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Dev blog: Politics by Other Means: Sovereignty Phase Two

First post First post First post
Author
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#2481 - 2015-03-05 16:21:41 UTC
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:
For those who are claiming they will take over half the galaxy in 40 minutes with their swarms of interceptors; what are your plans for protecting your space while you are away? Do you honestly think no one will do the same thing to you?

it does not require the whole of goonswarm federation to contest someone else's sov

we send EUTZ to go wreck nerds and leave USTZ home to defend

easy peasy
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#2482 - 2015-03-05 16:23:11 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:
For those who are claiming they will take over half the galaxy in 40 minutes with their swarms of interceptors; what are your plans for protecting your space while you are away? Do you honestly think no one will do the same thing to you?

it does not require the whole of goonswarm federation to contest someone else's sov

we send EUTZ to go wreck nerds and leave USTZ home to defend

easy peasy

Yeah, they definitely need to scale primetimes with sov size...


24hrs primetime if you hold over 3 regions sounds fine to me Lol

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager

Killbac Orator
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2483 - 2015-03-05 16:25:23 UTC
VolatileVoid wrote:
Systems are empty because they are not even worth advertising them for rent:

Open the map, look for military and industry indices. Every system that has both at 0 and and bad security status is totally worthless (maybe just enough for a single player, but no single player will take the risk and live there). Some systems have strategic functions, some are just for travel and the rest of empty systems are just for having an alert if your alli gets invaded.

As nearly all systems in renter space are free to rent, even the low status and strategic ones, and noone rents them they must be worthless. This i see as proof.


I cannot deny the viability, or lack of, in many of the systems in null. However, I am confident that this will be addressed as well in the coming months. This more than just SOV, It's about null overall.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2484 - 2015-03-05 16:25:55 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:
For those who are claiming they will take over half the galaxy in 40 minutes with their swarms of interceptors; what are your plans for protecting your space while you are away? Do you honestly think no one will do the same thing to you?

it does not require the whole of goonswarm federation to contest someone else's sov

we send EUTZ to go wreck nerds and leave USTZ home to defend

easy peasy

Yeah, they definitely need to scale primetimes with sov size...


24hrs primetime if you hold over 3 regions sounds fine to me Lol


Make it adaptable per region/constellation/systems. That way you can adjust to whatever your prime really is. Large alliance can cover most timezone so they could have a different spot vulnerable at different time to enable "content" to everybody. Smaller group might be lacking in some timezone so they concentrate everything on their effective prime.
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
Insidious.
#2485 - 2015-03-05 16:25:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Seven Koskanaiken
CCP stated goal creates a catch 22.

Any system that allows "a very small group of players in virtually any ship types should be able to completely conquer an undefended system with a few ~10-30 minute sessions spread across a few days" is a system that is open to trolling.

Any counter to trolling (prohibitively expensive modules, big ships needing escorts, etc) will also be a counter to "a very small group of players in virtually any ship types completely conquering an undefended system with a few ~10-30 minute sessions spread across a few days".

I know it's a heresy these days but I think it's time to say sov is not for a small group (as in, a very small group of players in virtually any ship types). We already have multiple areas of space where small groups thrive, its not like they can't play the game. Especially if shoehorning these small groups in means abandoning common sense and elegant design. We can have a nice middle ground in between tidi blobs and ceptor gangs.
VolatileVoid
Viking Clan
#2486 - 2015-03-05 16:30:19 UTC
Killbac Orator wrote:
VolatileVoid wrote:
Systems are empty because they are not even worth advertising them for rent:

Open the map, look for military and industry indices. Every system that has both at 0 and and bad security status is totally worthless (maybe just enough for a single player, but no single player will take the risk and live there). Some systems have strategic functions, some are just for travel and the rest of empty systems are just for having an alert if your alli gets invaded.

As nearly all systems in renter space are free to rent, even the low status and strategic ones, and noone rents them they must be worthless. This i see as proof.


I cannot deny the viability, or lack of, in many of the systems in null. However, I am confident that this will be addressed as well in the coming months. This more than just SOV, It's about null overall.


I am putting my hope in that because the actually presented capture the flag system is total rubbish and will bring the few good systems to uselessness.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#2487 - 2015-03-05 16:31:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Eli Apol
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
Yeah, they definitely need to scale primetimes with sov size...


24hrs primetime if you hold over 3 regions sounds fine to me Lol


Make it adaptable per region/constellation/systems. That way you can adjust to whatever your prime really is. Large alliance can cover most timezone so they could have a different spot vulnerable at different time to enable "content" to everybody. Smaller group might be lacking in some timezone so they concentrate everything on their effective prime.

Exactly, either scale by number of members or by number of systems/contellations/regions...

THEN provide sov bonuses only for the actual holding alliance members.

If you want to splinter into separate alliances to restrict it to 4hr windows then you need to split your defensive and line members across each alliance as well. Sure they can keep all blued coalitions but it forces them into localised fragments.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager

Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#2488 - 2015-03-05 16:33:04 UTC
125 pages, 2 CSM posts. This shows how little your vote matters. If it had to be any more obvious.
TarPalantir I
Evolution
Northern Coalition.
#2489 - 2015-03-05 16:38:40 UTC  |  Edited by: TarPalantir I
Tar-Palantir is a pretty much life long member of Evolution. That means he has been in BoB, IT, INIT, 401K, and now NCdot alliances. All of them had different ways of fighting, scale, and approaches to the Sov side of Null-Sec. What most had in common is that they fought Wars. Not fights, not battles, but Wars and all that comes with it - the logistics, the attacks, counter attacks, new strategies, new doctrines, new allies, new enemies, months and months of constant fighting towards a *goal*. That is Tar-Palantir's passion. Whether NCdot holds sov or not Tar-Palantir doesn't care per se - as long as NCdot still fights Wars Tar-Palantir will remain active. So what he wants most out of a Sov system is something that allows not just fighting, not just roaming gangs, but Wars. For that to work, the Attacker must be able to threaten stuff effectively, but the Defender must also be confident enough in their ability to defend their Sov that they invest in their Sov space and put assets there. With that investment there, when an attacker comes, it is worth fighting to defend rather than just running away.

Being Tar-Palantir, his thoughts about the new Sov system turned into a rather massive Wall of Textâ„¢. Such a massive Wall of of Textâ„¢ isn't a good fit for a forum discussion - it just chews up too much space. So instead of inserting the whole thing here it is publish on EN24 as those type of sites make more sense for something that long and wordy.

External link to EN24 article - http://evenews24.com/2015/03/05/tar-palantirs-take-on-the-proposed-sovereignty-changes/

So that you'll have a slight idea what Tar-Palantir is talking about he will put a VERY brief summary of some of the main points here. You have the main article link if that interests you.

1. The risk/resources/benefit structure is very heavily tilted in favor of the attacker. It doesn't mean the attacker will always win, just that the attacker can put forth minimal effort and resources - low risk - and cause massive problems/grief for the defender.

2. Properly executed Blitzkrieg attacks even between = number alliances can result in the defender looking at losing most/all of their Sov in a 3 day time span based on about 6-7 hours of game play.

3. The Prime Time vulnerability Window is very, very, very limiting.

4. Removing the Prime Time Vulnerability window makes being the defender utter insanity and more than a little frustrating.

6. (yes, skipping 5) - Large numbers are even more critical than ever for defense. Small powers can threaten and even take Sov due to the imbalances mentioned in #1, but they are very unlikely to be able to hold it.

Some Sov ideas/concepts mostly from the old POS system that Tar-Palantir considers useful for thinking about the design of a Sov system. Yes, Tar-Palantir believes the old POS system, for all its flaws, was far better than both Dominion Sov and this new proposal.
Milla Goodpussy
Garoun Investment Bank
#2490 - 2015-03-05 16:40:11 UTC
Abrazzar wrote:
125 pages, 2 CSM posts. This shows how little your vote matters. If it had to be any more obvious.



100's near thousands of post about afk cloaky camping, and ccp refuses to acknowledge that its a problem, fozzie comes up with this sov change and cloaky camping is going to go up but I promise you this.

they'll provide a pretty pie chart saying it isn't so.

csm is nothing but puppets and a gimmick for elite ego's that want to play with it, nothing else, he gives them the insider news and they only protect their interest.. they are not for protecting anyone else.

X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#2491 - 2015-03-05 16:41:07 UTC
In the end, the defenders will assign the boring tasks of Sov defense to their alts - like always.
SilentAsTheGrave
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2492 - 2015-03-05 16:41:43 UTC
Vigilanta wrote:
Arrendis wrote:
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:
The same tears were spilled over the jump fatigue mechanic and that change has proven to be very healthy for the game as a whole, despite the vocal minority who relied so heavily on teleporation to do even the most basic things in the game.


Actually, if you go back and look, a lot of the initial complaints about jump fatigue were about a)logistics of living out in null, and b)the fact that it was possible to rack up a jump timer of over 8 millenia.

And those got addressed.

the 30 day fatigue timer still sucks balls for those who dont pay attention, it really needs to be capped at a week max

You sound like someone who gets mad because they keep running out of gas. If only they would just pay attention to the gas gauge. Ugh
Killbac Orator
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2493 - 2015-03-05 16:45:10 UTC
And this may be something that CCP will have to visit as a potential issue. But for the time being, and from my perspective, I view all of this as a good thing with excellent potential for new strategies like:

Forced diplomacy, more small gang roams, system ransoms (lol) etc. Either way, those of us who are on the forums with a box of lemons trying to make lemonade ( with some whiskey ) are doing exactly what CCP wants us to do as players. And that is: Come up with new and exciting ways to keep OUR game moving forward into the next ten years. This is EVE.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#2494 - 2015-03-05 16:48:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Milla Goodpussy wrote:


100's near thousands of post about afk cloaky camping, and ccp refuses to acknowledge that its a problem
That's because it's not a problem except for the weak, lazy and un-creative.

What I tell afk cloakers:

[Typhoon, F YOU AFKguy]
Internal Force Field Array I
'Repose' Core Compensation
'Repose' Core Compensation
'Repose' Core Compensation
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Large Micro Jump Drive
Target Spectrum Breaker
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
'Copasetic' Particle Field Acceleration
Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Auto-Targeting Cruise Missile I
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Auto-Targeting Cruise Missile I
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Auto-Targeting Cruise Missile I
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Auto-Targeting Cruise Missile I
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Auto-Targeting Cruise Missile I
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Auto-Targeting Cruise Missile I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II
Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I

Curator II x4
Hornet EC-300 x5
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#2495 - 2015-03-05 16:48:50 UTC
Abrazzar wrote:
125 pages, 2 CSM posts. This shows how little your vote matters. If it had to be any more obvious.

Xenuria for CSM, now more than ever.
Proton Stars
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2496 - 2015-03-05 16:53:40 UTC
Abrazzar wrote:
125 pages, 2 CSM posts. This shows how little your vote matters. If it had to be any more obvious.



Yeah, its pretty clear we are not being listened to. I'd go out ona limb and say the CSM told ccp that this whole patch was terrible but ccp released it anyways and their silence is more damning than the 125 page thread.




El'Grimm
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2497 - 2015-03-05 16:55:05 UTC
Papa Digger wrote:
Arrendis wrote:
Don't let us. Don't give us the tools to be worse than we already are. Because we will. And we'll enjoy it, for as long as CCP lets us ride that mechanic into the ground. And for every voice saying 'you'll get bored of being jackasses and start behaving rationally', I can only ask: After all these years, when exactly are we, the assembled bastards and griefers throughout nullsec, supposed to get bored of being jackasses?

I think you'll get bored to alarmclocking to grief euro timers every 2 days.. emm, in 1-2 weeks. :)



Your having a laugh aren't you, I cant think of any of the big blocs who haven't got a mortal game enemy that has literally been after them for years, hell the two largest blocs are that enemy to each other, and beyond that they each have further dedicated enemies thats only purpose is to see them fail. 2 weeks is seriously nothing to us guys, previous sov wars have active wars that last for months and months and grudges that NEVER stop.

Best way to stop the troll tactic, BC hull and above.
If a new group cant field a few BC's, then they clearly cant move the tcu/ihub/pos's that MUST go with holding sov, and it automatically stops nullified ships being troll worthy, and brings much needed value to BC and BS hulls. Hell new groups might even figure out what boosts are about if a BC is the ship they must look at for a starting point.
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
Insidious.
#2498 - 2015-03-05 16:56:24 UTC
Proton Stars wrote:
Abrazzar wrote:
125 pages, 2 CSM posts. This shows how little your vote matters. If it had to be any more obvious.



Yeah, its pretty clear we are not being listened to. I'd go out ona limb and say the CSM told ccp that this whole patch was terrible but ccp released it anyways and their silence is more damning than the 125 page thread.






Go to the campaigns forum, post a thread, each CSM candidate to post their opinion on these changes before voting closes. (That's if, you care about the CSM).
Proton Stars
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2499 - 2015-03-05 16:58:03 UTC
El'Grimm wrote:
Papa Digger wrote:
Arrendis wrote:
Don't let us. Don't give us the tools to be worse than we already are. Because we will. And we'll enjoy it, for as long as CCP lets us ride that mechanic into the ground. And for every voice saying 'you'll get bored of being jackasses and start behaving rationally', I can only ask: After all these years, when exactly are we, the assembled bastards and griefers throughout nullsec, supposed to get bored of being jackasses?

I think you'll get bored to alarmclocking to grief euro timers every 2 days.. emm, in 1-2 weeks. :)



Your having a laugh aren't you, I cant think of any of the big blocs who haven't got a mortal game enemy that has literally been after them for years, hell the two largest blocs are that enemy to each other, and beyond that they each have further dedicated enemies thats only purpose is to see them fail. 2 weeks is seriously nothing to us guys, previous sov wars have active wars that last for months and months and grudges that NEVER stop.

Best way to stop the troll tactic, BC hull and above.
If a new group cant field a few BC's, then they clearly cant move the tcu/ihub/pos's that MUST go with holding sov, and it automatically stops nullified ships being troll worthy, and brings much needed value to BC and BS hulls. Hell new groups might even figure out what boosts are about if a BC is the ship they must look at for a starting point.



those wars lasted 4 months because the pilots in them could sleep during their own RL 'night time'. Eve used to be about alarm clocking and it used to also be about burn out and disbanding alliances.

Why do people seem to think making 0.0 a job is a good idea? why does the workload to play a game have to be so high? And more than anything else why on gods earth did they choose to build a 'fix' model on an area of 0.0 renowned for being filled with people who dont have a clue?
Proton Stars
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2500 - 2015-03-05 17:01:53 UTC
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
Proton Stars wrote:
Abrazzar wrote:
125 pages, 2 CSM posts. This shows how little your vote matters. If it had to be any more obvious.



Yeah, its pretty clear we are not being listened to. I'd go out ona limb and say the CSM told ccp that this whole patch was terrible but ccp released it anyways and their silence is more damning than the 125 page thread.






Go to the campaigns forum, post a thread, each CSM candidate to post their opinion on these changes before voting closes. (That's if, you care about the CSM).



someone already has.