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Dev blog: Politics by Other Means: Sovereignty Phase Two

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Author
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
Goonswarm Federation
#2501 - 2015-03-05 17:04:52 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:
For those who are claiming they will take over half the galaxy in 40 minutes with their swarms of interceptors; what are your plans for protecting your space while you are away? Do you honestly think no one will do the same thing to you?

it does not require the whole of goonswarm federation to contest someone else's sov

we send EUTZ to go wreck nerds and leave USTZ home to defend

easy peasy

Yeah, they definitely need to scale primetimes with sov size...


24hrs primetime if you hold over 3 regions sounds fine to me Lol

no problem, we just break into multiple holding alliances and shift pilots around as they are needed to defend
Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2502 - 2015-03-05 17:06:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Aralyn Cormallen
Proton Stars wrote:
El'Grimm wrote:
Papa Digger wrote:
Arrendis wrote:
Don't let us. Don't give us the tools to be worse than we already are. Because we will. And we'll enjoy it, for as long as CCP lets us ride that mechanic into the ground. And for every voice saying 'you'll get bored of being jackasses and start behaving rationally', I can only ask: After all these years, when exactly are we, the assembled bastards and griefers throughout nullsec, supposed to get bored of being jackasses?

I think you'll get bored to alarmclocking to grief euro timers every 2 days.. emm, in 1-2 weeks. :)



Your having a laugh aren't you, I cant think of any of the big blocs who haven't got a mortal game enemy that has literally been after them for years, hell the two largest blocs are that enemy to each other, and beyond that they each have further dedicated enemies thats only purpose is to see them fail. 2 weeks is seriously nothing to us guys, previous sov wars have active wars that last for months and months and grudges that NEVER stop.

Best way to stop the troll tactic, BC hull and above.
If a new group cant field a few BC's, then they clearly cant move the tcu/ihub/pos's that MUST go with holding sov, and it automatically stops nullified ships being troll worthy, and brings much needed value to BC and BS hulls. Hell new groups might even figure out what boosts are about if a BC is the ship they must look at for a starting point.



those wars lasted 4 months because the pilots in them could sleep during their own RL 'night time'. Eve used to be about alarm clocking and it used to also be about burn out and disbanding alliances.


What night time? The last wars we fought, our EU (IT, NCdot and Raiden) and US (Test) enemies had to default to timing for AUS timezone because we had everything else covered, and still all that did was slow us down. Its actually better for us if the people who we want to greif time away from our chosen Prime, since the guys having to play "defender" wont be strung out also by going on the offense, instead you'll have our fresh other timezones with literally nothing better to do.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#2503 - 2015-03-05 17:08:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Eli Apol
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:
For those who are claiming they will take over half the galaxy in 40 minutes with their swarms of interceptors; what are your plans for protecting your space while you are away? Do you honestly think no one will do the same thing to you?

it does not require the whole of goonswarm federation to contest someone else's sov

we send EUTZ to go wreck nerds and leave USTZ home to defend

easy peasy

Yeah, they definitely need to scale primetimes with sov size...


24hrs primetime if you hold over 3 regions sounds fine to me Lol

no problem, we just break into multiple holding alliances and shift pilots around as they are needed to defend

Force Sov bonuses to only apply to current members of the holding alliance = holding alliances are useless for actually using the space unless you're a member of that holding alliance.

Add a week delay to using entosis links after jumping alliance = can't just jump around your pvpers from alliance to alliance as needed.

Make Sov bonuses only apply during your primetime period = US tz players won't be able to use EU tz alliances sov effectively (edit: unless they extend the primetime period to cover both groups.)

Keep dancing.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager

Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2504 - 2015-03-05 17:12:24 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Make Sov bonuses only apply during your primetime period = US tz players won't be able to use EU tz alliances sov effectively.



Do you have any idea how phenomenally bad this idea is? 'Hey, null players! You only have reason to be logged in during this 4 hour window! Let's make null more empty!'
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#2505 - 2015-03-05 17:13:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Eli Apol
Arrendis wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
Make Sov bonuses only apply during your primetime period = US tz players won't be able to use EU tz alliances sov effectively.



Do you have any idea how phenomenally bad this idea is? 'Hey, null players! You only have reason to be logged in during this 4 hour window! Let's make null more empty!'

I amended that afterwards :)

'unless they extend the primetime period to cover both groups playtime'




edit: I kinda like the risk/reward of that actually: Adjusting your primetime length affects your income potential but also makes you more vulnerable for longer periods and requires more defence. Depends on what the sov bonuses are changed to though.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager

Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2506 - 2015-03-05 17:18:08 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Arrendis wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
Make Sov bonuses only apply during your primetime period = US tz players won't be able to use EU tz alliances sov effectively.



Do you have any idea how phenomenally bad this idea is? 'Hey, null players! You only have reason to be logged in during this 4 hour window! Let's make null more empty!'

I amended that afterwards :)

'unless they extend the primetime period to cover both groups playtime'




edit: I kinda like the risk/reward of that actually: Adjusting your primetime length affects your income potential but also makes you more vulnerable for longer periods and requires more defence. Depends on what the sov bonuses are changed to though.


It's still just going to mean that claimed space will be utterly empty when invulnerable. That's not how you get a more dynamic nullsec with more fights.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
Goonswarm Federation
#2507 - 2015-03-05 17:19:08 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:
For those who are claiming they will take over half the galaxy in 40 minutes with their swarms of interceptors; what are your plans for protecting your space while you are away? Do you honestly think no one will do the same thing to you?

it does not require the whole of goonswarm federation to contest someone else's sov

we send EUTZ to go wreck nerds and leave USTZ home to defend

easy peasy

Yeah, they definitely need to scale primetimes with sov size...


24hrs primetime if you hold over 3 regions sounds fine to me Lol

no problem, we just break into multiple holding alliances and shift pilots around as they are needed to defend

Force Sov bonuses to only apply to current members of the holding alliance = holding alliances are useless for actually using the space unless you're a member of that holding alliance.

Add a week delay to using entosis links after jumping alliance = can't just jump around your pvpers from alliance to alliance as needed.

Make Sov bonuses only apply during your primetime period = US tz players won't be able to use EU tz alliances sov effectively (edit: unless they extend the primetime period to cover both groups.)

Keep dancing.

unfortunately, sov bonuses just don't work like that

sov bonuses spawn anoms, grav sites, hacking mini-games, wormholes (lol), and DED complexes

none of these things can be restricted to one alliance or can even really be restricted to the alliance's prime time

the only thing on the list that can be is cyno beacons, which, surprise surprise, already work like this

also entosis link ships can be farmed out to alts
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2508 - 2015-03-05 17:21:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Frostys Virpio
Jenn aSide wrote:
Milla Goodpussy wrote:


100's near thousands of post about afk cloaky camping, and ccp refuses to acknowledge that its a problem
That's because it's not a problem except for the weak, lazy and un-creative.

What I tell afk cloakers:

[Typhoon, F YOU AFKguy]
Internal Force Field Array I
'Repose' Core Compensation
'Repose' Core Compensation
'Repose' Core Compensation
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Large Micro Jump Drive
Target Spectrum Breaker
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
'Copasetic' Particle Field Acceleration
Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Auto-Targeting Cruise Missile I
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Auto-Targeting Cruise Missile I
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Auto-Targeting Cruise Missile I
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Auto-Targeting Cruise Missile I
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Auto-Targeting Cruise Missile I
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Auto-Targeting Cruise Missile I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II
Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I

Curator II x4
Hornet EC-300 x5


That does not shoot far enough especially if the target move withing it's large "sapce tag" allowed range.

EDIT : My bad, missread the meaning of the quoted post.

But still, it shows how the 250km range on that link is ********.
Tashan Kettiko
Easy Company Logistic Command
#2509 - 2015-03-05 17:24:27 UTC
Begin training my Enthosis alt now for Tank-y station systems counter ship.
Thoirdhealbhach
Liga der hessischen Gentlemen
#2510 - 2015-03-05 17:25:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Thoirdhealbhach
TarPalantir I wrote:

1. The risk/resources/benefit structure is very heavily tilted in favor of the attacker. It doesn't mean the attacker will always win, just that the attacker can put forth minimal effort and resources - low risk - and cause massive problems/grief for the defender.

2. Properly executed Blitzkrieg attacks even between = number alliances can result in the defender looking at losing most/all of their Sov in a 3 day time span based on about 6-7 hours of game play.


Have you ever thought about retribution? If an alliance starts this sort of harassment, they will have to endure the same thing!

All those examples, about ceptor fleets griefing the hell out of everyone, completely ignore the fact, that as a defender you can easily threaten the attacker in just the same way. So it all boils down to mutually assured perma-harassment...?

Maybe... but only, as long as you are stretched out thin. As soon as you have like two dozens of people in every system you own, the problem goes away.

Plus an intelligent defender could easily have the lone ceptor griefer try and grief for half an hour (remember those 10 minutes are just for empty systems... everything that is even remotely inhabited will fall somewhere between 10 and 40 min), only to come in at the last three minutes, activate your own E-link, and either blab him or chase him off.

Every half-decent occupied system will take a while to conquer and sitting around alone for 20-40 minutes, hoping that the defender will not show up at the last minute, is no fun, but a cruel mind game for the attacker as well. After all its the attackers time commitment as well. Roaming around, waiting 20 minutes, being chased off or sniped off last minute and repeat; for 4h+... ? Who in their right mind, would wanna do that on a regular basis??? That's even worse than structure grinding, cause you don't even have any sense of community or any firepower to deal with defenders...

Oh and don't forget, that the defender will take back any progress you made in 12-15 minutes max, even if you needed 30+ minutes to get there... My guess is, that something like an "emergency Drake" (all mids, lows, and rigs fitted for brick tank and RMLs + T1 E-link on top) will emerge; a sturdy, cheap fit that can hold up a large swarm of pilots solo. Harassment is only long term effective, as long as it is asymmetrical in all aspects, which it isn't; time commitment is in favor of the defender.

My bet is, that after a few tries, people on both sides will get tired of meaningless games of cat-and-mouse and will choose to upgrade to bigger ships and small gangs who can actually stay, fight and get something done.
Rex Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2511 - 2015-03-05 17:28:59 UTC
Thoirdhealbhach wrote:
TarPalantir I wrote:

1. The risk/resources/benefit structure is very heavily tilted in favor of the attacker. It doesn't mean the attacker will always win, just that the attacker can put forth minimal effort and resources - low risk - and cause massive problems/grief for the defender.

2. Properly executed Blitzkrieg attacks even between = number alliances can result in the defender looking at losing most/all of their Sov in a 3 day time span based on about 6-7 hours of game play.


Have you ever thought about retribution? If an alliance starts this sort of harassment, they will have to endure the same thing!

All those examples, about ceptor fleets griefing the hell out of everyone, completely ignore the fact, that as a defender you can easily threaten the attacker in just the same way. So it all boils down to mutually assured perma-harassment...?

Maybe... but only, as long as you are stretched out thin. As soon as you have like two dozens of people in every system you own, the problem goes away.

Plus an intelligent defender could easily have the lone ceptor griefer try and grief for half an hour (remember those 10 minutes are just for empty systems... everything that is even remotely inhabitet will fall somewhere between 10 and 40 min), only to come in at the last three minutes, activate your own E-link, and either blab him or chase him off.

Every half-decent occupied system will take a while to conquer and sitting around alone for 20-40 minutes, hoping that the defender will not show up at the last minute, is no fun, but a cruel mind game for the attacker as well. After all its the attackers time commitment as well. Roaming around, waiting 20 minutes, being chased off or sniped off last minute and repeat; for 4h+... ? Who in their right mind, would wanna do that on a regular basis??? That's even worse than structure grinding, cause you don't even have any sense of community or any firepower to deal with defenders...

Oh and don't forget, that the defender with take back any progress you made in 12-15 minutes max, even if you needed 30+ minutes to get there... My guess is, that something like an "emergency Drake" (all mids, lows, and rigs fitted for brick tank and RMLs + T1 E-link on top) will emerge; a sturdy, cheap fit that can hold up a large swarm of pilots solo. Harassment is only long term effective, as long as it is asymmetrical in all aspects, which it isn't; time commitment is in favor of the defender.

My bet is, that after a few tries, people on both sides will get tired of meaningless games of cat-and-mouse and will choose to upgrade to bigger ships and small gangs who can actually stay, fight and get something done.


I hope there will a dedicated in game RSS feed for alliance link attacks, with timers and everything so people can keep track which systemsbget priority with defence and stuff.
MajorScrewup
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2512 - 2015-03-05 17:29:48 UTC
Just some quick thoughts I had on increasing space residency.

Sov needs to be made more valuable at some point to make it worth fighting over and to fill null-sec with more people using the space.
Most regions in null-sec currently have 8-10 systems at most where people use the best security systems for ratting. A new system should be introduced where the value of all systems should be worth upgrading but also with a sliding scale valuing these true security systems.

[All values used are simply there to show a way to increase value to all systems].

I propose a new system where each system can be upgradeable but persists in a cyclic system. Better true security systems rotating through the cycle in less times but still not making it better value to simply stay in these systems under the present system. A cycle would compose of the normal system npcs and their bounties, but as occupancy combined with npc kills increases, so does the value of the npc bounties and their quantity.

Cycle 0 would be the value of an unclaimed system and result in the npcs in the present system.
Cycle 1 would give npcs with bounties 20% higher and at an accelerated rate of spawn and be the start of the cycle.
Cycle 5 would be generated from destruction of so many npcs and result in npcs that have bounties twice the current value with double the spawns.
At the end of occupancy 5 where enough npcs have been killed a npc with a value of ~10m would spawn and destroying it would signal that the end of increased value npc waves has finished for this cycle. (In lore this could be explained as the npcs amassing again). It could even be made that this npc dropped a bpc for the new entosis module, tying together PvE and PvP.

The cycle length of this system returning to high value npcs would be between 4-8 days depending on the tru-sec of the system. This would give the players a reason to move onto a new system in their space to get better bounties and also they will have increased their defense of this system against outside PvP attack under the new system.

The same system would be applied to mining, but with ores that gave an increased yield when refined from 20% to 100% depending on the level of the cycle.

Occupancy would be used to determine the minimum lenght of Prime Time on a system:

Occupancy 5 - 4 hour window
Occupancy 4 - 6 hour window
Occupancy 3 - 8 hour window
Occupancy 2 - 12 hour window
Occupancy 1 - 18 hour window
Occupancy 0 - 24 hour window

Occupancy would be determined by military and industrial levels as proposed, but adding in all the factors of a system.

Example would be that military uses the numbers of npc killed, pvp kills, POS, pilots in space, and other activity in this envelope. Industrial would use any mining activity, including moon mining, all manufacturing jobs, and other relevant activities.

Military 5 and industry 5 would have the same benefits as before in system with, but the cyclic role of npcs and ore in a system should encourage greater use of other lower security systems and a better reason to build up the defensive level of these systems.

The time to get each systems defensive value up to a maximum value should reflect the ability of the holders to use the system and they should lose systems and create more space holders.
They will either have to lose systems that they do not use which is a good thing as it encourages new residents to move in and utilise this space; or recruit people to use these systems that they have no time to use.

With more people in space and using all aspects of the space, null sec dwellers would be able to reduce reliance on hi-sec even more. More PvP will be had as there is now a target rich environment which will hopefully result in more small scale roaming benefiting both the PvP orientated residents and outsiders of the region to come roam into.

I also propose a separate thread for the Entosis discussion.
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#2513 - 2015-03-05 17:30:17 UTC
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
Its actually better for us if the people who we want to greif time away from our chosen Prime, since the guys having to play "defender" wont be strung out also by going on the offense, instead you'll have our fresh other timezones with literally nothing better to do.


lulz

See everytime something someting changes in the game and null residents raise issues about it, "others" (mainly high sec types) rush in and proclaim how the 'tears are delicious'. What they NEVER seem to understand is that null residents are adapters, no matter what CCP throws at them, they fine a way to keep on truckin. What really happens though, is that in some way, the people who were celebrating 'tears' end up being the only people who end up suffering from whatever change is being discussed.

It's happening here (well, in general discussion anyways), people are proclaiming how this will be great for the game and the goons/N3/bi guys are gonna suffer and the coalations will collapse and the 'little guy' will have a chance. What they don't (and never) see coming is that the big groups will survive and find a way to profit, the little guys will still be sad and the high sec people celebrating will not be subject to BORED GOONS who don't have to be in null because their alliances prime time is in another Time Zones....which means even more ganking and tomfoolery Twisted

Tears aren't the things that are delicious. The thing that is delicious is IRONY.
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2514 - 2015-03-05 17:30:30 UTC
Kah'Les wrote:
Elenahina wrote:

Or you could use 20 Rifters and save yourself a couple hundred million ISK.

Remember - they can't reinforce it, if you have it linked up too. You don't HAVE to kill the attacker. Just deny him sole control of the field.

That said, kill him anway, if you can, because you can.


Null is kind of supposed to be the end game, where dose people who have played this game for so long have to go to get away from the frigate game. SP should acually count for something, CCPs idea that newbro should be able to take sov is backwards. If you want to fly small gang pvp go do FW not null sec.

Don't you dare hate on the newbros in frigates. They're awesome.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#2515 - 2015-03-05 17:31:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Eli Apol
Promiscuous Female wrote:
unfortunately, sov bonuses just don't work like that

sov bonuses spawn anoms, grav sites, hacking mini-games, wormholes (lol), and DED complexes

none of these things can be restricted to one alliance or can even really be restricted to the alliance's prime time

the only thing on the list that can be is cyno beacons, which, surprise surprise, already work like this

also entosis link ships can be farmed out to alts

Correct, CURRENT sov bonuses don't work like that. We have no idea what the new ones will be like though. They're rejigging the whole of nullsec remember, this is just phase 2.

Some possibilities that could pertain only to controlling sov members:

- Increased mining efficiency during prime time
- Higher bounties during primetime - could even have the opposite of incursion penalties; better resists and damage projection.
- Active gate/station guns that only defend members of the sov holding group
- Improved research/manufacturing efficiency for jobs started within primetime
- Hacking efficiency improved during primetime

And also in general:
- Jump bridges only active during primetime
- Cyno jammers only active during primetime

Keep yourself to a small 4 hour window if that's all you require but for a large multinational alliance, you're probably gonna want to extend your primetime willingly if changes like this were implemented.

edit: ooooooooh also. No local outside of primetime (lulz)

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager

Davader
Space Cleaners
The Gorgon Empire
#2516 - 2015-03-05 17:33:39 UTC
On the "Politics by Other Means: Sovereignty Phase Two":

Awesome changes, very interesting solution. Looking for the final implementation!
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#2517 - 2015-03-05 17:36:02 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Milla Goodpussy wrote:


100's near thousands of post about afk cloaky camping, and ccp refuses to acknowledge that its a problem
That's because it's not a problem except for the weak, lazy and un-creative.

What I tell afk cloakers:

[Typhoon, F YOU AFKguy]
Internal Force Field Array I
'Repose' Core Compensation
'Repose' Core Compensation
'Repose' Core Compensation
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Large Micro Jump Drive
Target Spectrum Breaker
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
'Copasetic' Particle Field Acceleration
Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Auto-Targeting Cruise Missile I
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Auto-Targeting Cruise Missile I
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Auto-Targeting Cruise Missile I
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Auto-Targeting Cruise Missile I
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Auto-Targeting Cruise Missile I
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Auto-Targeting Cruise Missile I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II
Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I

Curator II x4
Hornet EC-300 x5


That does not shoot far enough especially if the target move withing it's large "sapce tag" allowed range.

EDIT : My bad, missread the meaning of the quoted post.

But still, it shows how the 250km range on that link is ********.
You misunderstand. This isn't about the new system. That is the ship I use to continue ratting when the afk cloakers camp in my system, the same afk cloakers that the Milla Goodpussys of the world think are such a disastrous problem that requires CCP intervention. Some people even claim that 'afk cloakers make people leave the game'.

It's all nonsense. Cloakers (afk or otherwise) are only a problem for people who couldn't think their way out of a wet paper bag and everytime someone proclaims them to be a problem, I trot out one of my "F the afk cloaker' fits to educate them. I consider it a public service Cool
SilentAsTheGrave
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2518 - 2015-03-05 17:37:27 UTC
I don't understand why the fitting requirements for this high slot link thing was not revealed in the dev blog. If it turns out it is not possible to fit on anything smaller than a cruiser, it would have saved about 50 pages of posts in this thread.
Ned Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2519 - 2015-03-05 17:42:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Ned Thomas
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:
I don't understand why the fitting requirements for this high slot link thing was not revealed in the dev blog. If it turns out it is not possible to fit on anything smaller than a cruiser, it would have saved about 50 pages of posts in this thread.


Yeah, but would we really be the same without those 50 pages?

EDIT: And I'm hoping that even with it's "low fitting requirement", it's still enough to effectively gimp a frigate fit to doing nothing but hacking the structure.
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#2520 - 2015-03-05 17:42:50 UTC
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:
I don't understand why the fitting requirements for this high slot link thing was not revealed in the dev blog. If it turns out it is not possible to fit on anything smaller than a cruiser, it would have saved about 50 pages of posts in this thread.

Probably because they couldn't decide where they want to put it and just put it out there for the feedback to fret about it to see where public opinion goes. Personally, I'd make it a command link. Then again, I had a entirely different system for sovereignty in mind, so what does my opinion matter.