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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] K162 Signatures Appearing on First Jump

First post
Author
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#281 - 2014-08-25 14:13:43 UTC
d'Arma Edd wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone.

Like I mentioned earlier in the thread we completely agree with the concerns raised here about this change potentially decreasing the number of exits to K-space dramatically.

We've done a bit more investigating and chatting with the CSM and we are currently planning to give K162s a random chance to appear every once and a while whenever they have less than 15 hours of lifespan remaining.

Under this system, the K162 spawning mechanics would be as follows:
  • K162 wormholes and signatures are spawned in an invisible state when someone initiated warp to the other side of the connection.
  • K162 signatures become immediately visible when someone jumps through the wormhole connection for the first time.
  • IF the K162 signature is in an invisible state and the wormhole connection has less than 15 hours of lifetime remaining, it will have a chance of becoming visible every few minutes, balanced so that virtually all K162s will appear within a couple hours or less from this point.

This will ensure that if people choose not to warp through their wormhole connections after warping to them, the wormhole systems on the other side will still gain the ability to use that connection eventually.

Patch Notes wrote:
The wormhole changes include:

    ...
  • K162 appearance only on first jump
  • ...

Patch notes are incomplete OR all other changes not implemented (yet)?


The latest announced changes are in and working. The wording on the patch notes isn't as clear as it should be so I'll see about getting it fixed. Thanks.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings
#282 - 2014-08-25 14:51:29 UTC
I'll admit I haven't gone through this whole thread to find the answer, but does this basically mean that for C4 space, all invisible k162's will start to have a chance of becoming visible within 1 hour of warping to it? Since all C4 connected WH's are only 16 hours instead of 24?
Alundil
Rolled Out
#283 - 2014-08-25 21:38:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Alundil
Derath Ellecon wrote:
I'll admit I haven't gone through this whole thread to find the answer, but does this basically mean that for C4 space, all invisible k162's will start to have a chance of becoming visible within 1 hour of warping to it? Since all C4 connected WH's are only 16 hours instead of 24?

That would be my understanding of the proposed wording, yes.
Start planning on what ideal homes are based on new time spawn changes?

I'm right behind you

umnikar
Fishbone Industries
#284 - 2014-08-25 21:54:38 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
I'll admit I haven't gone through this whole thread to find the answer, but does this basically mean that for C4 space, all invisible k162's will start to have a chance of becoming visible within 1 hour of warping to it? Since all C4 connected WH's are only 16 hours instead of 24?


Yes, but if you do not initiate warp, it will not even go into invisible state. So it will not change your current "lockup" behavior.
Just if you warp to - which you dont because you know your statics...

That other people forming a fleet on your invisible k-162 is your surprise(content) then. P
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings
#285 - 2014-08-25 22:15:13 UTC
umnikar wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
I'll admit I haven't gone through this whole thread to find the answer, but does this basically mean that for C4 space, all invisible k162's will start to have a chance of becoming visible within 1 hour of warping to it? Since all C4 connected WH's are only 16 hours instead of 24?


Yes, but if you do not initiate warp, it will not even go into invisible state. So it will not change your current "lockup" behavior.
Just if you warp to - which you dont because you know your statics...

That other people forming a fleet on your invisible k-162 is your surprise(content) then. P


Not sure if jab, but it doesn't really matter, I was just curious. We don't have a current "lockup"n behavior because we generally assume the static to be open.
Tiger Tesla
Patriot Security Services
New Signature
#286 - 2014-08-26 13:31:57 UTC
CCP Fozzie,

As was brought up in the wormhole town hall, are the 16 hour wormholes going to have a different timer than the 15 hour timer? If not, you are saying that all other wormholes that close their static and warp to their new sig will have 8 hours of knowing that the other side is closed, where as 16 hour wormholes will only have a closed/warped to static for a guaranteed 1 hour?

I know you want to make wormhole space more dangerous, but when every single change seems to hurt lower class wormholes, especially C4s, it kind of sucks. Especially because this was brought to your attention by Corbexx.

Listen to the people that live in wormholes. We aren't complaining, we were just upset that our voices seemed to be viewed as 'noise' if we were upset about the direction of a change.
Julia Kristeva
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#287 - 2014-08-26 13:39:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Julia Kristeva
As far as I can tell, you can't see from the K162-side that a wormhole only allowes frigate size ships (by visual identification, so you don't have to drop cloak). I can imagine this being really annoying if you use something like a T3 for scouting/scanning. A visual identifier, like a different color or at the very least a notification in the description, would be nice.
Enthropic
Perkone
Caldari State
#288 - 2014-08-26 13:43:12 UTC
Julia Kristeva wrote:
As far as I can tell, you can't see from the K162-side that a wormhole only allowes frigate size ships (by visual indentification, so you don't have to drop cloak). I can imagine this being really annoying if you use something like a T3 for scanning.


yes, confirmed, I just tested it on TQ.
kinda forces you to use a frig to scout any K162s or get stuck on the WH at zero with a T3 and risk getting tackled.
Fabulous Visage
Bad-Dragon Industries
#289 - 2014-08-26 14:31:35 UTC
So it still boggles my head.

If I would be in lets say, nullsec space. Would there still wormholes signatures to be scanned down? And if I would jump trough the signature for the exit to nullspace would popup on your scanner, right? Which means as long as no one touches the wormhole your nullsec ratting space would be save of wormhole raiders, am I right?
Bar0th
DYNAMIC INTERVENTION
ORPHANS OF EVE
#290 - 2014-08-26 14:50:05 UTC
Fabulous Visage wrote:
So it still boggles my head.

If I would be in lets say, nullsec space. Would there still wormholes signatures to be scanned down? And if I would jump trough the signature for the exit to nullspace would popup on your scanner, right? Which means as long as no one touches the wormhole your nullsec ratting space would be save of wormhole raiders, am I right?


Basically, the mechanics are almost identical as before. If you jump through the wormhole, the K162 will spawn. If nobody grids (warps to) the wormhole, it will stay shut indefinitely. If someone does grid the wormhole (and doesn't jump through), it will stay shut until it has 15hrs of life remaining, at which point it can randomly open at any time.
King Akira
Perkone
Caldari State
#291 - 2014-08-27 06:12:19 UTC  |  Edited by: King Akira
I love everything about the idea except for 1 part,
the "nearly unsaleable" attribute.

To have an absolute like that does indeed feel totally uncontrollable.
It already is very risky to collapse a wormhole.
The element of risk vs reward should always be there.
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#292 - 2014-08-28 03:48:27 UTC
WTH are you thinking CCP! or not thinking! Real Black holes reduce sensor strength, targeting range, and increase inertia! Gravity wells and waves seriously mess up any observations at distance! So don't call this wh with anti-black hole effects a black hole wh! This wormhole should really just be called the "space gel reducing" wormhole because it lessens the effects of space gel constantly slowing down our ships by a small degree!

And do larger ganking groups really need a buff against smaller less-prepared groups? Really?! We don't need a new mechanic for letting the wh pvp group bring massive fleets into known space (or wh space) without the K162 wh being seen and anticipated. Just like your stupid gate camping mechanics allow large fleets to insta-kill solo travelers force the ishtar-love to get nerfed twice back into insignificance.

STOP buffing large fleets against smaller groups! They don't need the help.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 

krazyskillz
If we die it's lag
#293 - 2014-08-28 03:52:57 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
WTH are you thinking CCP! or not thinking! Real Black holes reduce sensor strength, targeting range, and increase inertia! Gravity wells and waves seriously mess up any observations at distance! So don't call this wh with anti-black hole effects a black hole wh! This wormhole should really just be called the "space gel reducing" wormhole because it lessens the effects of space gel constantly slowing down our ships by a small degree!

And do larger ganking groups really need a buff against smaller less-prepared groups? Really?! We don't need a new mechanic for letting the wh pvp group bring massive fleets into known space (or wh space) without the K162 wh being seen and anticipated. Just like your stupid gate camping mechanics allow large fleets to insta-kill solo travelers force the ishtar-love to get nerfed twice back into insignificance.

STOP buffing large fleets against smaller groups! They don't need the help.


Correct thread =)
Denis Berezin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#294 - 2014-08-28 12:13:36 UTC
Dear CCP!
Have you thought about ordinary miners living in W-space?
Gravy anomaly scan is not necessary.
Cooldown of warp barge - 20 seconds. Frigates Warp instantly.
Displaying new signaruty only after frigate already flying towards the miner. Update scan for see new k162 not every second.
You think only of those who will kill us.
Where is the logic?
Delveling
Glowing Goat
Black Fence.
#295 - 2014-08-29 10:54:43 UTC
Buba Neagra wrote:
So let me get this straight : I may be in 0.0 system and have let's say 5 potential wh's in there but I can see none unless the one from the other side jumps in. WH guys will just have time to gather up, put up a consistent fleet and jump in when they are all ready to engage.

How is that fair to me ?

Let's say I'm in a freighter, warping to the gate, having intel 10 system radius so I'm safe. But...I'm not since I have no signature on dscan.

Therefore, I live in 0.0 but in wh terms. That is not FAIR. Make this change if you want for connections with other wormholes, not high, lowsec or 0.0.


How different is this compared to the old system?

They scan down a WH, form a fleet, warp to nearby planet and align and fleetwarp to WH. You get maybe a 5-10 seconds early warning before they land on 0.0.
Buba Neagra
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#296 - 2014-08-29 16:58:37 UTC
Delveling wrote:
Buba Neagra wrote:
So let me get this straight : I may be in 0.0 system and have let's say 5 potential wh's in there but I can see none unless the one from the other side jumps in. WH guys will just have time to gather up, put up a consistent fleet and jump in when they are all ready to engage.

How is that fair to me ?

Let's say I'm in a freighter, warping to the gate, having intel 10 system radius so I'm safe. But...I'm not since I have no signature on dscan.

Therefore, I live in 0.0 but in wh terms. That is not FAIR. Make this change if you want for connections with other wormholes, not high, lowsec or 0.0.


How different is this compared to the old system?

They scan down a WH, form a fleet, warp to nearby planet and align and fleetwarp to WH. You get maybe a 5-10 seconds early warning before they land on 0.0.



Pre-patch, the moment you were warping to a wormhole, would appear a signature on the other side. Even like that, I had to refresh the scan to see it. So wasn't that easy even before patch. Now if you warp to a wormhole, no signature appears on the other side unless you jump through it.

So if the attacker finds a wormhole has all the time in the world to prepare an attack. The defender has no clue ever what's about to happen. I find that not FAIR for the defender.
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#297 - 2014-08-29 17:04:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Valenthe de Celine
Buba Neagra wrote:
Delveling wrote:
Buba Neagra wrote:
So let me get this straight : I may be in 0.0 system and have let's say 5 potential wh's in there but I can see none unless the one from the other side jumps in. WH guys will just have time to gather up, put up a consistent fleet and jump in when they are all ready to engage.

How is that fair to me ?

Let's say I'm in a freighter, warping to the gate, having intel 10 system radius so I'm safe. But...I'm not since I have no signature on dscan.

Therefore, I live in 0.0 but in wh terms. That is not FAIR. Make this change if you want for connections with other wormholes, not high, lowsec or 0.0.


How different is this compared to the old system?

They scan down a WH, form a fleet, warp to nearby planet and align and fleetwarp to WH. You get maybe a 5-10 seconds early warning before they land on 0.0.


Pre-patch, the moment you were warping to a wormhole, would appear a signature on the other side. Even like that, I had to refresh the scan to see it. So wasn't that easy even before patch. Now if you warp to a wormhole, no signature appears on the other side unless you jump through it.

So if the attacker finds a wormhole has all the time in the world to prepare an attack. The defender has no clue ever what's about to happen. I find that not FAIR for the defender.

This is an incredibly lazy and bearish attitude for someone living outside of highsec. There ARE boogiemen out there. Who the hell uses a freighter in nullsec, anyway?

We have this exact mechanic down when running a PVE fleet inside a WH. It's called one person gets paid a cut of the sites to sit there, with combat probes out, and watch for anything that twitches: ship, probe, drone, sig, anom, ANYTHING. Then we can get the capitals to safety, reship to T3s, and see what fresh young thing gets to be our victim for interrupting a fleet in action.

Edit: So I guess what I'm trying to say is, rather than trying to fly a lumbering lootbagmobile through null on your own, hire someone or have friends scout for you.
Buba Neagra
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#298 - 2014-08-29 17:23:56 UTC
Valenthe de Celine wrote:
Buba Neagra wrote:
Delveling wrote:
Buba Neagra wrote:
So let me get this straight : I may be in 0.0 system and have let's say 5 potential wh's in there but I can see none unless the one from the other side jumps in. WH guys will just have time to gather up, put up a consistent fleet and jump in when they are all ready to engage.

How is that fair to me ?

Let's say I'm in a freighter, warping to the gate, having intel 10 system radius so I'm safe. But...I'm not since I have no signature on dscan.

Therefore, I live in 0.0 but in wh terms. That is not FAIR. Make this change if you want for connections with other wormholes, not high, lowsec or 0.0.


How different is this compared to the old system?

They scan down a WH, form a fleet, warp to nearby planet and align and fleetwarp to WH. You get maybe a 5-10 seconds early warning before they land on 0.0.


Pre-patch, the moment you were warping to a wormhole, would appear a signature on the other side. Even like that, I had to refresh the scan to see it. So wasn't that easy even before patch. Now if you warp to a wormhole, no signature appears on the other side unless you jump through it.

So if the attacker finds a wormhole has all the time in the world to prepare an attack. The defender has no clue ever what's about to happen. I find that not FAIR for the defender.

This is an incredibly lazy and bearish attitude for someone living outside of highsec. There ARE boogiemen out there. Who the hell uses a freighter in nullsec, anyway?

We have this exact mechanic down when running a PVE fleet inside a WH. It's called one person gets paid a cut of the sites to sit there, with combat probes out, and watch for anything that twitches: ship, probe, drone, sig, anom, ANYTHING. Then we can get the capitals to safety, reship to T3s, and see what fresh young thing gets to be our victim for interrupting a fleet in action.

Edit: So I guess what I'm trying to say is, rather than trying to fly a lumbering lootbagmobile through null on your own, hire someone or have friends scout for you.



Dude...what's to scout if you have no signature on scan ? What can you do when the local fills up in a second out of nowhere ?
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
#299 - 2014-08-29 19:32:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Rift
Buba Neagra wrote:
Valenthe de Celine wrote:
Buba Neagra wrote:
Delveling wrote:
Buba Neagra wrote:
So let me get this straight : I may be in 0.0 system and have let's say 5 potential wh's in there but I can see none unless the one from the other side jumps in. WH guys will just have time to gather up, put up a consistent fleet and jump in when they are all ready to engage.

How is that fair to me ?

Let's say I'm in a freighter, warping to the gate, having intel 10 system radius so I'm safe. But...I'm not since I have no signature on dscan.

Therefore, I live in 0.0 but in wh terms. That is not FAIR. Make this change if you want for connections with other wormholes, not high, lowsec or 0.0.


How different is this compared to the old system?

They scan down a WH, form a fleet, warp to nearby planet and align and fleetwarp to WH. You get maybe a 5-10 seconds early warning before they land on 0.0.


Pre-patch, the moment you were warping to a wormhole, would appear a signature on the other side. Even like that, I had to refresh the scan to see it. So wasn't that easy even before patch. Now if you warp to a wormhole, no signature appears on the other side unless you jump through it.

So if the attacker finds a wormhole has all the time in the world to prepare an attack. The defender has no clue ever what's about to happen. I find that not FAIR for the defender.

This is an incredibly lazy and bearish attitude for someone living outside of highsec. There ARE boogiemen out there. Who the hell uses a freighter in nullsec, anyway?

We have this exact mechanic down when running a PVE fleet inside a WH. It's called one person gets paid a cut of the sites to sit there, with combat probes out, and watch for anything that twitches: ship, probe, drone, sig, anom, ANYTHING. Then we can get the capitals to safety, reship to T3s, and see what fresh young thing gets to be our victim for interrupting a fleet in action.

Edit: So I guess what I'm trying to say is, rather than trying to fly a lumbering lootbagmobile through null on your own, hire someone or have friends scout for you.



Dude...what's to scout if you have no signature on scan ? What can you do when the local fills up in a second out of nowhere ?


you dock or move to a pos or move to next system. If your are flying around null sec with webs on the freighter.

And you realize that's how sites are run in wh's they don't have the magic of local to tell time a gang just entered system to safe up their capitals.


the other assumption made is that the people on the other side of the wh know exactly what they are getting into. They don't once they jump they still have to locate you.
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#300 - 2014-08-30 01:57:33 UTC
Lady Rift wrote:
Buba Neagra wrote:
Dude...what's to scout if you have no signature on scan ? What can you do when the local fills up in a second out of nowhere ?


you dock or move to a pos or move to next system. If your are flying around null sec with webs on the freighter.

And you realize that's how sites are run in wh's they don't have the magic of local to tell time a gang just entered system to safe up their capitals.


the other assumption made is that the people on the other side of the wh know exactly what they are getting into. They don't once they jump they still have to locate you.

First of all, no sigs on D-scan isn't the only clue. How about the set of combat probes out and someone tapping scan on them every 10 seconds or so?

Second, what about using their eyes to watch local, something WH residents never use? (Because we're smart enough not to talk there, and because until anyone talks they don't show up.)

Third, how about having more than one scout? Your transport's system is great. The system ahead of you is great, too. If you don't have guards, though, or a webbing ship to help, you're still gonna die just from how slowly a Freighter aligns and warps. (Again, who the heck uses a Freighter in null? With no scouts or guards? Seriously, this is making me think we need to roam there more often! Free freighter kills, no gank needed, no sec status loss, no scouts, no guards, lots of warning from local!)