes of actively playing and reconnoitering a system or setting a trap. If, however, you are logged into a system and AFK for long periods of time you should suffer the same risks as the rest of us who are un-docked and actively playing. Anything otherwise, including the current AFK cloaking mechanics, are completely against what EVE Online is about.

Edit: I'm placing a lot of hope in the Observation Array fixing the horribly broken AFK cloaked camping mechanics.



Waffle. It's risk perfectly matches the reward the mechanics afford - that would be zero, for clarity. Should you choose to reward it further by allowing it to curtail your activities....that is your doing and yours alone.

Maybe you and your ilk are just not cut out for life outside empire.


I live exclusively outside of empire space, and I'm not terribly bothered by active scouts like Mordus Angles because at least they're actively playing the game. My problem is with players who sit in systems cloaked and afk for prolonged periods. For every problem in the game, there should be a solution, and not one that involves running away to the next system over or ignoring the threat. Any player in this game should be able to hunt down and destroy any other player who is negatively affecting his experience. I'm pretty sure entire EVE expansions were released around that principle.

If you're really scouting a system and at your keyboard I don't see what the problem is with hitting the re-cloak button every once in a while. Even miners, with as passive an activity as you can get in EVE, have to switch targets every once in a while. It's not much to ask for.

A cloaked player, especially one that's afk and not moving around, is essentially invulnerable and that goes against the very core of what EVE Online is about. There should be checks and balances in place to prevent that kind of gameplay. I'm hoping the Observation Array does exactly that.



What threat is an AFK player? The core of eve is a risk/reward balance. What reward do the game mechanics provide? Ratting in 1.0 with a noobship offers a greater reward.

Furthermore, how is a docked player any more vulnerable than a cloaked one? Do you want to force undocking periodically as well? The difference of course is you can go check - the problem is you're letting your own fear control you.

PLAYERS have created the "problem" with cloaky campers, CCP should NOT need to fix problems created by players risk aversity.


Edit: I mean, for goodness sakes, the insurance on a T1 BS is what...90-95+% of the hull cost (I just checked a domi - 203m insurance, sell orders in jita are 200m)? ONE anomaly and you're in free and clear profit. Who gives a crap if you lose the ship? Player attitudes need adjusting; not mechanics. Or, if you MUST use a multibillion ship to rat - take the appropriate precautions.
Dr Farallon
Moongoo Mining and Mixing
Goonswarm Federation
#268 - 2015-03-31 21:22:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Dr Farallon
afkalt wrote:
...words...


First and foremost, there should be a system of checks and balances to insure a fair gaming experience for all. For almost every action in EVE there is a way to counter that action. For every fit, there is a counter-fit. There is no counter, however, to a cloaked AFK player in a system. That player, for all intents and purposes, is invulnerable. Let me be clear: I'm talking about AFK cloakers, not active players who are performing recon or looking to set a trap. I'm talking solely about people who get into a system, cloak up for the purposes of harassing players in that system, and not actively playing the game.

Second, a threat is a threat. An AFK cloaker is akin to an unloaded gun being pointed at you. You don't know its unloaded. You might assume it is, but the fact is you don't know for sure, and to be prudent you assume the worse and react accordingly. That isn't a decision made out of fear - it's common sense. EVE is not like other video games that log you out automatically after 15 minutes of inactivity, or put an (AFK) tag next to your name after five. Every enemy player in the system must be considered a threat, even if he's away at work.

Third, as a recon player myself it isn't a big deal to have to re-cloak every once in a while. The only time this would present a problem was if I wasn't actually paying attention. In that case, I could still be AFK but I run the risk of being killed by any enterprising individual who *gasp* now has the ability to probe me down. If I go AFK that's my fault, not his, and I deserve to die. At the very least I deserve to be put at risk for not paying attention. Miners who don't pay attention are likely to die. Ratters who don't pay attention are also likely to die. AFK cloakers should run the same risks as well.

If you need any further help in understanding the problem I'm here to assist, as I know this is a complicated issue.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#269 - 2015-03-31 21:44:01 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Why does the potential loss of a ship frighten you so much?

A ship which, should you choose, is FULLY insured above and beyond purchase price.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#270 - 2015-03-31 21:55:23 UTC
I have removed a rule breaking post.

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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#271 - 2015-03-31 22:00:12 UTC
I have removed a rule breaking post and the one quoting it.

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Cade Windstalker
#272 - 2015-03-31 22:07:55 UTC
afkalt wrote:
If you can find cloakers, what risk is left in null ratting, an activity stated by CCP to bring in "a ****-ton" of isk?

Even an interceptor finds it almost impossible to snag an alert pilot.


And yet there are dozens if not hundreds of kills, and billions of ISK, lost out in the belts and sites of Null every day. In theory, sure, it's impossible to catch and pin these players down. In practice they die all the time. A quick search on Eve Kill (which I will not link to here to avoid violating forum rules) shows tens of billions in losses with NPCs on the kill mail, in Null, just today.

If you have a pilot active in your space then in order to stop him you have to hunt him down, which creates content because it brings players into conflict. Except that if someone is just hanging around cloaked there's no way to hunt him down. As long as he remains cloaked there's no content being created. Giving players tools to harass or potentially hunt down and kill cloaked players has to mean more ships blow up. If it's an effective way to stop ratters and miners from being harassed then people will start dropping the people hunting down their cloakies instead, potentially bringing bigger and more dangerous ships as a result.

At that point things either escalate or de-escalate. Either way conflict has happened that might not have otherwise occurred under the current mechanics.

These new structures have the opportunity to be fantastic drivers and enablers of conflict between parties, and there are certainly people who want cloaky gameplay to be a part of those changes.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#273 - 2015-03-31 22:26:21 UTC
I'd wager between the few famous high sec chokes multiple billions have been lost too. Likely by suboptimal players.

Conflict is fine [actively encouraged], however the overarching desire is to (effectively) remove the last risk from null ratting. The reality, however of letting players find cloaked people is that you make ratting safer because people would be forced to log out, there is no longer any ambiguity and with that means no risk. No die rolling.

My main point is, it's already inordinately hard to catch a ratter - they HAVE to be doing it wrong to be caught as it is - making that safer is...a poor direction. We shouldn't use the lowest common demoninator to debate balance and mechanics.

My other point is cloaky campers and peoples fear thereof is irrational - unless you're in a very expensive hull but then....that hangs a target on you EVERYWHERE so you ought to take suitable precautions. I STILL do not understand peoples obsession with not losing a throwaway ratting ship.

There are already ways to hunt the players - it simply requires counterplay and letting them take a nip at your first. One troll dual tanked tanked boat with a cyno....those tables can turn fast. But [almost] no-one does it. I don't understand it, baiting the hunters is one of the best and most satisfying thing in the game.
Dr Farallon
Moongoo Mining and Mixing
Goonswarm Federation
#274 - 2015-03-31 22:59:23 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Why does the potential loss of a ship frighten you so much?

A ship which, should you choose, is FULLY insured above and beyond purchase price.


You still don't get it. I'm not afraid of losing ships, but I should not be threatened with the possibility of losing ships with no realistic recourse to neutralize that threat. My issue is with AFK cloaking, not people actively hunting me or visa-versa. Furthermore, I'm not looking to remove risk from mining or ratting, as active enemy players will always and should always present that threat. Using my prior example, fear of cloaking campers is no more irrational than fear of a gun pointed at you which you *think* might be unloaded but you're not sure. You don't go about your day and hope for the best - you do something to mitigate that threat.

Anyone who lives in null-sec understands this.

Lets put AFK cloaking aside for a minute, since I've indisputably made my point, and lets focus on other benefits of the Observation Array's alleged ability to detect cloaked ships and how it can add to the excitement of game play for all sides. An active cloaked player should have no problem with having to occasionally re-cloak and dodge attacks. Being a recon unit deep inside enemy territory shouldn't be a risk-free job. A cloak should not be an invulnerability switch any longer. There should be danger to recon ships probing enemy systems and fleets who stay in one area too long. Cloaked recon ships should be constantly on the move to avoid being probed down, and a talented recon player who understands how to side-step his pursuers should be a prized addition to any alliance.

As it stands now a "recon" pilot is usually an alt with little or no attention paid to it with virtually no risks - a wasted opportunity for a play style that could be so much more.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#275 - 2015-03-31 23:05:18 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
No, your issue is you can't tell if they are active and are crippled by your own fears.

Don't kid yourself people would hunt them, the'll safe up faster than you can say warp out. This is obvious because they can be hunted TODAY - bait marauder with a cyno, for example. The only thing stopping you....is you.
Dr Farallon
Moongoo Mining and Mixing
Goonswarm Federation
#276 - 2015-03-31 23:44:45 UTC
afkalt wrote:
No, your issue is you can't tell if they are active and are crippled by your own fears.

Don't kid yourself people would hunt them, the'll safe up faster than you can say warp out. This is obvious because they can be hunted TODAY - bait marauder with a cyno, for example. The only thing stopping you....is you.


Once again, you're completely wrong in all of your assumptions. My issue is with the fact that I can't hunt them. I'm not crippled by fear - I'm blue balled by a system that has made a cloaking device and invulnerability switch.

You know how I can tell your argument is weak? Because the only counter-argument (and that's being generous) you've been able to make is that me and the rest of null sec is too afraid to fight back - which is patently untrue. I'm not afraid to fight back at all, but we currently cannot fight back against cloaked ships, and this is especially unfair against ships that are AFK. No ship should be able to sit deep inside enemy territory indefinitely, un-attended, and risk free. It's insulting that this situation has gone on this long.
Cade Windstalker
#277 - 2015-04-01 00:40:52 UTC
afkalt wrote:
No, your issue is you can't tell if they are active and are crippled by your own fears.

Don't kid yourself people would hunt them, the'll safe up faster than you can say warp out. This is obvious because they can be hunted TODAY - bait marauder with a cyno, for example. The only thing stopping you....is you.


I'd thank you not to be insulting or make spurious assumptions about those you're debating with here.

I have plenty of things that can hunt down and kill a cloaky ship, if they could actually do the hunting bit. Hell, another cloaky would do just fine. Dangling bait for hours on end (especially *obvious bait*) isn't a counter, it's hoping your enemy is actually there as well as silly enough to take your obvious bait unless he thinks he can kill it.

That's not a counter by any definition of the word, as well as being boring as hell unless he immediately jumps the bait, and if you'll note the complaint is with "AFK cloaking", meaning you have to be there for however many hours it takes him to bite (if he's dumb enough to bite) while he can go off and do literally anything else and have a meaningful impact on your game without even playing that character.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#278 - 2015-04-01 07:19:04 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
I repeat - you're limiting yourself. You're crippled by your own projected fears of the boogieman.

I will concede that afk cloaking is a problem just as soon as wormholers complain about it with even half the effort of nullbears. That's the real thing though, isn't it? No perfect blanket of local to go hide behind. Last I checked WH guys still kill a bunch of rats....

If you want afk cloaking to stop being 'rewarded' then STOP letting it bother you..
Lurifax
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#279 - 2015-04-01 11:05:03 UTC
afkalt wrote:
I repeat - you're limiting yourself. You're crippled by your own projected fears of the boogieman.

I will concede that afk cloaking is a problem just as soon as wormholers complain about it with even half the effort of nullbears. That's the real thing though, isn't it? No perfect blanket of local to go hide behind. Last I checked WH guys still kill a bunch of rats....

If you want afk cloaking to stop being 'rewarded' then STOP letting it bother you..


WH's got a limited access that the locals can control. It requires time to and skills(Probing) to enter the wh and a shipped fitted to that purpose.

Just make the array decloak ships in the system when used. Then you would still have to use probes to find the bugger.
If he is actively hunting it is not a problem to just warp off and cloake again.

Dr Farallon
Moongoo Mining and Mixing
Goonswarm Federation
#280 - 2015-04-01 12:27:20 UTC
afkalt wrote:
I repeat - you're limiting yourself. You're crippled by your own projected fears of the boogieman.

I will concede that afk cloaking is a problem just as soon as wormholers complain about it with even half the effort of nullbears. That's the real thing though, isn't it? No perfect blanket of local to go hide behind. Last I checked WH guys still kill a bunch of rats....

If you want afk cloaking to stop being 'rewarded' then STOP letting it bother you..


You obviously aren't reading or don't understand any of the counter arguments which completely invalidate your opinions. We are not limiting ourselves. We are limited by the game mechanics. We are not crippled by the boogieman, but frustrated that we can't hunt him down and kill him.

It's becoming more apparent with every post you make that you're the one who is scared things might change to be fair and balanced, and let those who are being harassed will soon be able to fight back. The days of you logging into an enemy system, knowing full well there is nothing the enemy can do to harm you, before catching the bus to school are nearing an end. So far, that is the only logical assumption to be made about any of your arguments.

Quote:
Just make the array decloak ships in the system when used. Then you would still have to use probes to find the bugger.
If he is actively hunting it is not a problem to just warp off and cloake again.


Exactly this. If you're not AFK, warping and re-cloaking is not a problem. The only people who fear these changes are those pathetic players who want to camp and enemy system while AFK.