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Prototype: Dojos

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Sierra Payne
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#81 - 2014-09-25 12:16:10 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Sierra Payne wrote:
....


but this is something they could do even if the dojos are kept off TQ


True, you could keep it off TQ but only if CCP allows for direct character copying through an interface. I've bought a toon weeks ago and it still hasn't shown up on SiSi for me. This is an issue that needs resolving. Aside of that I think SiSi or Duality wouldn't be the best choices for this functionality purely due to the nature of these servers as being "test" servers.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#82 - 2014-09-25 12:16:23 UTC
Sierra Payne wrote:
Randolph Sykes wrote:
You're messing with the entire ~sandbox~ thing. Don't implement this on TQ, please. This is beyond dangerous for the game.


Please elaborate.

As far as I can see it, provided it's done correctly, this will help the sandbox a lot more in the long run. It will allow you to run your own tournaments, your own competitions and that adds a layer of depth to the game.


but you can already do those things so they aren't added with this as for being detrimental to the sandbox it is the fact that it is creating a little room in the box that no one can touch

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Lugh Crow-Slave
#83 - 2014-09-25 12:17:35 UTC
Sierra Payne wrote:


True, you could keep it off TQ but only if CCP allows for direct character copying through an interface. I've bought a toon weeks ago and it still hasn't shown up on SiSi for me. This is an issue that needs resolving. Aside of that I think SiSi or Duality wouldn't be the best choices for this functionality purely due to the nature of these servers as being "test" servers.



the fact that they are test servers is exactly why this is a place for them. test your fits and your skills

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Sierra Payne
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2014-09-25 12:18:26 UTC
Aiyshimin wrote:
Sierra Payne wrote:

You seem to miss the point.
Sure, you are totally right if you are judging it on major fleets, but that's NOT what the dojo has been made for. Myself I honestly have no problems with fleet fights, but I struggle in solo-battles because there's a whole different skillset that's relevant to your battle.

Sure, there always will be external factors that influence the outcome. But the idea of a dojo, if properly implemented, would help newer pilots to learn how their ship flies in terms of speed, agility, match ups, transversal/angular/radial velocity etc.

Not only that, but having a system such as this in place, again if done right, could spark a lot more PVP content through player-made tournaments.


No you're the one missing the point- tournaments are not "PVP content", they are bullshit. Development of this prototype should have never gotten the slightest flicker of green light in the first place.



You claim PVP Tournaments are bullshit, yet we have thousands of people tuning into the Alliance Tournament. Just because you do not like the tournaments does not instantly warrant them as bullshit, and with the huge amount of numbers watching the AT-XII etc, you can pretty safely deduct that the tournament aspect is something people are interested in.

EVE is all about creating your own content, yet when people get the option to create their own competitions because they can, you shoot the idea down without giving it any constructive feedback. I'd like to ask you to do it the opposite way
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#85 - 2014-09-25 12:19:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Sierra Payne wrote:
Honestly I see it like the following,

What happens when you're a new player with no experience in PVP yet you want to learn how to be more effective at flying your ships. Your friend invites you to the dojo so that you can practice a bit more before heading out into the wild and PVP properly against all kind of matchups. Suddenly the quality of pilots rises because they learned better how to fly, making your PVP life more challenging and exciting.

Win/Win across the board, provided it's implemented with no rewards or benefits to other people.


The dojos already exist in form of safe spots in space, where no one can warp to you except when they probe your spot - where you also learn to keep an eye on dscan during your PVP and to be careful.

When you are new, you ask experienced players to teach you. Or you teach yourself in the harsh universe EVE is supposed to be. We don't need Angry Bird players.

We don't need these arenas.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#86 - 2014-09-25 12:19:53 UTC
I think this is great, as long as actual ships are lost when things blow up, I am totally fine with it. All the whining about not being able to interfere with the fights is just nonsense. There are plenty of things in EVE that you cannot interfere with right now, like industry, trading and PI. Where is this magic new requirement that you must be able to screw up what people want to do on their own time coming from?

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
Lugh Crow-Slave
#87 - 2014-09-25 12:23:27 UTC
Two step wrote:
I think this is great, as long as actual ships are lost when things blow up, I am totally fine with it. All the whining about not being able to interfere with the fights is just nonsense. There are plenty of things in EVE that you cannot interfere with right now, like industry, trading and PI. Where is this magic new requirement that you must be able to screw up what people want to do on their own time coming from?



I can mess with your industry by popping your ships or messing with the mineral market i can screw with your PI by blasting your POCO. i can alter your trading by undercutting you

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Chirality Tisteloin
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#88 - 2014-09-25 12:23:52 UTC
Awesome stuff! Hope this will be followed up!
Also love the name.

CCP Veritas wrote:
Greetings Spaceship Fighting Enthusiasts,

There are four strong guiding principles that I applied while doing this:

  1. Fights need to be un-screw-with-able. We strongly feel that if what’s supposed to be a “fair” match given a set of predetermined rules is thrown off course by outside influence, it invalidates the whole premise.
  2. Outside of the actual matches, there should be ways to screw with the dojo itself
  3. We should cater as much as possible to the participant that wants a quick, easy PvP fix.
  4. Players should run the whole thing, with the game providing no economic value to participants nor organizers



Sounds good. How do you imagine number (2) to be implemented? Can the deployable be attacked when no-one is inside? How do you prevent people from just defensive-camping their own dojo?

What about spectators? (I always have that vision that the "spectators" enact the boundary violation Twisted)

Regards, Chira.

PS: Love the idea of using deadspace. Make player-buildable acceleration gates, maybe? With keys? Hackable?

See you at my blog: http://spindensity.wordpress.com/
Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
#89 - 2014-09-25 12:24:37 UTC
By bullshit I mean it's not open-world, uncontrolled PVP which is the core of EVE Online. The whole idea of concensual, arranged fights is a cancer and it needs to be cured by fire before it spreads.

PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#90 - 2014-09-25 12:25:05 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Two step wrote:
I think this is great, as long as actual ships are lost when things blow up, I am totally fine with it. All the whining about not being able to interfere with the fights is just nonsense. There are plenty of things in EVE that you cannot interfere with right now, like industry, trading and PI. Where is this magic new requirement that you must be able to screw up what people want to do on their own time coming from?



I can mess with your industry by popping your ships or messing with the mineral market i can screw with your PI by blasting your POCO. i can alter your trading by undercutting you

You can mess with the ships in the dojo by fighting in the dojo. Cool

Undercutting someone on the market is playing within the arena of the market. You don't get the opportunity to blowup the entire market now do you?
Varesk
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#91 - 2014-09-25 12:25:31 UTC
CCP Veritas wrote:


In the meantime I would very much like to invite people to give it a spin before they judge too deeply. There's a lot of jumping to conclusions going on in here.


You are making an instance. This inst jumping to conclusions. If you put two players in a system where no one can warp to them, that is an Instance, which you are making.


Bytestorm
Liga der hessischen Gentlemen
#92 - 2014-09-25 12:25:50 UTC
1.) How do you prevent Mindlinks to work in that deadspaces? It won't be fair if one side uses them.
4.) Why? This has a lot of potential to build an economy around it.
Sierra Payne
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2014-09-25 12:25:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Sierra Payne
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Sierra Payne wrote:
Randolph Sykes wrote:
You're messing with the entire ~sandbox~ thing. Don't implement this on TQ, please. This is beyond dangerous for the game.


Please elaborate.

As far as I can see it, provided it's done correctly, this will help the sandbox a lot more in the long run. It will allow you to run your own tournaments, your own competitions and that adds a layer of depth to the game.


but you can already do those things so they aren't added with this as for being detrimental to the sandbox it is the fact that it is creating a little room in the box that no one can touch


I can see the perspective, it definitely takes the risk away for some people.
However, I do wonder how much more content it can bring. It could give us a lot more benefits in the long run in both our own content as well as CCP-made tournaments. Why is that relevant? We can deny it as much as we want, and pretend to be an ostrich when it comes to money, but CCP in the end wants to earn money. When a relatively simple idea could potentially rake in a lot more interested players in the long run, that is something I do support.

So what would I do?

  1. Allow these systems only to be anchored outside of highsec, to prevent people from safely huddling up in Amarr.
  2. Limit the amount of systems in which you can anchor such modules for battles to deep low security. Force the players that use it to be at risk in a bunch of systems where both sides of the coin can converge?
  3. Do we want an E.S.S-like bubble for people exiting their Dojo? The bubble does not affect people warping through, only those exiting the dojo?
l0rd carlos
the king asked me to guard the mountain
#94 - 2014-09-25 12:26:04 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Sierra Payne wrote:
Randolph Sykes wrote:
You're messing with the entire ~sandbox~ thing. Don't implement this on TQ, please. This is beyond dangerous for the game.


Please elaborate.

As far as I can see it, provided it's done correctly, this will help the sandbox a lot more in the long run. It will allow you to run your own tournaments, your own competitions and that adds a layer of depth to the game.


but you can already do those things so they aren't added with this as for being detrimental to the sandbox it is the fact that it is creating a little room in the box that no one can touch


Even though you theoretical can organize a tournament right now on TQ, I can't remember seeing it work successfully outside of a small closed environment (like corp internal event etc) over a longer period of time.

I would like to see something on TQ that promotes and motivates players for the AT and NEO.

Youtube Channel about Micro and Small scale PvP with commentary: Fleet Commentary by l0rd carlos
Lugh Crow-Slave
#95 - 2014-09-25 12:27:39 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Two step wrote:
I think this is great, as long as actual ships are lost when things blow up, I am totally fine with it. All the whining about not being able to interfere with the fights is just nonsense. There are plenty of things in EVE that you cannot interfere with right now, like industry, trading and PI. Where is this magic new requirement that you must be able to screw up what people want to do on their own time coming from?



I can mess with your industry by popping your ships or messing with the mineral market i can screw with your PI by blasting your POCO. i can alter your trading by undercutting you

You can mess with the ships in the dojo by fighting in the dojo. Cool

Undercutting someone on the market is playing within the arena of the market. You don't get the opportunity to blowup the entire market now do you?


I have the opportunity to crash it yes and i affect the market every time i blow something up w/o ever needing to dock.

and i can't mess with ships in someones dojo that isn't mine and that is the problem most are finding with this

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#96 - 2014-09-25 12:27:45 UTC
Two step wrote:
Where is this magic new requirement that you must be able to screw up what people want to do on their own time coming from?


Do you also think ccp would add instanced pve missions and mining belts where people could be left alone, or should this new trend remain a dojo exclusive?

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
Randolph Sykes
Boars on Parade
The Tuskers Co.
#97 - 2014-09-25 12:27:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Randolph Sykes
Sierra Payne wrote:
Please elaborate.

What do you need to be elaborated? The lack of artificial boundaries is what makes EVE a sandbox game, its USP. And this is a clearest example of such artificial boundaries. Deployment of such a feature on TQ is going to kill a lot of pvp-related things. You are going to struggle finding a fight anywhere other than these dojos. Why? If I want to find a fight now - I need to roam around. I need to know where to find targets. I need to know how to get a fight - to catch a prey or to make myself look like a prey. There is a risk to end up in a camp, to be overwhelmed, to be jammed by a sudden Falcon - and this is what makes EVE pvp awesome. But a lot of people would prefer dojos to the sandbox pvp, because it's much easier.
Eshnala
TURN LEFT
#98 - 2014-09-25 12:28:02 UTC
l0rd carlos wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Sierra Payne wrote:
Randolph Sykes wrote:
You're messing with the entire ~sandbox~ thing. Don't implement this on TQ, please. This is beyond dangerous for the game.


Please elaborate.

As far as I can see it, provided it's done correctly, this will help the sandbox a lot more in the long run. It will allow you to run your own tournaments, your own competitions and that adds a layer of depth to the game.


but you can already do those things so they aren't added with this as for being detrimental to the sandbox it is the fact that it is creating a little room in the box that no one can touch


Even though you theoretical can organize a tournament right now on TQ, I can't remember seeing it work successfully outside of a small closed environment (like corp internal event etc) over a longer period of time.

I would like to see something on TQ that promotes and motivates players for the AT and NEO.


^ pretty much this.
Dave Stark
#99 - 2014-09-25 12:34:29 UTC
dexington wrote:
Two step wrote:
Where is this magic new requirement that you must be able to screw up what people want to do on their own time coming from?


Do you also think ccp would add instanced pve missions and mining belts where people could be left alone, or should this new trend remain a dojo exclusive?


instanced mining would be fantastic, and not require me to find a mining agent.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#100 - 2014-09-25 12:36:51 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Two step wrote:
I think this is great, as long as actual ships are lost when things blow up, I am totally fine with it. All the whining about not being able to interfere with the fights is just nonsense. There are plenty of things in EVE that you cannot interfere with right now, like industry, trading and PI. Where is this magic new requirement that you must be able to screw up what people want to do on their own time coming from?



I can mess with your industry by popping your ships or messing with the mineral market i can screw with your PI by blasting your POCO. i can alter your trading by undercutting you

You can mess with the ships in the dojo by fighting in the dojo. Cool

Undercutting someone on the market is playing within the arena of the market. You don't get the opportunity to blowup the entire market now do you?


I have the opportunity to crash it yes and i affect the market every time i blow something up w/o ever needing to dock.

and i can't mess with ships in someones dojo that isn't mine and that is the problem most are finding with this

And you have the opportunity to blow up dojo ships every time you fight in the dojo. Big smile

When you crash a market, you use the tools within that market to crash it. And even then it still exists, you don't get to blow up the station, after all. When you fight in the dojo, you use the tools of the dojo to destroy ships within said dojo. Simple.

I can't drop bubble or bombs in hisec, does that mean the sandbox is dead? No, for each and every type of space and environment that exists, there are rules. No environment in eve is 100% freeform.