Wormholes

I have seen multiple people make this change about increased risk, however I'd like to break it down further and say that this change has brought about increased "effort". Rolling holes to find pew or a new chain now takes much longer. With small corps seeing that now things have gotten harder in terms of "effort" to simply make it worth their while in the great equation of (time investment vs reward), it is harder to find prey because almost all of them are leaving or unsubbing.

And CCP, that's really what people are complaining about. The game already has a high base time investment vs reward ratio, and you just went and quadrupled it for one entire chunk of space.

One of the main issues is content and security. Shoot everything has always been the way in wormhole space, but I would love it if it got to the point where wormholes were so desirable that you would have multiple groups living in every wormhole. We had a co-hab wormhole before Hyperion in a C4/C3, with two other corps. Sure it was a pain to share bookmarks, but it was nice to know that people in different timezones had a presence in the wormhole, and the added numbers for defense and offense always helped.

I wish that wormholes were actually as profitable as the risk would warrant. I have plenty of high SP members in my corp that could all be guaranteed anywhere from 100-200million isk an hour in high sec, and with significantly less effort and risk. I wish I could guarantee the same consistency of income, and it is even easy to tax!

I think one of the main issues is that it is basically impossible to fully scout your chain after the changes, something that was at least possible pre-Hyperion. We used to live in a C4/C4, and we knew what chains looked like xD. Last night we spent 4 hours with 3 scouts to scan as many wormholes as we could fit on our Siggy, didn't find anything besides some MTUs and an abandoned venture. We then decided to roll the hole and spend the night inside.

Large empty chains is the worst nightmare for groups looking for some pvp. You can't even be a hunter in low class wormholes unless you are doing something on another monitor. Unless you like staring at the one active in your chain POS spinning, just praying to BOB that he flys out to do something.

I wish that CCP would add more reasons to be outside of POS shields in wormholes. Just one piece of added content would have gone a LONG way.

We moved out of our C4 because of the changes, and we are a fairly active group of guys. I can only imagine how smaller corps are surviving....

Since Hyperion has been out for a couple weeks now and this change in particular has had enough time to sink in I've finally decided on whether I like this change or not. My corp lives in a c5/c5. I have 3 pilots that I'd use to solo roll holes before Hyperion. A Moros, Orca and Helios. With Hyperion came the mass based spawn which frankly really fucks lower class whs. What I need to roll with Hyperion: Moros, Orca, Daredevil/Helios. CCP has made rolling holes slightly more time consuming then pre-Hyperion for High class wh's. I'm sure rolling holes in low class whs takes much much longer. It took us twice as long to roll a c4 even with the help of 3 orcas and multiple bs then it did for us to roll a c5 and nullsec connection tonight.

Now, I'm sure you're saying that, 'Yeah you could roll holes with just that but you're gonna get ganked!'. We roll holes for two reasons. First, the chain is dead and there's no pew. No pew means I can roll solo without a worry, no ones around. Second, were preparing to run escalations for isk. This generally means there a fair number of us on so if a cap does get tackled we can support it.

Verdict on mass based spawn: Meh. It has little to no effect for my corp to roll holes. It does give us the possibility of catching stuff trying to roll tho

After nearly three years living full-time in C4s, our main group is relocating back to empire. Not really because the changes affect us all that much (C4 static C5 group after all), but because honestly, day/week-tripping seems to be the way to go after these changes.

Nearly every chain we've been on, since the expansion, has had people moving stuff out. Take that as you will.

Hi CCP,

Here is my feed back for Mass-Based Spawn Distance.

I really do not like it. Do you know how impossible it is for small gangs to catch a covert ops T3 now? Gone are the days of T3's spawning too close to a WH to cloak. If you want to live forever and never die all you need to do is fly a covert ops ship. Go through a WH, cloak up because there is no risk in running away now.

Now, I know there are lots of ways of bringing someone out of cloak... But, I'm just talking about small gang. We usually run with like 3-4 ships.

While trying to fix "rage rolling" which I honestly feel like isn't even a big deal at all and probably a small minority of WH dwellers have an issue with. You've destroyed PvP for small corps in WH space AND PvE.

I know everyone throws around "omg only the bears will care". But honestly, even the non-bears love the bears. Why on earth would you want bears to move out of WH space?!! I vote bring ALL the bears in! EVERYONE loves killing bears, it's fun. Even a "bear" like me loves killing those who are slightly more a "bear" then me.

Most everyone always flies covert ops due to no local. How about giving us the ability to kill covert ops on wh's back.

Sincerely,

The biggest noob on earth - Scrub

Just to remind you ppl - after all our posts were deleted:

CCP newer wanted ppl to live in wh space - the pos code was simply a mistake.

CCP made escalations to prevent ppl from using caps in wh space - not to reward the wh bears.

CCP never thought of ppl rolling whs and making wh space a bears dream.

The frig whs are exactly tailored to allow null bomber fleets attack whs - even with increasing mass, so no one could roll them.

The mass spawn is tailored exactly to make rolling more difficult - not impossible, but more difficult.


So - CCP wants ppl to play in null sex. Null sex is deserted - so we wlll see more changes that will herd ppl towards null sex.

FW is now really null sex light - with the same stagnation.

Wh space in like null sex version 2.0 - getting the same stagnation.


So what we will see are interesting changes to null sex - I hope that these changes will break up the existing stagnation in EVE.

You realize that EVE was based on the equation risk vs. gain?

Whs as we had them before hyperion where bears den.

I know so many wh guys talk about pvp - but wh space is bear space first and only.

The patch changed that a bit - it is easy to understand.

Gameplay is not harmful - let us see how the t3 prices blow up soon.

It is actually not wrong by the definition we use of the word "farmer" that you pretty much gave yourself:
g) "Farmers" are just bears and never engage in PVP.
They only run their homesites and are there for no other purpose. So they make sure they aren´t too many for siterunning,so
c) falls flat too. Also they can b) farm them continuously in perspective of playtime and that is a major argument on where to farm. If you want to farm a few hours every week that is easily doable in a c4, if you want to farm a few hours monday to tuesday you can easily do that in a c5/6 since you do not despawn the sites. If you want to farm/bot 10+h every day you need to do lvl4s or sov 0.0
d) cost of living is only a factor if you are solo and very casual. Hell, we used to fuel corptowers just from pvploot
e) logistics are a nonpoint since they only need stront and fuel and you can do that every few months when you get the lucky k-space
And on f) loosing ships/caps in sites is already in the risk/reward equivalation and obviously was worth it. And all the farmer looses to evictions unless he fucks up is a few days of time and some scanships/haulers/gasminers because he will log in his expensive rattingships. Even if you move into his hole there are plenty of empty ones he can just move to within hours.

So overall you are correct for the people who actually live here and who we all want to live here, but not for farmers.


And I don´t know but having f.e. 20 lions in c6 space that are able to fight each other sounds so awesome noone would care about any antilopes. There probably wouldn´t be any since they would just be drive-by fastfood.




And now you are even wronger, they had good data and advise, they just made really bad decisions on how to tackle the problems following from that. And some bad decisions that led to that state in the first place.
By your logic the easing of c6 ratting and thus the rapid increase (almost doubled within 12 months) should have brought many new groups of "hunters" into c6 space. Yet we actually saw the numbes of notable corps and alliances in there go down from not too many to a handful.

To stick with your metapher: The lions didn´t get fresh antilopemeat but could only watch same rabbits that would be in their deep tunnels at the first sign of trouble where the lions would have to spent all weekend digging them out of. And not getting anything to eat in the meantime. Ofc sometimes a lion gets a fat, stupid or really unlucky rabbit.
But that happened just so often and doesn´t hurt the rabbitpopulation overall. It actually is more like the lion catching only the tip of one rabbitear, so the rabbit squeeks a bit, hides a few days and then continues as usual. While the starving lions move to that nice reservoir next door where they can just sit on a gate or bubble a station and buffelos will leap right into their open mouths all day long.

This ^

It would be nice if CCP could keep the discussion going, a little communication would go a long way. There is a C5 open to our hole with hostiles in it. We would very much love to come out and play, but let's be honest.... 3v23* (edit) isn't much of a fight. Would rather roll the hole, but I don't feel like losing a dread. So we're just afk cloaked in our hole hoping they'll log so we can roll it. And no, I don't trust them enough for a "fair fight". This is EvE where you screw people at any chance you get.

I'd just like to point out one more time. The mass thing didn't add risk to rolling wh. Once your rolling ships are in warp to the wh they are all in.

The mass thing REMOVED RISK from ganking rollers. Before hyperion, to ensure you got rollers you had to be willing ti exercise the 'all in' option. Post hyperion you have to master bumping and webbing, sit tight in your own wh and shoot pinatas.

When Fozzie stated that he was adding more risk to rolling... from a risk standpoint he was wrong. Rollers have always been all in. The 'safe' rolling was due to the general aversion of ganking fleets to go all in. The mass change just handed out loot to guys waiting in their home systems (picture a baby bird in a nest w/open mouth waiting for mamma to drop in some dinner).

No offense Fozzie, but your stated premise is just wrong on this one. If you ever need help understanding the risk involved with something... I get paid a lot of RL iskies to deal with various forms or risk every day. Who ever analyzed the whole wh rolling and ganking someone rolling a wh process missed by a mile... and we see the results.