Player Features and Ideas Discussion

I know this isn't the most discussed topic but this seems like a rather harsh inconvenience for the Caldari/ Minmatar. The Gallente/ Amarr don't need to worry about really cross training anything. However now Minmatar recon pilots will be REQUIRED to train missiles to fly the cloaked ship. While the Lore concept works for the command ship, it seems rather hampering for the recons. Particularly since a lot of scouts are alts who are not training. All those alts will now be required to train missiles if they even want to have any defense on the rapier. I would personally recommend taking one of two approaches to fix the problem.

A) Make Caldari/ Minmatar ships like the Fleet Scythe in that they all have dual weapon bonuses
B) Go the same route you already went with Command ships by making both viable. Ex. all recons can equip cloak, at the expense of a high slot.

edit: by going the second route you would also be able to eliminate the silly d-scan invisibility as both ships can warp/sit cloaked at that point

The guy thought he couldn't hack a can and scan with combat probes at the same time. I pointed out that he could, and now he'll be safer for it. My point is that not everybody arguing in this thread knows how every mechanic works, including myself. If I see a place where somebody would benefit from knowledge then I give it to them, just the same as I read others posts to gather info I didn't have.



T3's exist now and with similar fits they cost 2-3x as much as Recons. You don't have to faction fit a T3 to pull off a cloaky gank. They are also quite prevalent, there are people flying T3's for PvP in every area of the game. People keep saying that "this makes blah blah blah more dangerous" and I'm pointing out that it doesn't. It gives those who would attack you some additional options, but they already have some good options as it is.

It would be more accurate to say that I am saying "Be careful, there are both piranhas and alligators in this water." But more realistically the number of assailants is going to stay about the same, you just don't know if they will show up in a piranha suit or an alligator suit... and really, does it matter? You're gonna get eaten either way if you aren't careful.

Force recons lose ability to cloak, but gain dscan immunity, combat recons get HAC resists and bigger EHP pool. I mean whats the point of one being able to cloak and the other having a semi-cloak, but neither are good in a fleet role.

Id be happy to jump a gate in null with the lone sabre with falcon alt, and actually see the risk averse ******* before trying to engage. may not show up on dscan, but at least i know a falcon is there on gate when i jump in.

Just a thought.

Or better yet, if oyu live out there just ditch the ships in the belt and get into the CR's. You'd be amazed at how many people take that bait since it's EXACTLY what it looks like to them.

Saying the d-scan immunity doesn't offer something new to the game is just false. It is introducing a "cloak" that:

• you can't go AFK without the risk of getting popped. (Eliminating deep-safes was another change that helped in this direction.)
• you can't use for tower warp-ins or on-grid intel.
• you can't use for fleet warp-ins because you'll get popped
• you can't use for cov-ops cyno activities (because the force recon is balanced for this with lower DPS).
• does make some ganks easier, but after five years of continuous nerfs to this play-style I think we're in safe territory.
• you don't have to remember to turn it on. BFD. (edit) Granted, CCP does have to figure out how ot balance this for people logging with aggression.

As for the fleet viability, I thought about this a bit more. In CCP Rise's statement, he didn't say that he would go back to the existing resist profile. He may make the resist profile such that addition of hardeners would make it viable for fleet at the expense of some EWAR functionality; Or, he can tune it so that it would be viable in a typical null-sec fleet but only with the addition of a slightly higher mix of logistics. It may still be viable for fleet action. We just don't know until he comes back from vacation. Its not an either-or.

So, I say, keep your pants on until the changes are clarified. I'm hopeful that a creative change like the d-scan immunity can be balanced with other play styles.


O. Faeces

Its always most fun when people miss their own point! Now you are arguing that there is no change in the combat recon for many of the features of this limited 'cloak' but you still don't want it. This is because you're original point was that you want the T2 resists INSTEAD.

My last paragraph, which you conveniently ignored in your response, explains why it is not necessarily an either-or decision between T2 resists and d-scan immunity. The resists can be adjusted to make them fleet capable. Its not that hard to imagine how that would work. If Rise wants to make combat recons Cov-Ops capable instead of d-scan immune, thats fine by me, but it does miss an opportunity to adjust the cloak mechanics in a way that discourages AFK cloaking by making pilots trade off DPS or cargo space for cloaks and/or depots.

And to answer your question about whether combat recons will be more used with the d-scan immunity, my answer is yes it will. This limited 'cloak' capabiliity will have an effect on their use, and its nonsense to argue that it wont. There are many other changes in his list that help with this and there are lots of other issues to discuss, but the answer is yes.


O. Faeces

I took a moment to run the numbers for the null-sec HAC loadouts that were popular in my days in 0.0 (recent history on another toon). Using 3 mid-slots the HAC achieved 11k - 27k EHP (depending on damage type). We usually achieved very robust fleet tank with about 7-8 logistics for the group. Now, to tank up a combat recon with the resists as they were, we needed to plug a resist hole, so to achieve comparable tank numbers (13k - 27k EHP) on the combat recon we needed 4 mids. So these recons were as durable as the HACs and fit in with the same ratio of logistics to combat ships. This left 3 mids left for EWAR or tackle. Not a great tradeoff but reasonable for the cost, especially if the recons were huginn or lachesis which give the fleet robust tackle bonuses.

Now, if I try the same thing with a celestis or a blackbird, and use 4 mids for tank, I can't get more than 8k - 14k EHP, which will need a higher number of logis in fleet and more likely that they can be popped before logistics get on them. It just wont work. Furthermore, this means only 1-2 mids remain for EWAR. This is not viable for HAC+Logi fleet disciplines. So, I'm not sure what you mean by, "Did you know that a Blackbird can perform the exact same functionality as a Rook for a fraction of the cost." It is a statement, that in light of your interest in fleet viability of combat recons, is plainly false in my experience. Is there another cruiser fleet discpline that you had in mind when you made this statement? If not, I'm just not sure how to respond to your claims.



Given my explanation above, I certainly think there is a cost advantage to the combat recon over the T3 in the fleet context, regardless of recent market trends. You are right that they can still fit a cloak module. If the d-scan invulnerability experiment goes well, I wouldn't be surprised if there were ... additional changes to all cloaks in the future. Think about it...


O. Faeces

edit -- I should mention that the fleet arrangement is much less beneficial for Force Recons, as they stand. The resist profile results in fewer than 3 remaining mids (in all cases), usually only 1 remains, to make the tank viable. So, there's little overlap in that sense -- the force recon's role as cloaky scout/cyno/cov-ops/etc is not an issue. Adding a form of sneakiness to the Combat recon is a viable way to get it used in other settings.

Ok, I've got to ask...if we are talking about actually fleet operations - the d-scan immunity seems to me will be even of lesser value. Once you get even a small fleet up the EWAR capability is in far greater demand than any theoretical "recon" function it could preform...there are simply better ships for that but nothing better for EWAR.

Honestly...really seems like the combat recon aren't anything to do with "recon" they are much more of a Electronic Attack Cruiser. To that end, they should probably be treated as such.

In reference to your point earlier about HP differences between the Blackbird and Rook..you are correct there is a difference. My numbers weren't quite as dramatic as yours but your set up makes sense. That said, a decently skilled Blackbird pilot can jam a lot of targets from a very long range...much longer than the Rook. So can a Blackbird do at least as good of a job disrupting a fleet as a Rook, yes, it can. Not always by any stretch but that certainly doesn't mean it's not at least nearly as effective.

I won't go into the T3 bit since CCP Rise did make it pretty clear there is a future pass on T3's and the sound of it is that they will be noticeably toned down across several facets.

There are some that would rather d-scan immunity not come into the game at all...again, I am not one of them. I think its a novel mechanic; I just don't value it perhaps to the degree that you do

I totally disagree that discussions about the Rook/Falcon aren't relevant to the Recon ship discussion...all Recon ships are getting reworked, including Rooks and Falcons. Several role / hull perks are changing and that makes it specifically the purview of the discussion points that at least I have been trying to engage you in. This thread is not specifically focused on the d-scan immunity component of the Recon ship update and I'm addressing things from the perspective of the ships themselves and not just that sole component. If you think that's "emo"...lol...you have a very different definition of that than i do.

The 4 racial recon ships all use different flavors of non-lethal effects to augment the fight such as neuts, damps, painters, and ECM. That is being addressed (in the form of bonuses and such) along with DPS, eHP, general hull changes, etc in this update, correct? I'm pretty sure that it is so what I'm discussing is specific to the Caldari hulls in this manner.

As i've noted i'm totally fine with the d-scan immunity being in play. Rise indicating that he felt the d-scan immunity in conjunction with T2 resists would be too powerful and most of what i've seen since his announcement is advocating that folks would rather have the resists in lieu of the D-scan immunity based on what they feel are relative value of each capability.

You did make an earlier point that it is very possible that Rise & Co will increase the resists from current levels to something below the HAC level. I don't speak for anyone else on this but my perception of his comments (which i went back and looked at again) is that they didn't want the ships too powerful in small gang fights. I happen to disagree that they will be anymore OP in small fleets than any number of ships out there.

As for your comments on Recons as part of larger HAC-centric fleets...sure i'll buy that. That is also one specific type of fleet comp and not the complete picture of things. You are correct that ECM / ECCM is a topic in and of itself, no argument there, and I'm not fencing with folks on that in here either. I'm specifically addressing ships and the greater Recon role in the ship stable of the game.

First of all, recons in a HAC fleet are focused on adding tackle and EWAR capability while having a tank that is consistent with the fleet. Same thing would go for a BS fleet. If they have any DPS at all it is a tertiary factor. Your inclusion of spaghetti tackle and neuts is... quaint but not the best use of a pod pilot. If you had proper skills/wallet your FC would have demanded something much more focused from you.

Second, the EHP numbers I stated were only for the shields (since thats all that matters for logi compatibility). The total EHP of the HACs I was describing is no less than 35k EHP, and up to 45k for the higher resisted damage types. Your 28k EHP BB is actually only 23k (and thats not even the worst pattern!!) when looking at the armor (again, for logi compatibility). Your fit is not viable for fleet as it will be alpha'd off the field before logi reps can do anything about it. The range benefit is unlikely to be of much advantage against fleet-HACs or fleet-BS since they can easily apply damage at that range. On the otherhand, a Rook could be viable in a shield-fleet from a tank perspective. Notice that Rise doubled down on making the Rook unsuitable for armor tanking in the proposed changes.

Finally, your point was that T2 resists are a preferable buff to d-scan immunity, but my post showed something very clearly -- that HAC/logi fleets are already viable with combat recons. So I don't see your point. Indeed, you have failed to make any argument that doesn't crumble for lack of understanding of the game. You proved that there are certain cases where scrub targets find it harder to deal with your 70km BB than a rook sitting at 30km. WTF does that have to do with d-scan immunity as an innovative new mechanic.

Your continued issue with the Rook/Blackbird balance is further evidence that your concern really has NOTHING to do with d-scan immunity. It's really about the relative positions of the rook and blackbird specifically, as well as how ECM works (or doesn't work) in large scale engagements. While the rook bonuses may indeed need work, you continue to miss that d-scan immunity has nothing fundamental to do with the caldari EWar issues. Caldari Ewar issues are only 1/4th of the recon story, and ECM is the root cause for that, not the tank on your Rook.

I urge you to cross train the other races so that you will have to tools you need to solve the different challenges you face in game. Focusing only on one race pigeon-holes you. Your narrow view of how the rook/blackbird performance affects the whole recon picture is evidence of very limited experience in the game. Maybe it is an area that needs to be addressed but not at the expense of the overall balance changes needed for recons.


O. Faeces