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Update regarding Multiboxing and input automation

First post First post First post
Author
Agent Intrepid
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1161 - 2014-11-26 10:40:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Agent Intrepid
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
I don't think detecting broadcasts from good logs will be hard. If it is done properly that is. And all the people i know that isbox have no intention of cheating. They love playing eve. And please don't start with the "but it is cheating", you probably think that anyone with more accounts than you is cheating, that anyone that has more isk that you is cheating etc......

As for extra local software to catch people. Well i run wine on linux, i have 2 account and thinking of a third. I don't use isboxer because i am on linux. In fact every instance of eve is run on a fresh instance of wine. So as far as eve the client can tell, it is on a windows machine with absolutely nothing else running on the machine.

There are quite a lot of us out there. And even some of the eve devs are on linux, running eve.


And yet several isboxer users have already posted about how they will circumvent input broadcasting detection using intentional delays, something which isboxer apparently has a built in option for.

Those people are making an admission of intention to break the eula. Isbotters is the correct term for them. I hope CCP will have an effective means to detect and enforce the eula against such people.
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1162 - 2014-11-26 10:43:59 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
There's literally no way for them to detect people using mouse/keyboard drivers to bind multiple key presses to one button. None.


Eve Online EULA Section 7:

Quote:
D. MONITORING

You agree that CCP may remotely monitor your Game hardware solely for the purpose of establishing whether in playing the Game and accessing the System you are using software created or approved by CCP, or whether you are using unauthorized software created by you or a third party in contravention of Section 6.


You should really read the EULA next time.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#1163 - 2014-11-26 10:44:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
Agent Intrepid wrote:
I hope CCP will have an effective means to detect and enforce their eula against such people.

Not without stuffing your computer full of malware.

Adrie Atticus wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
There's literally no way for them to detect people using mouse/keyboard drivers to bind multiple key presses to one button. None.


Eve Online EULA Section 7:

Quote:
D. MONITORING

You agree that CCP may remotely monitor your Game hardware solely for the purpose of establishing whether in playing the Game and accessing the System you are using software created or approved by CCP, or whether you are using unauthorized software created by you or a third party in contravention of Section 6.


You should really read the EULA next time.

There's only so much they can do with monitoring alone. To actually be effective, we'd have to be talking about active modification. Is that in the EULA as well?

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#1164 - 2014-11-26 10:45:06 UTC
Agent Intrepid wrote:


And yet several isboxer users have already posted about how they will circumvent input broadcasting detection using intentional delays, something which isboxer apparently has a built in option for.

Those people are making an admission of intention to break the eula. Isbotters is the correct term for them. I hope CCP will have an effective means to detect and enforce their eula against such people.

For myself, I am pointing out that proper detection of such bad actors is hard without a fairly high false positive rate.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

Ormand Audel
Doomheim
#1165 - 2014-11-26 10:47:45 UTC
Agent Intrepid wrote:
The Ironfist wrote:
Anyone using ISboxer with half a brain is simply gonna double down for the next month:) Bloodraider smart-bomb ratting is making me 2b per hour in isk and about 1b in loot and svalage after seeing the "news" all I did was resub 4 more accounts next 4 weeks I'm simply gonna smart-bomb 12h a day so that after the first of January I'll never have to do it again. If I can keep it up to 12h a day gonna make close to 2 tril isk the next 30 days.And really what does that change you can still use keybinds just not across clients and you can still use roaming keys you can still use videoFX. Isboxer still gives you an insane edge over the plebs who don't use it or don't know how to correctly use it. Broadcasting was just a easy-mode thing.


You make 2 billion isk an hour smartbomb ratting, and expect to make a trillion isk over the next month? Sounds like something CCP would want to look into.
Uh..
2b from bounties.
1b from loot/salvage.
That's 3b/hour.
3*12=36
36*30=1080.
Not sure how he's going to make close to 2tril since his math comes out to 1080b, but it's still over a tril.
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Nemed Bererund wrote:
So no more Eve-Central Market crawler then?


CREST provides that data already.
Isn't that a feature coming in december?
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1166 - 2014-11-26 10:49:12 UTC
Agent Intrepid wrote:
The Ironfist wrote:
Anyone using ISboxer with half a brain is simply gonna double down for the next month:) Bloodraider smart-bomb ratting is making me 2b per hour in isk and about 1b in loot and svalage after seeing the "news" all I did was resub 4 more accounts next 4 weeks I'm simply gonna smart-bomb 12h a day so that after the first of January I'll never have to do it again. If I can keep it up to 12h a day gonna make close to 2 tril isk the next 30 days.And really what does that change you can still use keybinds just not across clients and you can still use roaming keys you can still use videoFX. Isboxer still gives you an insane edge over the plebs who don't use it or don't know how to correctly use it. Broadcasting was just a easy-mode thing.


You make 2 billion isk an hour smartbomb ratting, and expect to make a trillion isk over the next month? Sounds like something CCP would want to look into.



Let's humor his claims for a moment.
Claim 1: he can make 2b/hour isk, 1b/hour loot and salvage, so 3b/hour
Claim 2: he can rat uninterrupted for up to 12hr/day for the next 30 days
Claim 3: he can make close to 2 tril isk in that 30 day period

3bil/hour, 12 hours a day = 36bil/day. * 30 days = 1.08 trillion.
Never trust a man who can't do SIMPLE math, when he tells you how much isk he is making. I'm willing to bet the guy thinks isk server ticks are every 5-10 minutes, too.
Leza MercenaryS
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1167 - 2014-11-26 10:51:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Leza MercenaryS
I really don't see how this is gonna make mining any more viable. Seems like a lot of people are confusing botting and isboxing, simply put botting doesn't require a player and isboxing does. The repeater is hardly used in ore mining anyways, you still have to micro manage lasers as rocks pop differently for all your miners. Most miners just use isboxer for the window setup.

This is like the 4th indirect nerf to mining that have happened in a very short amount. With the warp speed changes and moving mining sites into anomalys, miners pretty much lost the means to use rorqs or freighters to haul ore from the anomaly. And the ceptor changes made the risk / gain even less attractive, and its not like the ore prices are going up that much because the bots are pretty much unaffected and keep chugging out ore like nobodys business.

I stopped mining with the ceptor changes and never looked back. This change seems more like the final nail in the coffin for active mining then the rebirth of it. Wonder how many isboxing users that are just gonna turn to botting after this change, I mean if you risk getting banned either way...
Josef Djugashvilis
#1168 - 2014-11-26 10:54:29 UTC
It has become very fashionable for folk to threaten to rage quit with their zillion accounts with each change CCP make to the game.

I only have one account, am I doing it wrong?

This is not a signature.

Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1169 - 2014-11-26 10:54:50 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Agent Intrepid wrote:
I hope CCP will have an effective means to detect and enforce their eula against such people.

Not without stuffing your computer full of malware.

Adrie Atticus wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
There's literally no way for them to detect people using mouse/keyboard drivers to bind multiple key presses to one button. None.


Eve Online EULA Section 7:

Quote:
D. MONITORING

You agree that CCP may remotely monitor your Game hardware solely for the purpose of establishing whether in playing the Game and accessing the System you are using software created or approved by CCP, or whether you are using unauthorized software created by you or a third party in contravention of Section 6.


You should really read the EULA next time.

There's only so much they can do with monitoring alone. To actually be effective, we'd have to be talking about active modification. Is that in the EULA as well?


The scope of the software used to monitor the game is unknown, but we know it at least actively scans the memory space of the client and hooks to a few DLL's, but distinguishing someone who can press F1 to F8 in 100ms by hand or via automation is a different thing. Sure, they could detect what software is driving the keyboard but do they want to tackle every single keyboard driver?

I'm expecting it to be more along the lines "excessive usage == bad" where someone just creates macros to do everything instead of only activating the tank.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#1170 - 2014-11-26 10:55:50 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
You can very easily randomize the delay using most software solutions.


Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Too bad I'm talking strictly about hardware macros


Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Suggestion: learn how to read.


Roll
Prince Kobol
#1171 - 2014-11-26 10:57:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Prince Kobol
Quick question, not sure if it has been answered but here I go.

What about keyboard / mouse key mapping?

For example I have a Logitech G710+ so I am able to map multiple keys just to 1.

I am sure that many Eve players do the same thing so is this still allowed?

For a very quick example, I can map all the keyboard shortcuts to overload certain modules to 1 key.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#1172 - 2014-11-26 10:58:19 UTC
Not falling for it.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

RUS Comannder
Writing Memoirs
#1173 - 2014-11-26 10:59:19 UTC
From strictly a business standpoint along with my view of the way IS boxer covets its reputation to not create anything which violates the rules of a game, I think everyone can be certain that a lot of discussion will take place between IS Boxer and Eve, so IS Boxer can be sure they are not doing anything to get their customers banned from Eve. That would be an extremely stupid move on their part.

I think they don't mind having thin margins between their content on the extreme coming fairly close to the outer edge cases of Eve's rules. They will be sure of making a product that will keep them a viable provider across many gaming platforms. Eve is a small part of their business and their basic package is modified into a product acceptable to every gaming platform rules committee.

Let's get something straight about third party products. First, try running Eve on a computer that does not have a third Operating System installed, or video card, sound card, mouse drivers, keyboard, DirectX and probably a few dozen or hundred more. I know, the really butthurt will say those programs aren't meant to run "botting" programs, well, neither is IS Boxer. IS Boxer cannot allow you to go to the movies and still have your scam appear every 22.185 seconds along with a cheerleader positng a wonderful thing about your scam in between every other scam post. Is boxer cannot mine for you or run a repetitive agent courier mission for you while you are afk. If you are going to use Is boxer, you must be present and nothing happens until you press a key or click a mouse. There are no timers, no macros, so scripts. You may become confused if you go to the IS Boxer site and see references to macros, because some games allow macros and IS Boxer was originally designed for WOW and I understand WOW has built in macros as part of the game. When IS Boxer writes instructions, there are so many clauses for different games it becomes very hard to follow and there is not enough business for them it seems to write a manual exclusively for Eve.

The author of IS Boxer was on Redditt early today or yesterday, and stated he would write in a stop for any game violating behavior and it would be applied when you choose the game you are going to play. And no, you cannot pick WOW and then play Eve.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#1174 - 2014-11-26 11:00:20 UTC
GeeBee wrote:
I do have to say that if mirrored input broadcasting isn't detectible and dealt with quickly and automatically this is going to be a very rough and annoying process relying on players policing each other with a silly amount of witchhunt and accusations going on between players that shouldn't be happening. If you cannot stop it without players reporting each or micro scoping players manually to detect it then this entire policy change is a load of uselessness and exercise in futility. Since botting is still a problem and identifying bots and reporting them is still a problem I am doubtful, but please prove me wrong.


isbotter are obvious. report, CCP will check logs and ban the player.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1175 - 2014-11-26 11:02:47 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
It has become very fashionable for folk to threaten to rage quit with their zillion accounts with each change CCP make to the game.

I only have one account, am I doing it wrong?


Of course you're not. It just means you've already ragequit your zillion accounts and only have one left Lol

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#1176 - 2014-11-26 11:04:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
RUS Comannder wrote:
The author of IS Boxer was on Redditt early today or yesterday, and stated he would write in a stop for any game violating behavior and it would be applied when you choose the game you are going to play. And no, you cannot pick WOW and then play Eve.

In my line of work unemployment, this is commonly known as an "externality."

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#1177 - 2014-11-26 11:08:09 UTC
HypoConDreAct wrote:

1: Your still going to get bomb by multiboxers.

...

3: Your still are going to get ganked by Multiboxers maybe not on the scale that they could do it before but i cant see it been an issue where you wont see it anymore.

4. People will still Mutlibox INCs as waiting for fleets sucks (there time to do sites will drop and you might only see VG mulitboxers)


I think you missed a very important detail, the whole thread is not about multiboxing but about automated multiboxing.

You can fly 10 bombers or 10 incursion machariels, as long as you have to control them all manually its ok for most people including me.
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#1178 - 2014-11-26 11:08:25 UTC
eiedu wrote:
RIP incursions
RIP Ratting
RIP bombing

Time to go back to wow, where it makes no sense to have multiple accounts

How are you even going to "catch" people who are input-multiplexing hardware-wise


Event and input logging. In other words : much easier than you'd think.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#1179 - 2014-11-26 11:13:23 UTC
Hulky Boy wrote:
People complaining about others using programs like is-boxer are those that are too lazy to use scouts to check if there are 30 man gangs

this is not the point. I dont WANT to have to deal with people isbottong fleet of 30. Thankfully, CCP dealt with it finally.
Josef Djugashvilis
#1180 - 2014-11-26 11:16:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Josef Djugashvilis
To all those who intend to 'bend' the rules regarding ISboxer

It is good to see that gambling has been taken to a new level: my ability to circumvent the rules, bets that CCP will not be able to tell and perma ban my zillion accounts.

High stakes indeed.

This is not a signature.