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Dev blog: Politics by Other Means: Sovereignty Phase Two

First post First post First post
Author
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1021 - 2015-03-04 03:06:21 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
Proton Stars wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
So the best way to take sov is by constellation-wide deployments. heh. I thought one of the main premises was allowing sov to be local to a system?

FC was the old hotness, now there will be a CC or Constellation Coordinator?


Anyone would think they are trying to boost large alliance groups like goons

Most of the discussion assumes there will be conflict at all. I'm pretty sure there will be NEPs or Non Entosis Pacts.

That's why I'm worried about neutral Alts.
Rain6637
NulzSec
#1022 - 2015-03-04 03:07:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
Lienzo
Amanuensis
#1023 - 2015-03-04 03:11:44 UTC
Bottom-up approaches don't produce reasons for conflict. Hunter-gatherer societies don't go to war, not even cannibalistic ones.

Only unbridled greed, the demands of investments and dependency driven vassalage produce wars.


We wanted you to add content and objectives for small gangs, not replace everything with this rubber-stamp sov mining. The idea of spawning constellation wide anomalies is a great idea, but it should be an addition to what we have, and not a wholesale replacement. It would be a great replacement for TCU timers.

If such a system that allowed for small gang harassment could damage sov indices over time, thereby threatening grand industrial projects, that would be worthwhile. It would give small gang FCs a clear set of focal points. It would also help the grand campaigns lumber on and marshal resources over the usual weeks instead of just sweeping the field in days.

You need to make sov worth having and keeping, and capital ships need to have a role in that. How about only allow hull repairs in capital shipyards, increase their hull hp by a goodly margin, and allow 1% of all damage to bleed through? How about making half of all capital ship build requirements and ammo come from r8/16 moons?

The whole point of having big hp walls is that you can differentiate which content is for which size fleet and the investment each represents. The key here is to have different size walls, rather than just big walls on everything.

Immunity can always be layered behind walls if the periphery is always made up of short walls, and the tall walls are dependent upon the existence and maintenance of the short walls.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#1024 - 2015-03-04 03:17:03 UTC
Aivlis Eldelbar wrote:
Tons of griefing is what I see come June if this is not significantly improved.

Please start by making those Entosis modules cost upwards of 100m for T1, 250m+ for T2, so they cannot be used for throwaway griefing. Cost and fitting requirements should be much stronger than what is on the table so that they aren't used to just annoy the **** out of locals for funsies. Those things are set to be a sure way to force a fight, so make them cost accordingly, so that the defenders get some sense of achievement for blapping the pesky troll. The attacker is guaranteed to get some pvp, make him risk something beyond a sub-50m interceptor.

Secondly, afk cloaking. It can nuke mil/indy indexes anywhere but the most populated staging systems over a course of a week, and it's about to become a totally legit sov warfare weapon; "weaponized boredom", like you call it. I hope there are either changes to stealth coming, or the indexes will get reworked a bit so they either don't decay as fast or include things other than ratting.

Thirdly, what do we get from sov? 25% discount on pos fuel sounds kinda lame in a world where systems need to be defended for 4 hours straight every single day. If you're going to make sov harder to keep, make it worth the effort.



Two disagreements, one point of agreement.

Firstly, using an Entosis module to threaten a structure with no intention of actually backing up that threat come the timer is not griefing, it's strategic deceptive play. No different to having one of your alliance's spies suggest a new fleet doctrine to the alliance they are spying on when you have a hard counter to that tactic planned. Your goal is to change your opponent's behaviour to benefit you.

Secondly, AFK cloakies in a quiet, underused system shut the system down. AFK cloakies in a busy system merely promote vigilance. I don't flee in terror if I warp into a system and see one war target in local.

Your third point is valid.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Thirdsin
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1025 - 2015-03-04 03:20:25 UTC
Here we go again...


Ok, I think I've made this folly slightly better guys:
My biggest problem with the SOV upheaval is that there needs to be a larger barrier to starting this capture process, an initial grind of the structure being attacked should be required (TCU, iHub, station etc) equivalent to a small POS (play with the HP level, but it should require a COMBAT fleet and some time securing the grid to become a threat). You've now given more time for the defenders to muster AND more importantly the small group passing through is of little threat to your SOV you've invested so much in. If you want to attack SOV with this mechanic, you best come correct.


Other 2cents

  • Echoing statements, far too OP for the attacker to troll and destroy, while providing little for the defender. I don't care to login and play 'sov patrol online' only to prevent small gangs from trolling through.

  • I like the idea of making this module Battleship only, maybe throw a bone to BCs and make it BC and up. But CCP PLZ, don't allow this on frigs or t3 dessies or even the damn orthrus for the love of all things sacred....

  • SOV to me, should be a place of larger battles, perhaps more frequently, but none the less. SOV shouldn't be this thing won and lost by kiting small gangs with little interest in the battleground they are fighting over. If I wanted that type of fight I'd go pew in lowsex.

  • Please stop sidelining caps. The people that fly them are some of the most invested in this damned timesink game of love, with a great many alts to support their love life. That said, there will come a breaking point and other games become a viable time investment if what you've spent so much time trying to obtain is made irrelevant at the benefit of 1mo trial newbros (no offense, <3 me some newbros).
  • Why do u hate diverse alliances? The late night Euros and early bird AU's make my (USEAST) Eve best Eve.


Proton Stars
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1026 - 2015-03-04 03:23:30 UTC
I have now actively posted in this thread for just under 3 prime times, yet I work a rolling shift pattern so I'll only be effective on my alliances prime time one week in 4. Guess I'll play elite or one of the x series on the other three weeks....
Saya Kerrigan
Doomheim
#1027 - 2015-03-04 03:24:04 UTC
Sadly.. I'm still not seeing ANY incentive for sov warfare...

There is NO reason for CFC to go invade NC. & their allies/renters and vise versa.. there's no reason for anyone to actually fight over sov.

Sure there's the reward of OWNING the sov & the moons that come with it but it's just not enough or worth the time I feel.

CCP NEEDS to either give some kinda other rewards or something for actually fighting / taking sov to begin with or find some way to force fights between alliances / coalitions...

I'm just gonna predict right now that even with these new "cool" sov mechanic changes... Nothings going to change. CFC and their allies will sit right where they are and NC n such will sit where they are.

Theres littery no reason for them to fight and unless some new entity is gonna rise up and try to challenge CFC + Allies or NC. + Allies yeah.. nothings changing anytime soon.

The last time anything sov based changed was when Tech moons n such changed.

That's where I stand.
Rain6637
NulzSec
#1028 - 2015-03-04 03:24:13 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
Proton Stars wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
So the best way to take sov is by constellation-wide deployments. heh. I thought one of the main premises was allowing sov to be local to a system?

FC was the old hotness, now there will be a CC or Constellation Coordinator?


Anyone would think they are trying to boost large alliance groups like goons

Most of the discussion assumes there will be conflict at all. I'm pretty sure there will be NEPs or Non Entosis Pacts.

That's why I'm worried about neutral Alts.

What happens when an NPC corp character activates an entosis module? Can the station's control still drop?
Proton Stars
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1029 - 2015-03-04 03:26:38 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
Proton Stars wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
So the best way to take sov is by constellation-wide deployments. heh. I thought one of the main premises was allowing sov to be local to a system?

FC was the old hotness, now there will be a CC or Constellation Coordinator?


Anyone would think they are trying to boost large alliance groups like goons

Most of the discussion assumes there will be conflict at all. I'm pretty sure there will be NEPs or Non Entosis Pacts.

That's why I'm worried about neutral Alts.

What happens when an NPC corp character activates an entosis module? Can the station's control still drop?



A plank bubble explodes and state war academy kill a puppy
Callic Veratar
#1030 - 2015-03-04 03:27:27 UTC
captain foivos wrote:
Here's the new cheapo sov-taking ship of the future.

Aligns in 1.7s, locks out to ~117km, goes ~4km/s. Good luck stopping a fleet of those from running around and targeting every structure they can find.

Nice align time. How do you expect to warp when the enosis module disables warping for it's full duration?
Milla Goodpussy
Garoun Investment Bank
#1031 - 2015-03-04 03:29:17 UTC
how come this SOV Change doesn't even mention the change or supposed changed for moons.. its like he's purposely protecting interest in this area..

and no Im never taking my tinfoil hat off..

wassup wit dat!
El'Grimm
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1032 - 2015-03-04 03:33:23 UTC
Gonna ramble a bit here...

If any smaller alliance thinks this system will allow them a foothold you are sorely mistaken, yes this system will allow you to harass the larger entities, but nothing more. There are something like fifteen large enough entities in eve that can EASILY drop a few hundred cheap ships on a whole region, so harass maybe, get a sov foothold.. keep dreaming. But sure take sov if you can, as they WILL be wanting to show you how this new system works.

Keeping sov is going to be like a chore with this system, no not fun pvp a damned chore of being on alert during your "prime" time, sitting around waiting for something to chase, think guaranteed gate-camps 4 hours a day reds or no reds.

Sov holders.. no more holidays for you without evacuating to npc stations first, the ratio of fun casual, to must be logged in every bloody day no exceptions is gonna kill player retention imo. This is loosely scheduled for June... odds on the debacle that happens on the 4th July holiday anyone?

40 minute timer... hahahaha iirc there are something like 3000+ player claimed systems, 40 minute timers, definitely not enough to even talk about them. I'm from provi, one of the most densely inhabited and industrialized player sov in all of eve, and I can tell you from our prelim data that our timers are way below 40 minutes as an average.

And talking of indexes, if the attack is serious you think those index's are gonna stay high? Hell no, the amount of tools available for a dedicated attacker with virtually zero risk available that can seriously hinder an index, vastly outweighs a defenders chance to keep that index up (no I didnt say fight them I said index, as thats now the strategic objective)

New system is so much more biased to the attacker, without needing the assets to grind down those hp's, a system can now be engaged by a dirt cheap ship. Sure someone will say ah but one ship can counter another single ship.. Heres my take on that.
Already said I'm not talking small entities here, I am talking bloc warfare, so it never will be just one ship, it will be hundreds, possibly thousands. Ok so instead of one cheap ship, say 210 come, so there first strike in cheap ****** ships is to engage 70 systems, ihub/station/TCU in every system, now assuming a say below provi index average.. in 15 minutes EVERY sov structure in 70 systems is now reinforced, all for the isk of a single dread. Simply put WAY to easy, and way way out the league of non bloc players. 15 bloody minutes, for throwaway isk for the blocs.
Even if you have fleets on stanby, its not one engagement to defend in this scenario, its 210 spread over an entire region, and oh its gonna be funny hearing about the spam alerts from the sov system alerts during this time :)
Someone said that even the t1 e-wand is very expensive at 20m, for a single module, bloc fleet doctrines for serious fleets range from 250m-1b, 20m is nothing in this game for a bloc player.
And remember even if assuming both sides have similar numbers, it sounds very dull for the hundreds of attackers who simply arent engaged, but still screw up the defenders sov.

You think my numbers are crazy, on simple past engagement sizes either of the 2 largest blocs could do this form of throwaway attack in 5-6 regions at the same time.. EACH. Still think its a good new system for newbros?

Constructive ideas using this god awful framework I guess...

Gotta increase the value of the e-wand, or make it only usable on something more expensive, if people are there for sov a reasonable amount of isk MUST be spent, if newbros cant afford anything other than t1 cheap crap, then they cant afford even the basics of taking sov anyway, and it would seriously stop the e-wand griefer issue, or the mass bloc attack.

You HAVE to seriously look at the timers issue, both in terms of first strike and following timers, few days away from the game cannot be punished as harshly as it will in this proposed system.

Prime time. I can see the reasoning, ccp clearly wants to break up the coalitions, and force division, isn't that simply a counterproductive goal to you know.. an MMO? As for the 4 hours, also perhaps a change of that vulnerable time related to index? Maybe base 6 hours minus time related to index average maybe?
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1033 - 2015-03-04 03:44:22 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
Proton Stars wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
So the best way to take sov is by constellation-wide deployments. heh. I thought one of the main premises was allowing sov to be local to a system?

FC was the old hotness, now there will be a CC or Constellation Coordinator?


Anyone would think they are trying to boost large alliance groups like goons

Most of the discussion assumes there will be conflict at all. I'm pretty sure there will be NEPs or Non Entosis Pacts.

That's why I'm worried about neutral Alts.

What happens when an NPC corp character activates an entosis module? Can the station's control still drop?

Idk. If a neut can do the initial interruptions of station services and such I don't have an issue, but if it can run down the timer at all on the capture/destroy phase, it might be undesirable.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1034 - 2015-03-04 03:45:21 UTC
Milla Goodpussy wrote:
how come this SOV Change doesn't even mention the change or supposed changed for moons.. its like he's purposely protecting interest in this area..

and no Im never taking my tinfoil hat off..

wassup wit dat!

Moon changes?
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Reckless Contingency.
#1035 - 2015-03-04 03:45:54 UTC
will be fleets of T3 destroyers orbiting at 180km doing 15km/s+ cap stable nuking station services etc
Tara Read
Doomheim
#1036 - 2015-03-04 03:46:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Tara Read
Looking at these changes for me personally gives me hope for a truly interactive and diverse Null Sec that many players have longed for for years. The Sovereignty issues that now plague many entities and players while isolating and incubating a select few, NEED to be changed for this game to have any potential future.

Those of us who have been around remember the fabled Great War, BOB, such clashes and of a bright eyed new underdog whom none of us thought would grow and prosper into what the CFC is today. Verily, I don't think anyone during these times could have seen nor imagined the power such Coalitions wield as they do today.

Supercapital Proliferation has been a mainstay of Power Bloc policy for years, mostly as a deterrent and mostly as a means of quickly retaking and regrinding structures should the need arise. We saw such policies come into play Pre Phoebe where the power projection of the Coalitions were limitless.

Phoebe was the first real step to shake up the stagnation of Eve. It's ripples are still being felt to this day with many powers having to carefully plan where as smaller groups including those in Low Sec no longer feel the sky is truly falling. And yet as much as this game has progressed I personally feel if Eve itself is to survive even another five years DRASTIC changes need to be made.

CCP (bless their bold hearts) have given many of the most vocal and adamant here the proverbial middle finger seeing beyond the long noses of a few Elite while the rest of this sandbox suffers. And suffer it shall! Unless CCP continues to undertake and develop bold new ideas to shake the very core of even the most powerful entities in New Eden.

Today marks another significant step toward changing and reinvigorating a game over a decade old. And for that I feel we ALL should be thankful. The fact that CCP have worked and continued to develop and bring forth radical changes to keep this game and it's players on it's toes is something worthy of merit and something we ALL should acknowledge regardless of our stances on SOV changes or the finite details regarding it.

As far as the changes proposed, removing structure grinds, neutering the Proliferation fleets of the Coalitions, while making entire regions vulnerable through interaction are bold and needed steps. To bypass the issues regarding the grind and to bring forth even these rough ideas is what is exactly needed. New blood. new ideas. New strategies.

For the naysayers, for those who cry what is SOV good for? I think CCP's keeping such things closer to their chest than we think. There are drastic new things happening with lore, Drifters, Stargates, etc. Be patient! Give CCP a chance to wow us and to enact bold changes to reinvigorate a tired and dried husk that is Null Sec.

There's a reason why a majority of us in Low Sec live here. Because simply without joining a coalition, without being part of the "hive" so to speak the chances of one striking out on their own as a smaller entity and actually holding Sov is 0% so long as you have no ties to bigger and more powerful entities.

Even worse, the grinds, the ability for Coalitions to regain SOV via Supercaps and grinding back structures leaves it dull and an impossibility for those smaller groups even entertaining the idea of striking out to Null for their own sake. Which leads me to another tangent:

Supers. Supers and Titans NEED defined roles. Supers themselves have many strengths but limited uses especially in a post era when these changes take place. I personally hope that CCP revamps and reworks Titans and Supers to give them truly unique strengths, and very unique weaknesses for those of us whom dare to fly such ships into combat.

Post Phoebe Supers and Titans have limited uses even now and without retooling these ships will find even less use except as Eve's own ICBM's for Coalitions to defend key systems. I'm assuming (and guessing) that CCP will release Super changes in tandem with these SOV changes.

And for those whom have cried for the last 54 pages. I DARE you to sit here and say the current SOV mechanics are fine the way they are. They aren't. They haven't been for years. Keep an open mind or suffer even more stagnation at the hands of complainers and those at the top who want no change or campaign for the CSM to rollback Phoebe changes so their own powerful friends can once again dominate New Eden with little to no consequence.

Do it CCP. No fear.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1037 - 2015-03-04 03:49:29 UTC
Ncc 1709 wrote:
will be fleets of T3 destroyers orbiting at 180km doing 15km/s+ cap stable nuking station services etc

And all you need is one ship with your own link to stop them. Any additional ships will be for picking off the T3s
Zip Slings
Shadow State
Goonswarm Federation
#1038 - 2015-03-04 03:52:46 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Ncc 1709 wrote:
will be fleets of T3 destroyers orbiting at 180km doing 15km/s+ cap stable nuking station services etc

And all you need is one ship with your own link to stop them. Any additional ships will be for picking off the T3s


Also, please show us the T3 fit and I'll show you the sniper ship that erases it
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1039 - 2015-03-04 03:53:11 UTC
Quote:
The Entosis Link module represents the central interaction mechanic of the new Sovereignty system (among its other uses)
i wonder what that bolder part means...
Proton Stars
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1040 - 2015-03-04 03:56:37 UTC
Proberbly farms Jove ships.