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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

First post First post First post
Author
Endo Saissore
Afterburners of Eve'il Inc.
#4381 - 2014-10-02 22:20:12 UTC
Endo Saissore wrote:
P4nty w44d wrote:
TimeDrawsNigh wrote:
Endo Saissore wrote:
TimeDrawsNigh wrote:
Counter proposal for the jump delay timer.

Link below is a google excel doc. of cumulative delay timer that incrementally gets longer with each jump.

http://bit.ly/1rOpzTs

It’s a logarithmic scale.

So when you jump you get two timers.

First timer is the jump drive timer; the second timer is jump drive activation delay.

The jump drive timer is a base 30 minutes and every time you make a jump it will record the amount and add +1 to the "Jumps Made Since Timer Began" value. The jump drive timer will reset back to 30 min every time you make a new jump.
The jump drive activation delay is the timer you get once you have jumped. It’s the time you have to wait till the next jump can be made.

The equation for this is below.

http://i.imgur.com/EQpv4Cv.png

The principal of what happens here is that your delay timer gets bigger with each jump. The increment between each subsequent timer gets smaller, causing the graph to plateau out into a logarithmic curve. Eventually after so many jumps the delay timer will reach the same value as the jump drive timer, at which point it’s better with it out entirely and then start the process over.

Initially we found a problem with the function where doing three really short distance jumps would make the times later overall shorter but that has been fixed with the “Jump Amount Modifier.”

So e.g.
Jump 1 > 4.19 LY > delay timer of 6.42min > cumulative time 6.42min
Jump 2 > 4.7 LY > delay timer of 9.72 min > cumulative time 16.14min
Jump 3 > 4.206 LY > delay timer of 11.73 min > cumulative time 27.86min
Jump 5 > 4.564 LY > delay timer of 13.28 min > cumulative time 41.14min
Jump 6 > 1.855 LY > delay timer of 14.15 min > cumulative time 55.29min

Notice the increase in time getting smaller but the time overall still get longer. Bit like the diminishing returns of stacking nerf.

This Post and Equation was worked on by Sieonigh and myself.

Edit: We made this formula under the assumption that Jump Freighters and Rorquals do NOT have the 90% reduction, rather we think Black Ops should have this reduction (which we're implementing).



Are you waiting until fatigue hits zero between each jump?


No. This proposal takes away fatigue and inserts a 30 Minutes Jump Drive timer (ie: 1 Minute Aggression Timer) that is reset everytime you make a jump within the 30 Minute timer which gives you the next Jump Activation Delay you see on the spreadsheet.


yes this is a far better idea


I see...

I don't think this is a better solution. Putting a hard limit takes away a players choice and risk/reward.

CCP's solution makes you weigh your decision and wonder if jumping quickly is worth it. Now you can jump in, kill target, jump out. You gain a penalty but its doable. A hard timer takes away that choice.

Never mind. I'm tired and misreading. IGNORE ME!
Polo Marco
Four Winds
#4382 - 2014-10-02 22:20:27 UTC
misquote... deleted

Eve teaches hard lessons. Don't blame the game for your own failures.

Ackbarre
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#4383 - 2014-10-02 22:21:09 UTC
I predict that after all the capital pilots unsub. That CCP finishes WiS and allow players to strip and have sex to generate revenue.
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4384 - 2014-10-02 22:22:46 UTC
Ackbarre wrote:
I predict that after all the capital pilots unsub. That CCP finishes WiS and allow players to strip and have sex to generate revenue.

Jade Constantwhine will finally have his empire back.
Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
#4385 - 2014-10-02 22:23:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Rommiee
Taziar wrote:
Erufen Rito wrote:
BuddyKnife wrote:
All problems in the game can be traced to players moving to where other players are so gates and capitals should be removed from the game.

Actually, it can be traced to players undocking. Remove the players ability to undock, and bring back WiS. Change the name of the game to Sim City: Party on top of the World.

Obviously the real problem here is people being able to login. This needs to be stopped.


Lawl..... it works with the Devs, they haven't logged in for ages
Polo Marco
Four Winds
#4386 - 2014-10-02 22:23:11 UTC

Summer Isle wrote:
Polo Marco wrote:

a system with less than 5 active players (docked or in space..avg for 24hrs) and no industry/military/strategic index of at least one should cost ONE THOUSAND TIMES the base for every CONCORD sov bill to be paid.

ACTIVE systems, on the other hand...... with lets say.. over 30 pilots and with ANY index at 4 or higher, would pay the base costs for all facilities.

On something like this (not that I'm agreeing or disagreeing), instead of using arbitrary numbers, you could simply use a sort of inverted form of the industry index: As activity occurs that would generate fees, bounties, or anything else paid out either to or from NPC activity, the cost of a system is decreased (lore-based reason: CONCORD takes its cut to pay for communications systems, etc, so with lower activity, CONCORD needs more ISK from the alliances to cover everything).




Actually CCP has never let 'realism' divert the logic of a game mechanic. Note the ridiculous concept here of squeezing Titans through a gate so much smaller than they are :D

The CONCORD mechanic I proposed in my original post :


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5078735#post5078735

seems a far more elegant solution to this problem than cluttering up the game with a new egg timer and rendering so much of the training time those of us who fly jump capable ships invested as basically wasted.

Eve teaches hard lessons. Don't blame the game for your own failures.

Mc Cormeg
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4387 - 2014-10-02 22:24:09 UTC
Iam Widdershins wrote:

What about: if you've been stuck in a station (i.e. haven't docked anywhere else or left the system) for some number of days, perhaps 5 or 7, you have the option to move your medical clone to your highsec NPC station of origin from whence you first entered the game.


Guess there is a ticket /gm solution for this problem. They move you to the next Lowsec/Highsec system as i know.
TimeDrawsNigh
Consensual Entry
#4388 - 2014-10-02 22:24:36 UTC
Jessica Duranin wrote:
TimeDrawsNigh wrote:

....
So e.g.
Jump 1 > 4.19 LY > delay timer of 6.42min > cumulative time 6.42min
Jump 2 > 4.7 LY > delay timer of 9.72 min > cumulative time 16.14min
Jump 3 > 4.206 LY > delay timer of 11.73 min > cumulative time 27.86min
Jump 5 > 4.564 LY > delay timer of 13.28 min > cumulative time 41.14min
Jump 6 > 1.855 LY > delay timer of 14.15 min > cumulative time 55.29min

Notice the increase in time getting smaller but the time overall still get longer. Bit like the diminishing returns of stacking nerf.

This is waaaay too soft. It wouldn't impact the current meta at all.


Which is why the Jump Modifiers and Coefficient can easily be changed to markup the delay between jumps - as can the 30 Minute Timer so the maximum delay between jumps can become higher. As after the 'Jump Drive Timer' expires the Jump Delay Timer is also reset as that number is based off the Jump Drive Timer.

This removes the ability to move large capital fleets across the universe at current but would still take roughly half a day compared to the 3 Day limit CCP has stated. Which also allows, with this equation, for smaller entities to get from Point A to Point B.

"Darkness thrives in the void, but always yields to purifying light."

Iski Zuki DaSen
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4389 - 2014-10-02 22:24:36 UTC
G8 changes

i am sure the game will be easier and more fun to all the people that use those ships or jump bridges

its alote of fun to travel 40 gates with your capital

please implement them from tomorrow

4000+ posts agree with them
Valan Kenobi
Ghost Space Corp.
#4390 - 2014-10-02 22:24:43 UTC
This is an amazing fix to the current problem that is happening in Null. So you have huge alliances, coalitions, and allies that control huge parts of Null right now. They have had it pretty easy and they make huge amounts of ISK. Enough ISK that they have 30+ Titans, just waiting, 50+ other cap ships and a mess of others. They are spread to the far reaches of the current galaxy. With this change that will no longer be the case. If they do not want to deal with the Logistics problem they will have to move inward, where there are fewer systems. They will have to break alliances, break allies and be forced to fight for territory and all those pretty capital ships will have to be used. This one change will give the desired effect that CCP wants.

Now as for those that is saying that you will not be able to deliver to the systems that need supplies. That is not there problem or yours. What that means is that all the people in those systems will have to leave and go to the system that does have the supplies. More risk, more combat, more explosions. Null was seen to be a place of fear. Now it’s a place of who you know.

Also what this is going to do is cause all the systems in the outer ring to empty out. Where all the nice Ore, Ice , and combat sites are. This will allow for people that are High sec or Low sec to be able to cyno out there, stay a few days. Since the timer will require that they stay there for a few days, Make ISK and then Jump back. Making it more of a Industrial place, hence making the Roqual more of a valuable option of use.

This is a great upset to all you big alliances and I do not feel for you. The ability to jump into fights from such great distances has been a broken part of this game for a while now. And I am glad to see that it is coming to a glorious end. I am looking forward to watching all the great Titans blow up, and I am more excited to use capital ships for what they were meant to be used for. Not just as transportation insane travel against the stars. Let’s watch as the Coalitions fall apart, and grand alliances break from the stress.

Now if only they will remove mobile warp bubbles, and make Interdictor class ships used for what they were designed to do. Instead of glorified Heavy assault ships.
TimeDrawsNigh
Consensual Entry
#4391 - 2014-10-02 22:27:23 UTC
Endo Saissore wrote:
P4nty w44d wrote:
TimeDrawsNigh wrote:
Endo Saissore wrote:
TimeDrawsNigh wrote:
Counter proposal for the jump delay timer.

Link below is a google excel doc. of cumulative delay timer that incrementally gets longer with each jump.

http://bit.ly/1rOpzTs

It’s a logarithmic scale.

So when you jump you get two timers.

First timer is the jump drive timer; the second timer is jump drive activation delay.

The jump drive timer is a base 30 minutes and every time you make a jump it will record the amount and add +1 to the "Jumps Made Since Timer Began" value. The jump drive timer will reset back to 30 min every time you make a new jump.
The jump drive activation delay is the timer you get once you have jumped. It’s the time you have to wait till the next jump can be made.

The equation for this is below.

http://i.imgur.com/EQpv4Cv.png

The principal of what happens here is that your delay timer gets bigger with each jump. The increment between each subsequent timer gets smaller, causing the graph to plateau out into a logarithmic curve. Eventually after so many jumps the delay timer will reach the same value as the jump drive timer, at which point it’s better with it out entirely and then start the process over.

Initially we found a problem with the function where doing three really short distance jumps would make the times later overall shorter but that has been fixed with the “Jump Amount Modifier.”

So e.g.
Jump 1 > 4.19 LY > delay timer of 6.42min > cumulative time 6.42min
Jump 2 > 4.7 LY > delay timer of 9.72 min > cumulative time 16.14min
Jump 3 > 4.206 LY > delay timer of 11.73 min > cumulative time 27.86min
Jump 5 > 4.564 LY > delay timer of 13.28 min > cumulative time 41.14min
Jump 6 > 1.855 LY > delay timer of 14.15 min > cumulative time 55.29min

Notice the increase in time getting smaller but the time overall still get longer. Bit like the diminishing returns of stacking nerf.

This Post and Equation was worked on by Sieonigh and myself.

Edit: We made this formula under the assumption that Jump Freighters and Rorquals do NOT have the 90% reduction, rather we think Black Ops should have this reduction (which we're implementing).



Are you waiting until fatigue hits zero between each jump?


No. This proposal takes away fatigue and inserts a 30 Minutes Jump Drive timer (ie: 1 Minute Aggression Timer) that is reset everytime you make a jump within the 30 Minute timer which gives you the next Jump Activation Delay you see on the spreadsheet.


yes this is a far better idea


I see...

I don't think this is a better solution. Putting a hard limit takes away a players choice and risk/reward.

CCP's solution makes you weigh your decision and wonder if jumping quickly is worth it. Now you can jump in, kill target, jump out. You gain a penalty but its doable. A hard timer takes away that choice.


I'm not seeing what you mean by: "I don't think this is a better solution. Putting a hard limit takes away a players choice and risk/reward."

If you're referring to the 30 minute Jump Drive Timer. This timer simply counts how many jumps you've made within 30 minutes which restarts each time you make a jump. The number of jumps made within that time is what's calculated to give you the Jump Delay Timer I've proposed above.

"Darkness thrives in the void, but always yields to purifying light."

Ravcharas
Infinite Point
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#4392 - 2014-10-02 22:27:29 UTC
Taziar wrote:
Obviously the real problem here is people being able to login. This needs to be stopped.

Give the launcher another couple of iterations, we'll get there
Megarom
Shiva
Northern Coalition.
#4393 - 2014-10-02 22:27:34 UTC
TDLR; I think there is a better model for that mathemathics involved.

Because the mathemathics is the only part I have any competence to comment on I'd like to propose an alternate model that has it's own pros and conns, but I'll get to those after I've introduced it.

As I understand the goal of the mathemathics at play here are as follows.

Enforce a cap for sustained travel speed.
Allow bursts of couple of jumps to break that cap.
Be simple.

In the system proposed the highest possible sustained travel speed is archived by waiting the fatigue to decay under 1 which takes LY traveled times 10 minutes unless you are about to reach destination or log off anyway. This leads to top sustained speed being roughly equal to the fatigue decay rate.

If you jump before fatigue has decayed you get the burst of speed but you pay a huge price in the loss of sustained speed.

My proposal is this:

1. On jump the lightyears travelled are added to the fatique value which decays at the famaliar rate.
2. Jump cooldown is 6^(fatigue/5) minutes

(Yes there is an exponential function there don't be scared, the numbers are selected to provide roughly similar results on the first 2 jumps)

Let's look at some examples. Each jump is 5 LY. The time it takes to jump is assumed to be zero.

Both my model and what I call Grayscale model work the same way when you wait for the fatigue to decay meanng you can jump 5 lightyears every 50 minutes.

If we instead jump whenever the cooldown has passed we get very different results.

Grayscale model

After first jump you wait 6 minutes.
after second about 32 minutes
after third about 3 hours 10 minutes
after fourth about 19 hours.

Total: alot

If you are smart you would in destination in 2 hours 18 minutes. Which accounts for 2 50 minute waits and one 6, and one 32 minute wait because if you are reaching your target you can take the fatigue hit. Or if you need to keep jumping after that at full speed 3 hours 20 minutes.

Megarom model
after first 6 minutes
after second 29 minutes
after third about 62
after forth 40

Total: 2 hour 17 minutes, which is about the same as by waiting the decay 2 times and then making last 2 jumps as fast as possible. If you want to leave the burst speed open when you arrive it will take the 3 hours 20 minutes mentioned earlier

With more jumps the difference between the strategies oscillates between +-10 minutes converging on about -5 while the cooldown converges on 50 minutes, which means that sustained travel speed is limited to the same value in both travel strategies. IE. you can't break the travel speed set by the decay rate. On the other hand fatigue never gets out of hand, because it will decay enough while the cooldown is running.

Let's concider 2 different jump plans with 3 jumps 5 LY each.
1. jump 2. wait 6 minutes 3. jump 4. wait 50 minutes 5. jump
vs
1. jump 2. wait 50 minutes 3. jump 4. wait 6 minutes 5. jump

Both are possible in both models and take equal amount of time.
In the Grayscale model the first leaves you with a cooldown of 137 minutes and the second with 32 minutes. In Megarom model your total travel distance is 15 LY in both cases which causes 15 fatigue and you have waited in total 56 minutes so fatigue after 3 jumps is 9.4 and cooldown 29 minutes.

Let's concider 2 different jump plans with more variation
1. jump 4 LY 2. wait 20 minutes 3. jump 5 LY
vs
1. jump 2 LY 2. wait 3 minutes 3. jump 2 LY 4. wait 17 minutes 5. jump 5 LY


Both are again possible and take equal amount of time.
In Grayscale model the first leaves you with 7 minute cooldown and fatigue and the second with 38 minute cooldown.
In Megarom model in both cases your total travel distance is 9 LY which causes 9 fatigue and you have waited 20 minutes
which drops it to 7 giving you cooldown of 12 minutes.

Megarom model Pros
Enforces sustained travel speed, without punishing player with hours of cooldown
Allows burst of couple of jumps
Doesn't require arbitary fatigue limit, because fatigue is naturally capped.
The fatigue is a clear concept related to the distance the pilot has jumped.
Planning the jump schedules is way easier, just don't try to go faster than the decay rate and the schedule is doable.
It doesn't care about number of jumps or pacing only distance traveled in total and the decay time.

Cons
The math for the cooldown is trickier
Doesn't allow shooting yourself in the foot with crazy fatigue amounts


All in all I think the way Grayscale model allows shooting yourself in the foot in such a severe way that it's not too far fetched to call it user unfriendly. On the other hand many people like the game when it punishes hard for your mistakes.

Math being technically trickier is balanced system being easier to understand in practice.

PS. I just paid you 15€ to post this. Seriously Roll me.
Karash Amerius
The Seven Shadows
#4394 - 2014-10-02 22:27:58 UTC
HTFU

Nothing is "necessary" within Eve. Stop using the crutch to walk the lay of the land...things are going to change dramatically, that is for sure, but remember this is just 1s and 0s. Adapt, have fun...or quit if you cannot HTFU.

Karash Amerius Operative, Sutoka

Gus Machado
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#4395 - 2014-10-02 22:27:59 UTC
Bacchanalian wrote:
Tell me whose babies I need to have. This is amazing. Finally a chance to shake up nullsec for the smaller fish in the pond using proper guerrilla tactics.


yup 150 man gate camps with sensor boosted ships using 60,000,000 scan res here we come.
its seems like its 2009 again.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#4396 - 2014-10-02 22:28:34 UTC
Kismeteer wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
Kismeteer wrote:
Another 40 posts, and this will be the highest replied to topic in this entire set of forums. The only other one was the Reasonable Things megathread awhile back with 4,282 replies.


I still think the biggest ever was the T20 thread... back in the old forums... can anyone find out?


You are correct, there were actually two threads. I only went through the current forums, not the old ones,:
5096 - T20 - http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=526462&page=170
3156 - T20 response - http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=473335&page=106

Some other important ones.
4304 - speed nerf - http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=831524&page=144
3552 - dominion sov - http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=1210267&page=119
3276 - fighter bombers - http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=618279&page=110

e: So we are now past the last major implementation threadnaught, the speed nerf, which was huge. Congrats. We'll see if CCP considers anything, or just blindly implements stuff as they usually do, promising to 'fix it' later. Like the Dominion Sov system.


with the level of coverage this thread has received i feel pretty stongly that there will be several interations... even if the op makes it in the patch unchaged...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#4397 - 2014-10-02 22:28:44 UTC
Tempest Borne wrote:
Is this a troll?

There is some convoluted sense to cooldown. 5 ly nerf on jumps? Talk about making sure people congregate on the edges of high sec....


That's fine, you go congregate on the edges of hi sec. That means there is so much null sec to be exploited with no competition!
Isengrimus
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#4398 - 2014-10-02 22:29:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Isengrimus
Tempest Borne wrote:
Is this a troll?

There is some convoluted sense to cooldown. 5 ly nerf on jumps? Talk about making sure people congregate on the edges of high sec....


A valid point. Without the ability to bypass the "borderlands", the remote areas of nullsec will become even more stagnat - as even if a small group conquers them thanks to the proposed changes to the capital blob, they won't be able to live there due to lack of supplies and non-existing trade routes. (Yes, I am repeating myself).

Dear Greyscale, what's your flexibility when it comes to extending JF and Rorqual (and possibly another non-combat ship that could carry fitted subcaps) jump range?
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#4399 - 2014-10-02 22:30:23 UTC
Gus Machado wrote:
Bacchanalian wrote:
Tell me whose babies I need to have. This is amazing. Finally a chance to shake up nullsec for the smaller fish in the pond using proper guerrilla tactics.


yup 150 man gate camps with sensor boosted ships using 60,000,000 scan res here we come.
its seems like its 2009 again.


Step 1: Use a scout

Step 2: as soon as you find a gate camp use a cyno alt to jump several system past the "Choke"

Step 3: ????

Step 4: Profit

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Erufen Rito
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4400 - 2014-10-02 22:30:31 UTC
Rommiee wrote:
Taziar wrote:
Erufen Rito wrote:
BuddyKnife wrote:
All problems in the game can be traced to players moving to where other players are so gates and capitals should be removed from the game.

Actually, it can be traced to players undocking. Remove the players ability to undock, and bring back WiS. Change the name of the game to Sim City: Party on top of the World.

Obviously the real problem here is people being able to login. This needs to be stopped.


Lawl..... it works with the Devs, they haven't logged in for ages

****, wait. I just had to sit up for this realization.

Devs don't log in, and get to enjoy Eve.

If...and just stay with me here.

If, us players, don't log in, do we get to...enjoy Eve?

Is this a new way of winning Eve?

Guys, hold me. Fun in MY EVE!?

This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165