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A question regarding the privacy of EVE-mail.

First post
Author
CCP Falcon
#41 - 2015-02-14 18:57:17 UTC
Regardless of what you're doing in EVE, you should never EVEmail anything, to any player that you'd consider private or personal, because there's nothing to stop the other player forwarding it on to someone else or sharing it publicly via copypasta, or the API system.

Exactly the same with any real world email account you own. You can add any disclaimers you want to your email, but in the end, if someone wants to share it, then they can do and it's then up to you to action it or pick up the pieces.

If you're dabbling with the API and don't want someone to be able to see mail, then create a custom API rather than giving out your full one. You can do so here.

There are perfectly reasonable safeguards in place for you to protect the contents of your inbox, as seen here, and the strings "MailMessages", "MailingLists" and "MailBodies" are quite clearly displayed on the API Key Management page.

Quote:
"It is safe to provide your API key to applications and web sites as long as you are prepared to allow the application or web site to see your character and corporation information. You can specify which information is accessible for each customizable API key."


In addition to this, also see here. you should not be transmitting personal details within the game. The EVE Online client and EVE Gate are there to facilitate gameplay within the EVE Universe, not for you to share personally sensitive materials of yourself or others.

Quote:
"Except for certain information in your Account (discussed below), all transmissions by you to the System are not private. You acknowledge and agree that you have no expectation of privacy regarding communications you make in the Game, whether through private in-Game messaging, during chat, or in chat rooms."


Then you can also see here. We have specific rules in our Terms of Service relating to the transmission of personal information of yourself and others within our game client. You shouldn't be doing it.

Specfically Article 19:

Quote:
19. You may not communicate, post or publicize any subscriber’s personal information within the EVE Online game world or website.


We specifically say in all of our documents that nothing you transmit within EVE Online via EVEmail or chat is private, because if security or safety concerns arise on our part, or the part of a member of the community, we may need to look at messaging or pass it on to the relevant authorities for action.

In short, everyone else in this thread is right. You're forewarned of any privacy issues when you even join the game, let alone create an API key, and it's strongly suggested that you don't share anything that may be of a sensitive nature in the real world when playing EVE.

Hope this explains things.

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3

Candi LeMew
Division 13
#42 - 2015-02-14 18:58:21 UTC
Effect One wrote:
People think way too highly of their personal information. Tip: No one cares about your life.

Maybe you've found that's your personal experience.

But tell that to the two people who openly told me recently they used to read my mails regularly for nothing but sh*ts and giggles. Lol

Not that it upset me, they're both awesome guys + friends, but it still goes to show that you're wrong.

And it was enough to affirm I'm doing the right thing these days by refusing to give a full API. Didn't effect my joining this corp though. Dat vouch.

🍌

Remember... in Anoikis Bob Is Always Watching...

"I been kicked out of better homes than this" - Rick James

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#43 - 2015-02-14 19:22:49 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Regardless of what you're doing in EVE, you should never EVEmail anything, to any player that you'd consider private or personal, because there's nothing to stop the other player forwarding it on to someone else or sharing it publicly via copypasta, or the API system.


Sometimes it takes a CCP employee to carefully and politely explain that 2+2=4, big is more than small and that fire is hot.

Thanks for stepping up.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Indahmawar Fazmarai
#44 - 2015-02-14 19:39:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Indahmawar Fazmarai
CCP Falcon wrote:
Regardless of what you're doing in EVE, you should never EVEmail anything, to any player that you'd consider private or personal, because there's nothing to stop the other player forwarding it on to someone else or sharing it publicly via copypasta, or the API system.

Exactly the same with any real world email account you own. You can add any disclaimers you want to your email, but in the end, if someone wants to share it, then they can do and it's then up to you to action it or pick up the pieces.

If you're dabbling with the API and don't want someone to be able to see mail, then create a custom API rather than giving out your full one. You can do so here.

There are perfectly reasonable safeguards in place for you to protect the contents of your inbox, as seen here, and the strings "MailMessages", "MailingLists" and "MailBodies" are quite clearly displayed on the API Key Management page.

Quote:
"It is safe to provide your API key to applications and web sites as long as you are prepared to allow the application or web site to see your character and corporation information. You can specify which information is accessible for each customizable API key."


In addition to this, also see here. you should not be transmitting personal details within the game. The EVE Online client and EVE Gate are there to facilitate gameplay within the EVE Universe, not for you to share personally sensitive materials of yourself or others.

Quote:
"Except for certain information in your Account (discussed below), all transmissions by you to the System are not private. You acknowledge and agree that you have no expectation of privacy regarding communications you make in the Game, whether through private in-Game messaging, during chat, or in chat rooms."


Then you can also see here. We have specific rules in our Terms of Service relating to the transmission of personal information of yourself and others within our game client. You shouldn't be doing it.

Specfically Article 19:

Quote:
19. You may not communicate, post or publicize any subscriber’s personal information within the EVE Online game world or website.


We specifically say in all of our documents that nothing you transmit within EVE Online via EVEmail or chat is private, because if security or safety concerns arise on our part, or the part of a member of the community, we may need to look at messaging or pass it on to the relevant authorities for action.

In short, everyone else in this thread is right. You're forewarned of any privacy issues when you even join the game, let alone create an API key, and it's strongly suggested that you don't share anything that may be of a sensitive nature in the real world when playing EVE.

Hope this explains things.


Thanks for the clarification. I will repeat that I never created a full API, and certainly will never create one since it would compromise everything everyone ever entrusted me with, knowingly or don't.

Dunno why CCP as a company should provide players with that tool, though, but that would be another question. Making EVE corporation recruitment less paranoid and intrusive than RL also would make sense to me... but I may be in a tiny minority here. Blink
Vyl Vit
#45 - 2015-02-14 19:58:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Vyl Vit
Interesting point. Just because who you wrote to joins a corp which uses this API fascist management system, now anyone who happened to write the hapless player gets their message to him read as well, even though THEY aren't IN this corporation and have no prior knowledge, except in a very general way - meaning if you claim "prior knowledge/no foul" to be safe don't message ANYBODY EVER!

Absurdity is hilarious, no? Trust no one as a logical course of action? The only reason we managed to civilize ourselves is because we learned to trust one another. Now, as we ride the decline of civilization into the sunset we see these sorts of conundrums rise up. Hilarious! Big smile

"What do you think 'Full API' means?" Someone just had to say that. I certainly hope the question wasn't meant philosophically! I can't stop laughin'. Dial 911 for me.

WHY WAS IT PEOPLE STAY IN NPC CORPs AGAIN??


bwaaaa haaaaaa haaaaaaa haaaaaaaa suck on it purists.

EDIT: Oh. As far as "Don't use the message system 'cause someone can copy and paste and forward...." I guess that ditches email, snail mail (those damned copying machines) AND the telephone! SO, because we can't be trusted as a species, DON'T use ANY of the high tech com junk, 'cause someone might tell someone else what YOU SAID! Oh my. I can't catch my breath. My jaws ache. bwaaaaaaa haaaaaaaa haaaaaaa

Paradise is like where you are right now, only much, much better.

Effect One
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#46 - 2015-02-14 20:04:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Effect One
Candi LeMew wrote:
Effect One wrote:
People think way too highly of their personal information. Tip: No one cares about your life.

Maybe you've found that's your personal experience.

But tell that to the two people who openly told me recently they used to read my mails regularly for nothing but sh*ts and giggles. Lol

Not that it upset me, they're both awesome guys + friends, but it still goes to show that you're wrong.

And it was enough to affirm I'm doing the right thing these days by refusing to give a full API. Didn't effect my joining this corp though. Dat vouch.


No, people reading your mail 'for ***** and giggles' does not prove that people care about your life. Why you would even provide personal information to people by Evemail of all things is beyond me, but there we go.

The juxtaposition between you being upset about personal information being viewable to others through Evemail access rights, and you even providing it in an Evemail to complete strangers within a video game in the first place, is quite frankly baffling.

'I care so much about my personal information being kept private that it upsets me to think strangers might read it if I provide them with an API key that gives them full access to my account. I have no qualms, however, about providing it to other strangers who I know slightly better via an in game mail delivery system in relation to which I have no idea as to its security of content.'

'This might be internet spaceships, but it's not rocket science to protect yourself and fly with a little common sense' - CCP Falcon

Candi LeMew
Division 13
#47 - 2015-02-14 20:10:50 UTC
Effect One wrote:
Candi LeMew wrote:
Effect One wrote:
People think way too highly of their personal information. Tip: No one cares about your life.

Maybe you've found that's your personal experience.

But tell that to the two people who openly told me recently they used to read my mails regularly for nothing but sh*ts and giggles. Lol

Not that it upset me, they're both awesome guys + friends, but it still goes to show that you're wrong.

And it was enough to affirm I'm doing the right thing these days by refusing to give a full API. Didn't effect my joining this corp though. Dat vouch.


No, people reading your mail 'for ***** and giggles' does not prove that people care about your life. Why you would even provide personal information to people by Evemail of all things is beyond me, but there we go.

The juxtaposition between you being upset about personal information being viewable to others through Evemail access rights, and you even providing it in an Evemail to complete strangers within a video game in the first place, is quite frankly baffling.

I'm not upset, nor was it personal information in my mails.

What exactly was being read, well, that's none of your business, only the intended recipient's. Blink

I simply believe there's really no point in mail API even being a thing at all. If there was then why isn't every game doing it? In fact most take drastic steps in quite the opposite direction, both from fear of legalities and simple respect for their users.

🍌

Remember... in Anoikis Bob Is Always Watching...

"I been kicked out of better homes than this" - Rick James

Serene Repose
#48 - 2015-02-14 20:12:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Serene Repose
I know. I shopped yesterday. If I tell someone I shopped, then they could tell someone else I shopped, then there's a strong likelihood people will discover I shop. Oh my. This is too close for comfort. I bought some shoes yesterday. Now, if I tell someone I bought some shoes, TWO bits of information slip that could seriously damage me; I shop and I buy SHOES!!

How did things come to this pass? Wait....I just showed concern. Now people know I'm concerned. This gets sticky fast. I'm concerned about....shopping? telling someone I shopped? someone telling someone I shopped someone knowing I shopped, that I wear shoes, buy shoes bought shoes???

Maybe I should pay a security apparatus an obscene amount of money to protect me, and my personal information...like what do I eat, what color of shirts do I like, who's my favorite bowler....EEK! MODERN LIFE SUCKS! But...it's here. Cool

We must accommodate the idiocracy.

Jimmy Farrere
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2015-02-14 20:24:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Jimmy Farrere
I can 100% see the OP's point here and can only assume that the people saying this is acceptable are still missing the point.

I never considered when communicating with someone I fully trust through Eve-mail that their future carelessness (not betrayal) could lead to them revealing personal information about me to entire swathes of people (including a load of people that might not like my in-game persona much!).

Indeed, a quick look back through my Eve-mail shows that I've sent people I trust my personal phone number multiple times 'safe' in the knowledge that I would never allow people access to MY full API.

This needs addressing in my opinion.
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#50 - 2015-02-14 20:36:03 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Thanks for the clarification. I will repeat that I never created a full API, and certainly will never create one since it would compromise everything everyone ever entrusted me with, knowingly or don't.

Dunno why CCP as a company should provide players with that tool, though, but that would be another question. Making EVE corporation recruitment less paranoid and intrusive than RL also would make sense to me... but I may be in a tiny minority here. Blink

Make your own EVE corp and run it however you want. Don't tell others how to run theirs.
Concord Guy's Cousin
Doomheim
#51 - 2015-02-14 20:38:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Concord Guy's Cousin
Jimmy Farrere wrote:
Indeed, a quick look back through my Eve-mail shows that I've sent people I trust my personal phone number multiple times
Which is an EULA breach as per CCP Falcons post, specifically:
Quote:
19. You may not communicate, post or publicize any subscriber’s personal information within the EVE Online game world or website.
Any subscriber includes yourself.

ISD LackOfFaith ~ "Your Catalyst was a hamster, and your Retriever smelt of elderberries"

NPC Forum Alt, because reasons.

Pok Nibin
Doomheim
#52 - 2015-02-14 20:38:58 UTC
I wish to personally thank the OP for asking this question, and bringing up this point. I'm happy to learn CCP thinks so little of me, that even though they live in a state that protects their right to privacy in their letters and other communication, which includes criminal penalties if violated (fines and prison time), that they can come here and create a system that not only entirely disregards my right to this, does this while I'm paying them money, and then blames me should anything untoward occur.

I think I have the measure of these "people" now.

The right to free speech doesn't automatically carry with it the right to be taken seriously.

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#53 - 2015-02-14 20:39:15 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:


Go back to reading comprehension 101. I've never needed a full API, so when should I have learned that OTHERS giving THEIR full APIs would compromise MY evemails to them?


I can see your concern with this.

I've never given much thought to the matter as I tend to only receive (hate) mail and not send it. Though there is stuff in some mails I have sent that, while not embarrassing or anything, is stuff I would not want known in general.

Maybe CCP should come up with some kind of 'snapmail' that deletes itself after a period of time.

It's one thing to expect no privacy if I give my full API to a corp, but it's a little concerning that my privacy will be compromised if somebody else gives theirs.

Mr Epeen Cool
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#54 - 2015-02-14 20:42:22 UTC
Pok Nibin wrote:
I wish to personally thank the OP for asking this question, and bringing up this point. I'm happy to learn CCP thinks so little of me, that even though they live in a state that protects their right to privacy in their letters and other communication, which includes criminal penalties if violated (fines and prison time), that they can come here and create a system that not only entirely disregards my right to this, does this while I'm paying them money, and then blames me should anything untoward occur.

I think I have the measure of these "people" now.

No, you really don't.
Pok Nibin
Doomheim
#55 - 2015-02-14 20:43:20 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Pok Nibin wrote:
I wish to personally thank the OP for asking this question, and bringing up this point. I'm happy to learn CCP thinks so little of me, that even though they live in a state that protects their right to privacy in their letters and other communication, which includes criminal penalties if violated (fines and prison time), that they can come here and create a system that not only entirely disregards my right to this, does this while I'm paying them money, and then blames me should anything untoward occur.

I think I have the measure of these "people" now.

No, you really don't.
BS

The right to free speech doesn't automatically carry with it the right to be taken seriously.

Indahmawar Fazmarai
#56 - 2015-02-14 20:49:24 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:


Go back to reading comprehension 101. I've never needed a full API, so when should I have learned that OTHERS giving THEIR full APIs would compromise MY evemails to them?


I can see your concern with this.

I've never given much thought to the matter as I tend to only receive (hate) mail and not send it. Though there is stuff in some mails I have sent that, while not embarrassing or anything, is stuff I would not want known in general.

Maybe CCP should come up with some kind of 'snapmail' that deletes itself after a period of time.

It's one thing to expect no privacy if I give my full API to a corp, but it's a little concerning that my privacy will be compromised if somebody else gives theirs.

Mr Epeen Cool


Kudos on getting the point, a rare thing in this thread.

CCP's attitude is perfectly logical (they can't be responsible of what they can't control) but the API system, what it can be used for and how that could end for someone unaware, it's CCP's doing. Is the mail necessary for API? I don't know for sure.

I think that a spy will never use the same account for getting his spy-mail, so it is a lame way to check prospect recruits. Yet then, in EVE things can go so horribly bad that nobody risks telling his corp mates that a spy infiltrated because cheking his evemails was a lame thing to do.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2015-02-14 21:17:25 UTC
Sniper Smith wrote:
EVEMail isn't EMail. Don't use it for personal thing.



you shouldn't be using EMail for personal stuff aswell :D
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#58 - 2015-02-14 21:45:13 UTC
Don't use anything for personal stuff ever.
Just don't be personal. Dissociate from your body. Upload your brain to the cloud.
Bloody Slave
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#59 - 2015-02-14 21:50:12 UTC
Isn't the rule number 1 in EVE "TRUST NO ONE"?

I don't know how many EVE players play alone or in NPC Corps or in 1 man Corps just because of that said "rule" but CCP Dev team, sure, have the answer and, if they don't bother much in changing it is because they think is working as intended.

Once, when I left EVE for the 1st time, back in 2010 I guess, I answered a survey saying why I was leaving the game. It changed nothing and I'm back. I can't stay away from EVE more than 6 months, but I know a lot of people that don't come back and I miss them all. Player retention is a problem? CCP have that answer as well.

Cry

If your balls are hurt and bleeding don't sit in a pool full of piranhas (note to myself: don't complain in GD)

Godfrey Silvarna
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#60 - 2015-02-14 21:51:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Godfrey Silvarna
Pok Nibin wrote:
even though they live in a state that protects their right to privacy in their letters and other communication, which includes criminal penalties if violated (fines and prison time), that they can come here and create a system that not only entirely disregards my right to this, does this while I'm paying them money, and then blames me should anything untoward occur.

I am fairly certain that the law in Iceland does not protect you or CCP from the risk that anyone you or CCP sends mail to, electronic or physical, might publish your mutual communications.

When someone shares messages you have sent them with someone else, trough the API or otherwise, it is between you and them and CCP has nothing to do with it and should not have anything to do with it. If they explicitly agreed to keep your secrets and then applied to a corp that for whatever reason demands full API, then THEY have broken that trust, not CCP. No rule in EVE says that corporations should demand full API or that everyone should apply to corporations where they demand full API. It is something us players have decided ourselves.