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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] Mass-Based Spawn Distance After WH Jumps

First post First post First post
Author
Traiori
Going Critical
#1001 - 2014-08-17 00:05:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Traiori
I said it earlier in this thread and I'll say it again. Whether it's 40km, 20km or 15km:

- It's still faster to warp off and on the hole with anything larger than a battleship
- It's still creating issues with refitting ranges for capitals
- It's still creating dispersal problems for T3 blobs (granting another advantage to homeside)
- Orcas will still die, quite quickly, when they land outside return jump range. Though, of course, they were probably going to get caught anyway
- It still means we can't take capitals out into nullsec, or multiple capitals into enemy systems


In short, your proposed "fix" to the solution does nothing to fix any of the issues that we have with your proposed change.

If you want to fix the issue, reverse the calculation and as per my suggestion on page one with so much attention that I'm still getting notifications 10 days later, change it so that ships spawn inversely proportional to mass and directly proportional to max speed (after modifiers such as "does this ship have a MWD on"). This means that heavy ships land closer and that lighter ships land further, and could perhaps bring about the birth of variation in the meta.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1002 - 2014-08-17 01:05:55 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
FOZZIE, I tried to put this across on the town hall but did a bad job of trying to explain a complex idea in a few words.

The issue is not that Eve does not have elements of luck, It is that with this mechanic It is a matter of whether one jumps through and by pure luck lands in an unfortunate or fortunate part of the sphere of exit.

With this change There is nothing one can do to influence the chance of you living or dying, It is pure luck.
You have removed the opportunity for players to influence their environment.

Now it can be argued that that is exactly what happens with a known space gate.

And it is the freedom of these random chances to live or die that is and has always been a major part of the mechanics of wormhole space.

Closing and rolling holes currently is NOT risk free, skill and knowledge and experience can reduce that risk however.

But now.
Nothing one can do. A bad landing due to luck and it is all over.

Is it surprising that when skill ability and tactics are no help other than for the choice to jump or not, and one is a slave to just blind luck that people are somewhat upset?

The corollary to this is that it achieves the diametric opposite to your stated goals, and just takes people out of space and into their pos shields or log off waiting for better "luck" the next time they play.

For large corps it will be more of a pain, the risk and chance can be mitigated with numbers and support ships.

For medium and small corps, you have just made them victims to chance, and they will not take those odds.
Reduce the odds, and it is still just a misplaced and ineffective concept that improves nothing, and will fail in its stated goals.

This is NOT about players resisting change, It is about players advising you that you are implementing a BAD change.

Give us a mechanic that encourages fights on or off the hole, where skill tactics and training influence the outcome, and we will love you for it as that would be GOOD change.

Please, please put this idea aside and reach out to the community for how this could be achieved, most of us wish for greater opportunities for skilful combat, even if we lose horribly.
Even If it slips Hyperion, it is not a loss, we will have dodged a bullet, and will be grateful for a good replacement.
Theres lots of good and interesting stuff, we will not miss this.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Suev Raylap
Dropbears Anonymous
Brave Collective
#1003 - 2014-08-17 01:28:36 UTC
As this change is rather controversial and has major potential to change j-space life wouldn't it make sense to postpone this change for a month to continue to consider the implications and give time for the wormhole community to continue to offer feedback.

You moved to a monthly release schedule. A major benefit of which is that it allows you to postpone issues like this while still releasing them soon.

Postponing a change for a month to make sure it is a good change makes sense to me.
Bleedingthrough
#1004 - 2014-08-17 01:30:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Bleedingthrough
I actually like what was discussed when CCP left the field:

Make the distance and direction and speed you spawn at the other side of a WH based on speed and direction you enter the WH.

This opens a broad spectrum of new tactics and gives the players control over their actions.
Thatt Guy
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1005 - 2014-08-17 02:08:03 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:


We don't do design by vote...


Source: https://soundcloud.com/atomycx/wormhole-townhall-with-ccp-fozzie @ 23:23

*This is NOT a rumor, speculation, or a slight to a CCP Employee, but a direct quote, with source for proof.


So basically, our feedback doesn't matter to Fozzie or CCP.

/done

Haters gonna hate, Trolls gonna troll.

Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
Reigns Of Blood
#1006 - 2014-08-17 02:39:34 UTC
It was going to be the best expansion in years
If not for this tiny detail
:~~\

Down the pole podcast "Annhhh"

Edgar Strangelove
Adhocracy Incorporated
Adhocracy
#1007 - 2014-08-17 03:54:43 UTC
This does not solve the problem that the initial proposal created: that it makes us spend more time doing tedious things. Our ability to create content and enjoy this game is directly impacted by this change.

EVE players always adapt to unfun things that stand between them and fun because we have to. It does not mean that such adaptation is good. It means we want to play the game. More barriers to fun mean more burned out people. More burned out people means less active corporations. Less active corporations in a sparsely populated area of space that revolves around PvP and hunting people doing PvE means less content for everyone.

The K162 change, small as you may perceive it to be, is enough to change w-space significantly. Something that small changes the game we play entirely. This change is overkill, especially with the K162 change in the works. It discourages us from wanting to go out and engage with our environment. If we don't want to engage with the environment, we won't take the risks associated with doing so.
Sith1s Spectre
Sky Fighters
Rote Kapelle
#1008 - 2014-08-17 04:01:12 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. I want to thank you for all the reasoned feedback posted here, in your third party blogs, and passed along to the CSM.

We've made some changes to the plan and updated the dev blog with the new version (It may take a few minutes to apply).

The goal with this set of tweaks is to make the time required to return to the wormhole (or to get within refit range of your friends) for average jumps shorter, while keeping a significant element of risk.
To reach these goals, we're pulling the base spawn distance for large ships in significantly, to below 14km.
At the same time we'll be adding a new mechanic that modulates the randomness of your jump based on how close a wormhole is to collapse. For a fresh wormhole with none of its mass limit used, the deviation from the base distance will be a maximum of 2km. For a jump that collapses the wormhole, the maximum deviation (which can send you even closer to the wormhole or farther away) will be a maximum of 5km.

This brings the average jump distance down significantly while preventing complete safety and giving players a new element to consider in their strategic decision making.

Good changes Fozzie. Stick to your guns

Resident forum troll and fashion consultant

Hatshepsut IV
Un.Reasonable
#1009 - 2014-08-17 07:20:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Hatshepsut IV
Thatt Guy wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


We don't do design by vote...


Source: https://soundcloud.com/atomycx/wormhole-townhall-with-ccp-fozzie @ 23:23

*This is NOT a rumor, speculation, or a slight to a CCP Employee, but a direct quote, with source for proof.


So basically, our feedback doesn't matter to Fozzie or CCP.

/done



There's a ton of stuff I can say/repeat against this change. But why bother. It's clear by feedback you mean the buzzword version of it. The one that goes in the same sentence as agile responsive company procedures. So here's something else for you to ignore.

I'm a chef.

I don't cook by vote either, but by the same token you better don't put something on the menu you know 90 percent of your customers won't eat/order.


You can claim the moral high ground of design, that's admirable. However by doing that you also need to show us you have a master plan with actual design. Gimmicky hokey things like frigate wormholes and scrambling jump mechanics around is the video game equivalent of giving out half off coupons.


Give us real meaningful content, if your going to basically ignore our feedback fine. Just don't be surprised at backlash when you ask for it then basically ignore it.

Public Channel | Un.Welcome

Winthorp
#1010 - 2014-08-17 07:34:52 UTC
Hatshepsut IV wrote:


I'm a chef.

I don't cook by vote either, but by the same token you better don't put something on the menu you know 90 percent of your customers won't eat/order.

.


So as a chef you never put new things on the menu just because a few rich old and bitter neckbeards say it will taste ****?

Maybe you would be a better chef if like CCP you tried out a few new dishes and see if the other less vocal people end up really loving them, you never know it could be a real hit and if its not you can always go back to the same boring meal you have been dishing up for years.
Lemonades
Viperfleet Inc.
Official Winners Of Takeshi's Castle
#1011 - 2014-08-17 07:42:50 UTC
I think CCP not seriously responding to 100+ pages in threads is very, very bad and also might be a bad precursor for the future. I also would like to thank Fozzie for his time, giving up his night, although most the things he responded were not in-depth or were weak promises for future stuff that we can never recall him on. If CCP was serious there would be more than one dev there.

The only thing the mass changes will make sure is less rolling, more possing up so there will be less liquid isk in the wallets of wormhole people because they simply won't do stuff. This is good for ccp my friends, because, we will pay more and plex our accounts less. Otherwise I have no idea why ccl would implement these changes.
Hatshepsut IV
Un.Reasonable
#1012 - 2014-08-17 07:46:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Hatshepsut IV
Winthrop wrote:
stuff
It's been far more then just a few bitter rich neck beards against these changes.

Is the analogy I used perfect? No. None are but the valid point stands.

If you want a further comparison. No fine dining restaurant of any caliber worth eating ever puts anything on the menu without exhaustive testing and refinement/iteration. You don't strive to uphold high standards by just randomly hoping for awesome.

These changes by any standard haven't even really been on test as a whole long enough to even do that.

Public Channel | Un.Welcome

Hatshepsut IV
Un.Reasonable
#1013 - 2014-08-17 07:48:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Hatshepsut IV
Silly tablet double posting.

Public Channel | Un.Welcome

Charles37
Bookmark Both Sides
#1014 - 2014-08-17 08:06:36 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. I want to thank you for all the reasoned feedback posted here, in your third party blogs, and passed along to the CSM.

We've made some changes to the plan and updated the dev blog with the new version (It may take a few minutes to apply).

The goal with this set of tweaks is to make the time required to return to the wormhole (or to get within refit range of your friends) for average jumps shorter, while keeping a significant element of risk.
To reach these goals, we're pulling the base spawn distance for large ships in significantly, to below 14km.
At the same time we'll be adding a new mechanic that modulates the randomness of your jump based on how close a wormhole is to collapse. For a fresh wormhole with none of its mass limit used, the deviation from the base distance will be a maximum of 2km. For a jump that collapses the wormhole, the maximum deviation (which can send you even closer to the wormhole or farther away) will be a maximum of 5km.

This brings the average jump distance down significantly while preventing complete safety and giving players a new element to consider in their strategic decision making.


I want to start off by saying that the way that you are communicating this change is extremely upsetting, not to mention underhanded. You posted these new changes 10 minutes before the WH Townhall meeting where it was very obvious that this would be one of the main topics of discussion. I just rechecked the thread for dev posts, and there was nothing in here for almost 10 days, no updates, no indications of what you're considering, just silence. Springing these changes at this time, essentially during the WH Townhall, makes it very difficult for us to evaluate the effect that the new numbers have. It didn't give us any time to test it or gain a better understanding of the new mechanic that's being piled on top of this already new mechanic (collapse % randomness modulation). I certainly hope I'm mistaken here, but it certainly feels that with this change in particular the dev team is purposefully dragging their feet, dragging it out as long as possible while the release date for the Hyperion patch draws closer and closer, until eventually you can just say "Sorry, it's too close to the launch of the patch, we already finalized all the changes."

These new numbers don't change or address the enormous list of concerns that have already been raised in this thread. Traiori has stated the majority of these concerns very succinctly and clearly on page 1 for you to read, but these concerns are still unaddressed and undiscussed by devs here.

This is going to kill a lot of options for WH corporations without giving us anything in return. I'm still waiting to see an explanation of how this is supposed to benefit WH space overall. From the tone in the dev blog and the very sparse postings here, it sounds like this is change for the sake of making changes. If there's some information to the contrary, I would gladly read (or listen) to it.
Julia Rusakova
Area51.net
#1015 - 2014-08-17 08:16:12 UTC
Rather than write a wall of text...

I vote to kill this so called new feature period.

/end


GDNebu
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#1016 - 2014-08-17 08:23:49 UTC
Fozzie, first of all I'd like to thank you for coming to the WH Townhall yesterday. You gave us your views and reasonings why you want these changes and I'd like to answer to some of the things I heard. Some of this applies to the new frigate wormholes and the K162 changes as well.

Correct me if Im wrong, but you said that you want wormholers to rely more on their chain connection to find their content instead of "ragerolling" for it, and also that you want wormholes to be more random and unpredictable. I haven't read all of the thread but people have already given a number of arguments against this change and some for it, but I want to look at it from a slightly different viewpoint.

Different groups and corps have come into wormhole space and settled in the system that best suits their needs. Small, industrial oriented groups have settled in the lower classes of wormholes with high or low sec statics. PVE oriented groups are mostly in the higher class systems with a static that allows them to also do PVE in their static. Then there's the PVP groups. They'll choose a system with a low-sec static if they like low-sec PVP, a low-class WH static if they like roaming WHs in smaller numbers, or a high-class WH static if they want to catch capital escalation site runners. For example I think it was Bronya Boga yesterday who said they live in a C5-C2 because they enjoy the smaller group PVP in lower-class WHs, but they also want to play with the higher-class guys once in a while when they get rolled into. All of these groups have found the WH that suits their needs, but they also have access to everything else W-space offers by scanning their chain further down the static or by random WHs that connect to and from their home system. Now if they don't find the content they want in their static or the chain, they'll want to roll. But if they deem it too unsafe to roll, whats going to happen? They're going to POS up and twiddle their thumbs or play a different game until another entity rolls the hole or it dies naturally, which can take up to 24 hours.

Obviously this doesnt really effect the larger groups, I doubt much is going to change for HK except maybe adding a rapier pilot to our hole rolling team to web the capital off. But consider something else. Let's not kid ourselves, EVE is sometimes a harsh mistress. We endure a lot to do what we do to live in WHs. Luckily I haven't been here before corp bookmarks or before POS fuel blocks were introduced, but I can imagine how tedious it was. People still managed, but things just took a bit longer. You keep asking us for small things that will improve our quality of life (and thats not just wormholes, thats for EVE as a whole). The UI and some gameplay elements are changing and improving to allow us do the stuff we want to do, which is fun, faster, and not have to bother with something like finding out exactly how much m3 I need to keep my POS running for another month. Ofcourse, there's people who might enjoy this aspect, I even heard there are people who enjoy scanning. We can copy bookmarks faster after Hyperion, and maybe save 10 seconds doing that, yay. But at the same time, we are going to be spending 5 more minutes rolling our connection. I know Im complaining about something that might seem like a mere nuisance to some people but its about the principle and I hope you know what I mean with that.

Now I know that ultimately you want to create more content and a less risk-free environment for wormholers and people in this thread have given a lot of arguments why this is the bad way to go about this, and some arguments for the change. But mostly against it. I'll give you one more argument against. Hole rolling as it is right now isnt risk-free. HK has caught a number of capitals that were rolling their hole, simply by going all in and crossjumping them into their own home system. One of our pilots even solo killed an Orca using a Stiletto after the hole closed behind them. It took him over 30 minutes and all the residents could do was warp two cov ops to try and get the Orca out, but they both died as well. Because groups feel confident that they can roll in safety, they get caught. If they dont think they can roll safely, they wont, and they wont get caught. Also, we dont really WANT to catch hole-rollers. We WANT them to be safe with all their connections closed, so they can run their sites and we can drop on their 4+ capitals instead of killing just 1 on the hole. But if they have an incoming WH they cant close, like the new frigate WH, what you are basically telling them is that they can go and do something different than playing EVE for the next 16 hours, and you are also reducing the chance of us catching them running sites (ergo, less content). Now this has all already been said before in this thread and elsewhere so I'll just stop here.
In summary, from my own point of view:

Mass-based spawn distance: NO
K162 changes: great, especially after the last update
Frigate WHs: yes, but at the same time no (create more content but at the same time destroy some other)
Bookmarks: hell yeah
Effects Rebalance: I see where you are going with it, should be good with some minor tweaks.
Second Static C4: Don't live in one, but having one in your chain is a major PITA, so yes to those.
Winthorp
#1017 - 2014-08-17 09:36:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Winthorp
So after listening to the town hall section that was regarding mass/distance i heard a lot of people claim some absurd **** like they kill 3-4 caps hole rolling a week... (Your KB's tells me that's not so true..........)

There has been so many other people mention that they constantly catch caps rolling and TBH i think its bullshit, sure i have killed caps rolling and a cap gank is easy to set up but it really isn't anywhere near what you claim.

Please post your SUCCESSIVE hole rolling cap KM's to prove me wrong. (Don't bother posting me the KM you got 3 weeks ago then 4 months prior to that...)
Jezza McWaffle
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#1018 - 2014-08-17 10:00:56 UTC
So Fozzie is it your intention to ruin any Capital based PvP? Because while you are making rolling harder no one other than Winthorp actually thinks this change may bring anything good to wormholes. Attackers jumping capitals into a a well set up defensive group are going to get f*****. Im sorry Mr Dread you landed way outside refit distance and you have to use long range low damage ammo to hit your targets.

Wormholes worst badass | Checkout my Wormhole blog

Cedeves XVII
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1019 - 2014-08-17 11:20:23 UTC
After listening to the town hall i am disappointed how little attention was given to combat use of caps. This change while a huge pain in the ass for rage rolling, ect does not eliminate that. What i am most worried about is the now impossible use of combat caps when attacking through a hole, committing a triage or a blap dread is now a suicidal option unless you hold the field, you will never be able to have a tactical retreat of a capital in WH fights and this will simply prevent their usage as a force multiplier and only be used when you already have the force advantage to just prevent a few of your own losses. Beyond not being able to refit caps that appears outside of jump back range will ever get back to that hole. Now your only option for reps is to have enough people to bring a huge number of guardians, you don't have that many people apparently CCP is telling you to bad go cry in a corner this game where the only thing that matters is how many friends you have.

Capital ships can also no longer be used to split a larger group by closing a hole half way through their fleet. of course this also makes it near impossible to trap people inside your hole to kill them, it leaves an escape route open for sub-cap only fleets.

And now onto something less combat usage of caps focused.

CCP says they want to encourage longer chains the problem is anyone who wants longer chains will already get them. I tend to play in very late US TZ and half the time i call to roll our static is not because it has ended but it has instead gotten to the point of being unnavigable, i cant go hunting when my reinforcements are 20 jumps out, and maybe if this create much wider chains i wouldn't have this problem, but after a whole lot of experience in how our chains work i seriously don't expect that to change. Groups that want to keep their chains very short will still do so, they have not been able to just sit on short chains by fully exploring chains, those chains are rare 9 times our of 10 the reason you have a short chain is because you have not fully explored it, and when you do have one of those short chains you should be able to get rid of it as fast as possible, as it simply is not fun.

One more thing about the way the chains work (at least to a C6 resident). If our static is active we wont make a chain through it, so when we do make our changes our rolling fleet will be safe, the only time our rolling fleet will be under threat (and there fore we wont use it) is when we come up against a group we simply cannot fight. Now when we get unlucky and open into a group we simply cannot fight with out effectively committing suicide we are stuck with them in the chain we cannot go find someone our own size (for the time) to fight. And the only solution to that is to blue ball them and ship spin or go play another game.

We say that this change will help large groups that can support rolling with caps, but here is the thing every corp has a bad TZ but few corps are completely empty in those times. If i want to roll because we have a bad chain in our low TZ i am at just as much risk as a small corp trying to roll. And i cant speak for others but if i don't have a high chance of keeping the dread alive through this endeavor no matter how much thought, preparation, experience and anything else i can to, if it is all up to the fact that CCP decided my ship should die, my solution is going to be to go play another game, because i love when i lose a ship because i was stupid, but losing a ship despite perfect strategy by me is not enjoyable.

CCP have said that they are listening and that they care about the reasons people dislike a change more than the number and Fozzie equated it to ship balancing, here is the thing no one lives in a ship in the same way they lived in an area of space, the backlash is not equatable.

It is getting to the point that i agree with something my CEO said in the closing of the Town Hall, what is the point any more, why do we tell CCP how they are breaking the game, why do we try to make this game good, enjoyable, playable and FUN, when CCP just responds by pretending to listen and then telling us all they are going to do what they want. Well CCP i would like to know what would make you remove this change, what possible response could we give to you other that leaving in droves that would be a good enough reason to remove this change. Because to me it seems like this has come to the point of you making these changes just to spite us.

To close i would like to reiterate something i said before, thank you CCP i have been meaning to catch up on other games, and not being able to safely roll away from a unfightable threat will allow me to do that.

TL;DR CCP is doing massive damage to WH space and then pretending to listen with one hand and then just ignoring everything we say with the excuse its not the number of complaints its the quality of them.
jonnykefka
Adhocracy Incorporated
Adhocracy
#1020 - 2014-08-17 12:03:43 UTC
Well this is going to make everything in w-space tedious and make combat as we know it a jumbled mess. I'm going to let my sub run out after the patch, it's not worth my limited playtime to deal with this.