These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Science & Industry

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Ore Compression and the State of Crius Industry

First post First post
Author
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2014-09-02 17:53:33 UTC
This is a slight cross post from my F&I Thread:

The issue isn't just compression. The issue is that there is a huge demand for minerals in nullsec, and we have no viable way of even getting close to supplying our minerals locally.

The suggestions above are basically spoon feeding more information to highsec trying to get them to look at the actual profitability of mining/compressing. Why would this "profitability" feature be implemented for compression and not expanded to production?

Compression is just in the cross hairs because that is the only way to source the minerals we need. Crius pushed production out of hub systems and is gradually forcing markets to form in nullsec, yet mineral supply is still centralized around major trade hubs (Jita). Even if we did strat op mining ops to clear Deklein of all it's ore, we'd still be short on key low end minerals and would absolutely crash what's left of the high end mineral market.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#22 - 2014-09-02 17:53:47 UTC
Grace Chang wrote:
Retar Aveymone wrote:
Price signals do not work when the producers are too dimwitted to respond to them.


So basically you are saying people are too dumb to make a profit in EvE and the market is broken when the market is ruthless for pretty much other item. I am pretty sure that is it and not you being a cheapskate.

Here is what i suspect: The market accurately reflects the effort and much volume is handled via private contracts.

You can currently buy plenty of compressed veldspar at a 19% markup in Jita. Seems fair to me considered the hauling around issue.

Here is a thought:

a.) pay the extra fee to the people who do the logistics of buying ore, hauling it, compressing it, and hauling it back
b.) befriend some highsec miner corporation to get a stable deal
c.) recruit miners for your 0.0 operation (because that is what this is about) and stop treating them like ****.

Either way the easy mode mineral logistics is gone for now. HTFU.

None of your thoughts actually help the problem. Let's break them down one by one.

A) We're already doing this. Trit is starting to even out, but mexallon and isogen do not have enough market volume to meet the demands of even a single nullsec producer.
B) The sheer number of minerals required to do any meaningful production make befriending a highsec mining corporation (or 100 of them) infeasible. The market typically deals with these inefficiencies by dint of pricing, but there just isn't enough supply to go around, on account of the vast majority of the supply being reprocessed in a terrible manner.
C) As stated earlier, the mineral composition of nullsec anomalies and belts is primarily highends. Mulching a Colossal hidden belt provides a mere pittance of lowends required, while generating yet more highends, which are completely useless.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Grace Chang
Tyrannis Enterprises
#23 - 2014-09-02 18:07:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Grace Chang
Querns wrote:


A) We're already doing this. Trit is starting to even out, but mexallon and isogen do not have enough market volume to meet the demands of even a single nullsec producer.
B) The sheer number of minerals required to do any meaningful production make befriending a highsec mining corporation (or 100 of them) infeasible. The market typically deals with these inefficiencies by dint of pricing, but there just isn't enough supply to go around, on account of the vast majority of the supply being reprocessed in a terrible manner.
C) As stated earlier, the mineral composition of nullsec anomalies and belts is primarily highends. Mulching a Colossal hidden belt provides a mere pittance of lowends required, while generating yet more highends, which are completely useless.


There is no problem. You lacking Ore is just fine.


to

A.) There is no shortage of supply in EvE for any item that is not hard capped. You can either pay more and provide an immediate incentive or you can wait if you think the inventive is high enough and people should come around. In any case the market is right and you are not.

B.) If that is a problem for you, you have the ingame tools to solve them.

C.) That is reinforcing my point. If you need Low-Ends in 0.0 you probably should pay a premium for it in 0.0 (or in highsec for the logistical effort). That way your miners might stop mining Arkonor and start mining Veldspar solving a few problems on the way.

You have viable industry now in 0.0, but that sword cuts both ways. By current design you can't have nullsec production costs and highsec supply costs. Personally i think that is a good thing. As i said, start recruiting miners.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#24 - 2014-09-02 18:19:43 UTC
Grace Chang wrote:
Querns wrote:


A) We're already doing this. Trit is starting to even out, but mexallon and isogen do not have enough market volume to meet the demands of even a single nullsec producer.
B) The sheer number of minerals required to do any meaningful production make befriending a highsec mining corporation (or 100 of them) infeasible. The market typically deals with these inefficiencies by dint of pricing, but there just isn't enough supply to go around, on account of the vast majority of the supply being reprocessed in a terrible manner.
C) As stated earlier, the mineral composition of nullsec anomalies and belts is primarily highends. Mulching a Colossal hidden belt provides a mere pittance of lowends required, while generating yet more highends, which are completely useless.


to

A.) There is no shortage of supply in EvE for any item that is not hard capped. You can either pay more and provide an immediate incentive or you can wait if you think the inventive is high enough and people should come around. In any case the market is right and you are not.

B.) If that is a problem for you, you have the ingame tools to solve them.

C.) That is reinforcing my point. If you need Low-Ends in 0.0 you probably should pay a premium for it in 0.0 (or in highsec for the logistical effort). That way your miners might stop mining Arkonor and start mining Veldspar solving a few problems on the way.

You have viable industry now in 0.0, but that sword cuts both ways. By current design you can't have nullsec production costs and highsec supply costs. Personally i think that is a good thing. As i said, start recruiting miners.


You're misinformed about the mechanics of nullsec mining.

Nullsec mining primarily occurs by way of gravimetric anomalies. These sites have a static ore composition of many types, and are generated by the Infrastructure hub. Once one of these sites is fully mined out, it respawns to be mined again.

The problem this produces is that in order to get more of the lowend minerals you need, you have to mine an absolute truckload of useless highends. Looking at the (slightly dated, but useful for this example) Bloodtear Industry Report, we can see that the composition of a Large gravimetric site (the most commonly mined site) contains the following composition:

http://i.imgur.com/24LTeL3.png (the forums don't really handle tabular data well so an image will have to suffice)

In order to get the 400k lowends you need, you have to mulch through 945k of other stuff. This limits the intake of useful minerals considerably by adding a massive speedbump in the form of forced acquisition of sub-par minerals. These roadblocks disincentivize mining in nullsec considerably by not only forcing additional sub-optimal labor, but also reduce the profit of the activity of mining overall, encouraging potential miners to do other things. (Unlike what you may have heard, we don't believe in enslaving our line members.)

This is discounting the danger contained by mining in nullsec, but I'm willing to disregard this, as it's a separate issue (and one much less defensible at any rate.) I don't need it to prove my point.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2014-09-02 18:20:23 UTC
Theory; Mex/Isogen shortage is partially due to the loot reprocessing nerf.

To verify, would need to figure out how large percentage of Mex/Isogen supply in Jita used to come from reprocessed loot rather than ore.
handige harrie
Vereenigde Handels Compagnie
#26 - 2014-09-02 18:54:12 UTC  |  Edited by: handige harrie
I think it's a better idea to solve this by education instead of changing stuff around. The need for a POS to compress Ore is a nice way to introduce players to use of posses for industrial needs instead using stations for everything. On the other hand it might be nice to use some underused PI products as ingredient or 'flux material' for station compression.

It appears this is not really a high sec miners not compressing problem though seeing your trit and pyerite numbers. It looks more like nobody mining Lowsec ores, which are the major supplier of Isogen/Nocx and in a lesser amount Mex.Which is weird, as they have been the best isk/hour ores in the game for a while and with the new compression ratios you get mad isk/m3 with compressed low sec ores.

As for the High End market collapse, I think CCP should've changed Ore anomalies the same way as they did Pirate anomalies. Remove most high end ores in -0.1 and -0.2 and have more, the lower the security rating gets.

Baddest poster ever

Grace Chang
Tyrannis Enterprises
#27 - 2014-09-02 19:00:17 UTC
handige harrie wrote:
I think it's a better idea to solve this by education instead of changing stuff around. The need for a POS to compress Ore is a nice way to introduce players to use of posses for industrial needs instead using stations for everything. On the other hand it might be nice to use some underused PI products as ingredient or 'flux material' for station compression.

It appears this is not really a high sec miners not compressing problem though seeing your trit and pyerite numbers. It looks more like nobody mining Lowsec ores, which are the major supplier of Isogen/Nocx and in a lesser amount Mex.Which is weird, as they have been the best isk/hour ores in the game for a while and with the new compression ratios you get mad isk/m3 with compressed low sec ores.

As for the High End market collapse, I think CCP should've changed Ore anomalies the same way as they did Pirate anomalies. Remove most high end ores in -0.1 and -0.2 and have more, the lower the security rating gets.



Makes perfect sense tbh. With lowsec being the most dangerous region for miners, the prices have to go up a lot more i suspect before people bother to go there with a prospect. But wouldn't it be nice if they would actually eventually do that?
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#28 - 2014-09-02 19:30:34 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
Grace Chang wrote:
Ore compression is fine. If people can't find enough of it, the simple reason is that they do not pay enough for it to be an incentive (basic market rule and all).


This is obviously untrue, and we've been seeing that since Crius was released. Price signals do not work when the producers are too dimwitted to respond to them. Furthermore the immense effort of compressing any reasonable amount of ore is not a fun addition to the game. Nobody wins when someone's doing an infinite number of round trips to their pos. Their pos has nothing valuble in it, their freighter doesn't either (and even if it did, it's ungankable unless they don't think to dock up) and the actual gameplay is basically a war crime.

Anyone who wants to verify what I say is correct needs only look at the actual compressed ore volume in jita. I have simply halted my T1 building until it's fixed, and I'm not the only one.

edit: I suspect the PL posters seeking to keep ore compression kneecapped are doing so because with their hordes of renters in the drone regions, they've got ample local ore supplies: http://i.imgur.com/nCFLg91.png. With ore compression currently basically unworkable right now, that means they have their competition idle and can raise prices.

I wholeheartedly approve from a screw everyone get yours perspective, but it's not good game design.



As the single largest PL ore user in Drones, I can tell you unequivocally that is NOT true. I buy 50-70 bil a week in Jita and usually less than 5 bil in drones - mostly high ends so I don't have to import them

The big problem is logistics - if you ain't got them, you are hurting

I run 12 freighters and even a Titan only requires a few trips to the old POS to compress

This patch was about getting together and then costs driving us apart, we are starting to see this and teetering on the knife edge is what is going to drive industry

If you get cut, then I suggest you rethink your strategy
mup Deninard
mupcorp
#29 - 2014-09-02 20:40:19 UTC
one of the main things i have noticed is that people are saying that there is not enough supply of compressed ore. the main reason for this is that many small mining gangs don't have access to compression arrays. they either don't want the hassle of setting up a pos or if they have access it costs them a large chunk of their margin. refining was the old compression and all the miner had to do was pay for transport (at most) now it is compression and transport. if you want this fixed then either show that it is easy to set up a pos (and not too expensive) or ask ccp to do the unthinkable and allow the last non combat capital access to hisec ( or allow orcas to compress). with the ship option it would not take long for the compressed ore to flow to jita in large qauntities. even small gangs could see the sense of getting a rorqual and then ccp would actually see rorquals in a belt. obviously most small gangs already have orcas.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#30 - 2014-09-02 20:50:39 UTC
mup Deninard wrote:
one of the main things i have noticed is that people are saying that there is not enough supply of compressed ore. the main reason for this is that many small mining gangs don't have access to compression arrays. they either don't want the hassle of setting up a pos or if they have access it costs them a large chunk of their margin. refining was the old compression and all the miner had to do was pay for transport (at most) now it is compression and transport. if you want this fixed then either show that it is easy to set up a pos (and not too expensive) or ask ccp to do the unthinkable and allow the last non combat capital access to hisec ( or allow orcas to compress). with the ship option it would not take long for the compressed ore to flow to jita in large qauntities. even small gangs could see the sense of getting a rorqual and then ccp would actually see rorquals in a belt. obviously most small gangs already have orcas.


Giving the orca the ability to compress is something I've thought about. I'd still prefer station compression, but this would also be a compromise that would be acceptable.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Retar Aveymone
DJ's Retirement Fund
Goonswarm Federation
#31 - 2014-09-02 20:55:50 UTC
Querns wrote:
mup Deninard wrote:
one of the main things i have noticed is that people are saying that there is not enough supply of compressed ore. the main reason for this is that many small mining gangs don't have access to compression arrays. they either don't want the hassle of setting up a pos or if they have access it costs them a large chunk of their margin. refining was the old compression and all the miner had to do was pay for transport (at most) now it is compression and transport. if you want this fixed then either show that it is easy to set up a pos (and not too expensive) or ask ccp to do the unthinkable and allow the last non combat capital access to hisec ( or allow orcas to compress). with the ship option it would not take long for the compressed ore to flow to jita in large qauntities. even small gangs could see the sense of getting a rorqual and then ccp would actually see rorquals in a belt. obviously most small gangs already have orcas.


Giving the orca the ability to compress is something I've thought about. I'd still prefer station compression, but this would also be a compromise that would be acceptable.

Yeah, this is a solid compromise.
Drago Shouna
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2014-09-02 20:56:13 UTC
mup Deninard wrote:
one of the main things i have noticed is that people are saying that there is not enough supply of compressed ore. the main reason for this is that many small mining gangs don't have access to compression arrays. they either don't want the hassle of setting up a pos or if they have access it costs them a large chunk of their margin. refining was the old compression and all the miner had to do was pay for transport (at most) now it is compression and transport. if you want this fixed then either show that it is easy to set up a pos (and not too expensive) or ask ccp to do the unthinkable and allow the last non combat capital access to hisec ( or allow orcas to compress). with the ship option it would not take long for the compressed ore to flow to jita in large qauntities. even small gangs could see the sense of getting a rorqual and then ccp would actually see rorquals in a belt. obviously most small gangs already have orcas.


Thats most of the points I was making in the previous thread. Putting up a POS as a small corp just ain't worth the hassle, and it never will be.

On the other hand, letting an Orca compress might not be such a bad idea.

It wouldn't be immediately available to everyone joining the game, and the skill training means a lot of new players wouldn't even bother training for it anyway. But the compressed ore available would still increase.

It would increase simply because it would be hassle free for established miners, unlike now.

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#33 - 2014-09-02 20:58:19 UTC
For those worried that allowing the orca to compress would (further) step on the rorqual's toes, fear not -- CCP has stated that the rorqual is next in line for rebalancing. Given the previous track record, I'm putting pretty good odds on a significant curve ball for the rorqual that will set it apart.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#34 - 2014-09-02 21:24:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Querns
Oddly enough, education is the idea of my second point -- putting UI hints in the reprocessing dialog to point towards compression (of any form) does a darn sight better at educating than speaking to individual miners.

double post avoiding edit: Most of the impetus behind my proposed changes is to try to encourage the significant percentage of eve players, who avoid contact with the community whatsoever, to come around to the new normal. These people simply aren't aware that things have changed at all. No amount of forum posting or individual outreach is going to change their habits. This portion of the mineral market comes at the cost of both sides -- compressed ore buyers obviously don't get access to this portion of the market, and self-compressors also can't, because the ore is reprocessed before they have a chance to get their hands on it. Easing this particular section of the market helps both sides.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Tzar Sinak
Mythic Heights
#35 - 2014-09-02 22:30:53 UTC
I find this thread very interesting. It is quite similar to many of the threads in the WH forum.

CCP has changed the mechanics of the game and it is having an impact on the way many in null sec play the game. Instead of asking CCP to change the game to meet null sec needs and effecting everyone else I respectfully suggest null try to adapt to the changes.

Let us see, how do I now get all the minerals I need to build my fleet of capital ships?

I could slow down production.
I could hire miners to mine the low ends exclusively in null sec (better pay them appropriately). Yes, that means anomalies, combat sites, belts (shudder) of many systems.
I could hold mining ops in low sec.
I could take control of some low sec systems for the sole purpose of mining them.
I could hire hi sec miner corps to produce what I need.
I could hire hi sec transport outfits to haul and compress.
I could, wait for it, mine in WH space while linked to my null sec systems.
I could hire WH corps to mine and transport for me.

I could do any combination of the above WITHOUT affecting the rest of the game by insisting on a mechanics change.

Compression mechanics as is is just fine. Time to expand your horizons and possibilities.

Hydrostatic Podcast First class listening of all things EVE

Check out the Eve-Prosper show for your market updates!

Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#36 - 2014-09-02 22:32:17 UTC
Tzar Sinak wrote:
I find this thread very interesting. It is quite similar to many of the threads in the WH forum.

CCP has changed the mechanics of the game and it is having an impact on the way many in null sec play the game. Instead of asking CCP to change the game to meet null sec needs and effecting everyone else I respectfully suggest null try to adapt to the changes.

Let us see, how do I now get all the minerals I need to build my fleet of capital ships?

I could slow down production.
I could hire miners to mine the low ends exclusively in null sec (better pay them appropriately). Yes, that means anomalies, combat sites, belts (shudder) of many systems.
I could hold mining ops in low sec.
I could take control of some low sec systems for the sole purpose of mining them.
I could hire hi sec miner corps to produce what I need.
I could hire hi sec transport outfits to haul and compress.
I could, wait for it, mine in WH space while linked to my null sec systems.
I could hire WH corps to mine and transport for me.

I could do any combination of the above WITHOUT affecting the rest of the game by insisting on a mechanics change.

Compression mechanics as is is just fine. Time to expand your horizons and possibilities.



Did you steal my notes???
Tzar Sinak
Mythic Heights
#37 - 2014-09-02 22:38:38 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Tzar Sinak wrote:
I find this thread very interesting. It is quite similar to many of the threads in the WH forum.

CCP has changed the mechanics of the game and it is having an impact on the way many in null sec play the game. Instead of asking CCP to change the game to meet null sec needs and effecting everyone else I respectfully suggest null try to adapt to the changes.

Let us see, how do I now get all the minerals I need to build my fleet of capital ships?

I could slow down production.
I could hire miners to mine the low ends exclusively in null sec (better pay them appropriately). Yes, that means anomalies, combat sites, belts (shudder) of many systems.
I could hold mining ops in low sec.
I could take control of some low sec systems for the sole purpose of mining them.
I could hire hi sec miner corps to produce what I need.
I could hire hi sec transport outfits to haul and compress.
I could, wait for it, mine in WH space while linked to my null sec systems.
I could hire WH corps to mine and transport for me.

I could do any combination of the above WITHOUT affecting the rest of the game by insisting on a mechanics change.

Compression mechanics as is is just fine. Time to expand your horizons and possibilities.



Did you steal my notes???


Na, just looking at the obvious. Seems that the only education required around here is among the null sec industrialists :)

Hydrostatic Podcast First class listening of all things EVE

Check out the Eve-Prosper show for your market updates!

klana depp
Tr0pa de elite.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#38 - 2014-09-02 23:21:37 UTC
mup Deninard wrote:
one of the main things i have noticed is that people are saying that there is not enough supply of compressed ore. the main reason for this is that many small mining gangs don't have access to compression arrays. they either don't want the hassle of setting up a pos or if they have access it costs them a large chunk of their margin.


sorry that i'm too lazy to actually run the numbers on this but.. seriously?
putting up a small tower with just a compression array .. running for a few hours... is a financial obstacle for a highsec mining op?
?!?
Basil Vulpine
Blueprint Haus
Blades of Grass
#39 - 2014-09-02 23:55:02 UTC
klana depp wrote:
mup Deninard wrote:
one of the main things i have noticed is that people are saying that there is not enough supply of compressed ore. the main reason for this is that many small mining gangs don't have access to compression arrays. they either don't want the hassle of setting up a pos or if they have access it costs them a large chunk of their margin.


sorry that i'm too lazy to actually run the numbers on this but.. seriously?
putting up a small tower with just a compression array .. running for a few hours... is a financial obstacle for a highsec mining op?
?!?


For a small corp they likely don't have an orca (if a small POS is expensive an orca is eyewatering).
Lets say they have decent skills so exhumers is at 4 and can use T1 mining crystals. They've been ganked once or twice so they aren't in a hulk. They have somebody who is hauling their cans for them, it's an alt account so "it is free" and it lets them just sit and mine.

A reasonably durable skiff/mackinaw with skills at 4 mines roughly 1,000 m3 per second. They are mining veldspar because we are talking about people mining low-ends, ISK wise Plagioclase ends up 20% higher roughly. Under these conditions each miner earns roughly 170k ISK per minute or a bit over 10 mill per hour mining Veld continuously.

A small POS is 60 mill. The compression array about 35 mil. Fuel blocks are 160k per hour. Assuming they are aware that they can simply leave the POS offline most of the time and just run it for 2 hours a day the fuel is negligible. The hardware is going to take them 10 man hours to acquire so probably a whole evenings worth for a 2 or 3 man outfit.

Would you commit an evening for you and a couple of friends to buy something you don't really understand, is a little bit daunting because everybody says that the UI for it is unfriendly and that doesn't seem to benefit you much? Sure it makes the ore easier to move but then so does refining it. And they can refine it pretty well if they have T1 or T2 crystals in their strip miners. Or they can can work towards that 80 hours per month they need to be able to plex their account and then use the extra ISK for skillbooks etc. while they skill up for whatever.
Korsiri
Defying Vision
Iron Associates
#40 - 2014-09-03 00:37:28 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Jarnis McPieksu wrote:
Do not change ore compression.

If you absolutely must, simplify the three ore types into one compressed type, but otherwise do not touch anything. The system is fine.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.




*Snip* Removed reply to an edited out part of the quoted post. ISD Ezwal.

But anywho, I don't think ore compression needs to change, just because the market isn't there yet since people aren't all waking up to it. That's just a silly reason to change something that's working. I think people just need more time to get used to the idea.