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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] Mass-Based Spawn Distance After WH Jumps

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Nightingale Actault
Borderland Dynamics
#681 - 2014-08-08 17:01:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Nightingale Actault
The brawling meta is here as a result of the physical size and spawn distance of wormholes. You want to increase the variety of ships that can be used without breaking the mechanics wormholers already understand, you simply increase the physical size of wormholes. If you had a 15km wormhole, with current spawn mechanics you could still end up nearly 25km away from someone who jumped through the same wormhole. Get a bad spawn within 10k of your opponent? Take the risk of polarizing yourself to see if you get a better spawn distance and opportunity for a more favorable engagement.

This option also handles the "catch cloaky scouts" problem you've introduced with your proposed solution.

As for capital ships and the choice of committing them, you then have to decide to risk spawning outside of refit range if you want to commit multiple capitals to the battle.

Even warping to a wormhole from different positions in a system could land you on the opposite side of the hole from someone else, there's your variety and randomness right there...
Rei Moon
Perkone
Caldari State
#682 - 2014-08-08 17:05:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Rei Moon
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
FleetAdmiralHarper wrote:
why hasnt CCP fozzie been fired yet? everyone in the community hates him..

how come the management is so blind and cant see that he is the cancer eating the game away from the inside??

this is an AWFUL change as is every other change he has made.
myself and several other friends have unsubed. wormholes were the last chunk of the game that hadnt been killed by fozzie, and now they are dead too.. rip eve.


changing system effects is bad...but this is the worst idea in eve update history...

if you want to do something to wormholes. add Moon mining, nothing fancy just low sec level moons, more statics and wonderings, and add 1 cube of each type of low sec ice to each of the wh grav belts.. that way people still need to come out to high or null and get isotopic ice, and trade goods.
the people would love you for that. but no fozzie, you want 95% of the wormhole community to rage quit the game, and you want people to unsub. so wish granted.

no one likes this. no one asked for this. i cant believe youre gonna push it out anyway XD ha ha bad dev is bad.


I have said it before, will say it again.
Null sec cartels can't control wh income ingame, so they get the dev's to wreck it.
You think this is bad? Wait until you see the nerfs to T3 ships, wiping out the market for them, killing wh income even further.


How come so many wormholers can't see how many of these changes benefit nullblocks?
I agree with you. Most changes will shut small corps, since many things inherently tied to wspace, such as rolling and system control, will need more numbers. It will get annoying for large corps, but nigh impossible for the small ones. Who has the numbers to jump frig holes?

Down the pole podcast "Annhhh"
Rei Moon
Perkone
Caldari State
#683 - 2014-08-08 17:16:55 UTC
Chicken Exroofer wrote:
Since CCP appears to be actually following this thread.............


We live in a c3/low static. Have for years. The collective changes proposed for wormholes will have this result for us.


1) We will be less active in the hole, except for cloaked alts keeping an eye on traffic. Provides LESS content for others.

2) We will increase the number of PI alts we have, they log on for 15 minutes every 4 days. LESS content for others.
If a no implant alt in a hauler gets blown up once in a while by frig roams, we won't care.

3) We will run sleeper sites only under very specific conditions, meaning few cross holes to watch. LESS content for others.
We will never jump though connections to other wormholes if it means the K162 won't open on their side. LESS content.

4) We will probably never mine, ever, something we do now fairly regularly. LESS content for others.

5) Under current conditions, we balance risk vs. reward. Every so often we get blown up, once in a while blow someone else up.
Under new conditions, the risk vs reward means we will take less risks, LESS content for us/others.

6) Under incoming conditions, our hisec mission runners will probably train up to incursion runners. And provide LESS content for others.

7) Even a carebear at heart like me gets tired of shooting red crosses. Eventually this will result in 4 lost accounts for CCP.
Sooner rather than later if this type of silliness continues. LESS content for others.



A large portion of this thread espouses the viewpoints of higher class wh dwellers. They make many valid points.
Now you propose to scatter their rolling/pvp fleet all over space when they enter my wormhole. If what I see on my scout makes me think we can engage successfully, we will. Wait, doesn't that create more content? No, it doesn't, because under your proposed changes, as they have stated, they only need to not jump through, and the K162 won't spawn on my side.

LESS content. More hassle. Less players who already have a lot of things to deal with in wormhole life. Less Eve players.

LESS content.


Of all the things that are just silly, last patch, (taxing my own facilities by an npc entity for research/industry in the wh? Really?)
and now more changes which will generate LESS content, not more, you couldn't come up with something better?



*No none of you can haz my stuff!


I loved your post
you're so cute
I can't plaswan it enough
<3

Down the pole podcast "Annhhh"
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#684 - 2014-08-08 18:26:41 UTC
Mithandra wrote:
I do agree that this will probably benefit the larger corporations as opposed to the mom and pop one stop shops we see sprouting up all the time. So? It's EvE , not the women's institute. Adapt.


Just in case anyone was wondering why EVE is 96% male.

You do realize that the whole appeal of WH space is that its friendly to the little guy? If I wanted to live in nullsec, I would already be living there.

If this goes live, sure, people will adapt and there will likely be a significant shift in the WH meta, which will add a great deal more turnover to a part of the game that already has a very high rate of turnover. But this is a thread discussing a proposed change, so all you're doing here is playing internet hardman.

If CCP really wants to introduce chaos, have all ships spawn randomly 0-40km from the WH, or introduce a random element to WH mass so that you can't ever be 100% positive about what will close the hole. I'm not saying those would be good changes, but they would at least be a PITA for everyone.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Christopher Mabata
Northern Accounts and Systems
#685 - 2014-08-08 18:36:12 UTC
You can seperate this change into 2 schools of thought from the opposition.

1. " Now i dont have as much warning when someone is coming to my Wormhole so theres more Risk for the same amount of ISK"

and

2. " Only big WH groups will remain because now rolling holes will be too tedious"

My thoughts on this are simple. Wormhole corps and denizens make ISK hand over Fist especially in the higher end categories these changes will bring about more PVP yes, no doubting that. But whether its actual fights or simply warping on top of someone and violence'ing their space ship till it dies doesnt matter, either way its PVP and content. So wormhole corps simply have to abide by the fact things will be more difficult now, and thats a good thing, recent changes have made low and null, even high sec a bit more difficult so why shouldn't Wormholes be a bit harder?

Stop crying about it and do something productive with it, nano battleships are still viable for hole rolling your going to land close enough that your back to the hole in no time. Same goes for HICTORS running the WDFG with plates on. Sure rolling the hole with a dread is tedious now, but you could always bump the dread to the hole with a 100mn cruiser, i bet thats faster than warping it off and back too!

People dont like change when it adds risk without increasing rewards, these people want more ISK to be "Convinced to stay" well heres the cold hard truth, if your not willing to put in the effort to make your living you dont deserve it, wh space will be no better or worse with you there if you have these attitudes.

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

This Message Brought to you by a sweet and sour bittervet
J0HN SHEPPARD
The Icarus Expedition
Solyaris Chtonium
#686 - 2014-08-08 18:40:21 UTC
bongpacks wrote:
I've been living in a C2 wormhole since 2010 and I just can't get behind this mass based spawn distance...thing. I'm in a small corp of only three active players with one having an alt so you could say four pilots altogether. It's already a chore for us to roll for a new static and you're trying to make that take even longer AND more dangerous?

Often times I find myself the only player even online in my corp, this is just going to make POS logistics with an orca a huge risk even if I can get someone to log on to watch my back. What of the times when I get K162s from high class holes with HUGE alliances in them? Am I supposed to just log off or maybe you want me to go into K-Space and waste tons of time for minimal reward. You already killed solo griefing in highsec which was basically the only fun thing I found to do in K-space besides collecting corpses.

I like the majority of the changes proposed for the new release, but I feel that the MBSD and the frigate holes are just geared towards the huge already established wormhole entities. Really what small corp is going to field a frigate fleet into a hostile wormhole? I'll probably be called out for not looking at this from all angles or even whining/entitlement ect. but the change isn't going to be good for small corps like my own. The only plus side I can think of would be if I dedicated myself to camping my statics all day long as it would be easier to catch the occasional trespasser but that's just as boring as mining imho.

The ideas for deployables that can collapse wormholes I like, would give players like me that often find themselves playing during their corporations off times an option for rolling holes that doesn't involve an hour of smashing at it with a BS or quite carelessly warping around solo with an orca. I think the align time alone for these large ships is risk enough, so what if they can just jump right back through, not like they're going to insta-warp away once they hit the other side.

I have no experience with W-space capital warfare so I can't comment on that. No, just no.



Amen brother! I am in the same boat!! its already a hideous task and very damn risky no need to make it a hell of a lot more dangerous!
I cant stomach the second static in my home cause I can afford to run another scout client in the background with volume turned way up! but risking more of my ships Orcas and battleships just for the sake of change HECK NO!!

I accept all other changes but this one the only way to make it work is by having a big corp with a lot of escort!

CCP I LOVE YOUR GAME and pretty much didn't say a word about all the changes that were made over the past years! but when u come in and RUIN my way of playing and enjoying the game just for the sake of change...THEN HECK NO I am gonna oppose and speak out!

YOU ARE KILLING SMALL CORPS/GROUPS and pretty much KICKING THEM OUT OF WSpace that they made home and adapted too for a long time now!
Maxx S
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#687 - 2014-08-08 18:41:26 UTC
Quote:



This would provide MORE content. Love the screaming goat part!

If no one is home on the other side, no change. If a pvp gang is online and paying any kind of attention, they now have something and someone to shoot at, since they know someone put the thing up. MORE content.
We can set up to defend the module. MORE content.
The folks on the other side can choose to 1) do a fast scout in something pretty much uncatchable, (inty)
2) Choose to pour a combat fleet through, and smash us like bugs. MORE content.
3) Choose to allow the hole to collapse, creating the opportunity for another one to pop up. MORE content.



" This idea would help to maximize the ability of the existing WH dwellers to create content while helping to curb the abuses of rage-rolling and encourage more players to try out the C1's and C2's."


MOAR CONTENT!


Who needs more content? Why should ALL be prone on PvP, some just DON't want to.

And beside being a member of a HS NPC corp the WH space is (in the moment) the only left area in here.

This will be gone, and for what good? to (again!) enjoy more PvP's... are they the only CCP takes care of???
Christopher Mabata
Northern Accounts and Systems
#688 - 2014-08-08 18:48:08 UTC
Maxx S wrote:
Quote:



This would provide MORE content. Love the screaming goat part!

If no one is home on the other side, no change. If a pvp gang is online and paying any kind of attention, they now have something and someone to shoot at, since they know someone put the thing up. MORE content.
We can set up to defend the module. MORE content.
The folks on the other side can choose to 1) do a fast scout in something pretty much uncatchable, (inty)
2) Choose to pour a combat fleet through, and smash us like bugs. MORE content.
3) Choose to allow the hole to collapse, creating the opportunity for another one to pop up. MORE content.



" This idea would help to maximize the ability of the existing WH dwellers to create content while helping to curb the abuses of rage-rolling and encourage more players to try out the C1's and C2's."


MOAR CONTENT!


Who needs more content? Why should ALL be prone on PvP, some just DON't want to.

And beside being a member of a HS NPC corp the WH space is (in the moment) the only left area in here.

This will be gone, and for what good? to (again!) enjoy more PvP's... are they the only CCP takes care of???


There is not a single thing in eve that can't be considered PVP except doing absolutely nothing

Missions are PVP because your competing with other players for the value of the LP and the Price of the loot
PVP is PVP because reasons
Ratting is PVP because other players could be getting the good spawns you want
Market is PVP because everyone sells things

SO yes in a not so loose sense of the word CCP does only take care of PVP, i dont see the point of advertising a game or providing content for people who would do nothing but log in and walk away from the computer and pay 15 a month to do so

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

This Message Brought to you by a sweet and sour bittervet
Maxx S
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#689 - 2014-08-08 18:56:12 UTC
J0HN SHEPPARD wrote:
bongpacks wrote:
I've been living in a C2 wormhole since 2010 and I just can't get behind this mass based spawn distance...thing. I'm in a small corp of only three active players with one having an alt so you could say four pilots altogether. It's already a chore for us to roll for a new static and you're trying to make that take even longer AND more dangerous?

Often times I find myself the only player even online in my corp, this is just going to make POS logistics with an orca a huge risk even if I can get someone to log on to watch my back. What of the times when I get K162s from high class holes with HUGE alliances in them? Am I supposed to just log off or maybe you want me to go into K-Space and waste tons of time for minimal reward. You already killed solo griefing in highsec which was basically the only fun thing I found to do in K-space besides collecting corpses.

I like the majority of the changes proposed for the new release, but I feel that the MBSD and the frigate holes are just geared towards the huge already established wormhole entities. Really what small corp is going to field a frigate fleet into a hostile wormhole? I'll probably be called out for not looking at this from all angles or even whining/entitlement ect. but the change isn't going to be good for small corps like my own. The only plus side I can think of would be if I dedicated myself to camping my statics all day long as it would be easier to catch the occasional trespasser but that's just as boring as mining imho.

The ideas for deployables that can collapse wormholes I like, would give players like me that often find themselves playing during their corporations off times an option for rolling holes that doesn't involve an hour of smashing at it with a BS or quite carelessly warping around solo with an orca. I think the align time alone for these large ships is risk enough, so what if they can just jump right back through, not like they're going to insta-warp away once they hit the other side.

I have no experience with W-space capital warfare so I can't comment on that. No, just no.



Amen brother! I am in the same boat!! its already a hideous task and very damn risky no need to make it a hell of a lot more dangerous!
I cant stomach the second static in my home cause I can afford to run another scout client in the background with volume turned way up! but risking more of my ships Orcas and battleships just for the sake of change HECK NO!!

I accept all other changes but this one the only way to make it work is by having a big corp with a lot of escort!

CCP I LOVE YOUR GAME and pretty much didn't say a word about all the changes that were made over the past years! but when u come in and RUIN my way of playing and enjoying the game just for the sake of change...THEN HECK NO I am gonna oppose and speak out!

YOU ARE KILLING SMALL CORPS/GROUPS and pretty much KICKING THEM OUT OF WSpace that they made home and adapted too for a long time now!



100 % agree

after almost 10 years in EVE I feel sick to rethink every few months the direction of how to make this game still fun me.

It si just annoying how less CCP really cares
Christopher Mabata
Northern Accounts and Systems
#690 - 2014-08-08 18:58:44 UTC
Maxx S wrote:
J0HN SHEPPARD wrote:
bongpacks wrote:
I've been living in a C2 wormhole since 2010 and I just can't get behind this mass based spawn distance...thing. I'm in a small corp of only three active players with one having an alt so you could say four pilots altogether. It's already a chore for us to roll for a new static and you're trying to make that take even longer AND more dangerous?

Often times I find myself the only player even online in my corp, this is just going to make POS logistics with an orca a huge risk even if I can get someone to log on to watch my back. What of the times when I get K162s from high class holes with HUGE alliances in them? Am I supposed to just log off or maybe you want me to go into K-Space and waste tons of time for minimal reward. You already killed solo griefing in highsec which was basically the only fun thing I found to do in K-space besides collecting corpses.

I like the majority of the changes proposed for the new release, but I feel that the MBSD and the frigate holes are just geared towards the huge already established wormhole entities. Really what small corp is going to field a frigate fleet into a hostile wormhole? I'll probably be called out for not looking at this from all angles or even whining/entitlement ect. but the change isn't going to be good for small corps like my own. The only plus side I can think of would be if I dedicated myself to camping my statics all day long as it would be easier to catch the occasional trespasser but that's just as boring as mining imho.

The ideas for deployables that can collapse wormholes I like, would give players like me that often find themselves playing during their corporations off times an option for rolling holes that doesn't involve an hour of smashing at it with a BS or quite carelessly warping around solo with an orca. I think the align time alone for these large ships is risk enough, so what if they can just jump right back through, not like they're going to insta-warp away once they hit the other side.

I have no experience with W-space capital warfare so I can't comment on that. No, just no.



Amen brother! I am in the same boat!! its already a hideous task and very damn risky no need to make it a hell of a lot more dangerous!
I cant stomach the second static in my home cause I can afford to run another scout client in the background with volume turned way up! but risking more of my ships Orcas and battleships just for the sake of change HECK NO!!

I accept all other changes but this one the only way to make it work is by having a big corp with a lot of escort!

CCP I LOVE YOUR GAME and pretty much didn't say a word about all the changes that were made over the past years! but when u come in and RUIN my way of playing and enjoying the game just for the sake of change...THEN HECK NO I am gonna oppose and speak out!

YOU ARE KILLING SMALL CORPS/GROUPS and pretty much KICKING THEM OUT OF WSpace that they made home and adapted too for a long time now!



100 % agree

after almost 10 years in EVE I feel sick to rethink every few months the direction of how to make this game still fun me.

It si just annoying how less CCP really cares



Variety is the spice of life
Dont do one thing, do all the things

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

This Message Brought to you by a sweet and sour bittervet
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#691 - 2014-08-08 19:06:07 UTC
How many pages and no response from Fozzie other than his "yeah we're going through with this" at the beginning of the thread?
Chicken Exroofer
Regional Assault and Recon
#692 - 2014-08-08 19:18:00 UTC
Maxx S wrote:
Quote:



This would provide MORE content. Love the screaming goat part!

If no one is home on the other side, no change. If a pvp gang is online and paying any kind of attention, they now have something and someone to shoot at, since they know someone put the thing up. MORE content.
We can set up to defend the module. MORE content.
The folks on the other side can choose to 1) do a fast scout in something pretty much uncatchable, (inty)
2) Choose to pour a combat fleet through, and smash us like bugs. MORE content.
3) Choose to allow the hole to collapse, creating the opportunity for another one to pop up. MORE content.



" This idea would help to maximize the ability of the existing WH dwellers to create content while helping to curb the abuses of rage-rolling and encourage more players to try out the C1's and C2's."


MOAR CONTENT!


Who needs more content? Why should ALL be prone on PvP, some just DON't want to.

And beside being a member of a HS NPC corp the WH space is (in the moment) the only left area in here.

This will be gone, and for what good? to (again!) enjoy more PvP's... are they the only CCP takes care of???



Actually I think that the above would provide more "consensual" pvp, and opportunity for "safety" (safety in the wormhole, lol )
for those who need/want it. As I understand the other fellow's post, basically you would be hanging out a sign on the other side of the wormhole saying " HI!, we are on and active, either come get some, or let us collapse the hole"

Let us say you would rather they did not come on through in force. So when your cloaky eyes on the situation, see overwhelming numbers, you do not engage. Most pvp'ers pretty much never engage without a garanteed win. Yes I know that is not always true, but often enough to make the statement.

I do not want WH space to be "safe" I would, however, like to at least even the odds so both sides have a chance.

Pretty much all of these proposed changes are heavily in favour of the attacker, when taken cumulatively.
Anything that favours one side is not balanced.
If I didn't want to take the chance of being blown out of the sky, I would sit in Jita on a station trading alt, and never undock, not live in a wormhole.
But at least give us a fighting chance. Unless these cumulative changes really are designed to cater to the wants of your largest playerbase at the expense of one of the smaller ones. Non collapsable frig/dessie/HIC holes from Nul to wormholes that do not appear as a K162 until someone ( or the entire frigswarm) jumps through. Scattering hole rolling ships out of jump back range. Gee, I wonder who would favour that? Because it certainly isn't the folks who currently occupy wormhole space.
Ned Black
Driders
#693 - 2014-08-08 19:26:14 UTC
Christopher Mabata wrote:
You can seperate this change into 2 schools of thought from the opposition.

1. " Now i dont have as much warning when someone is coming to my Wormhole so theres more Risk for the same amount of ISK"

and

2. " Only big WH groups will remain because now rolling holes will be too tedious"

My thoughts on this are simple. Wormhole corps and denizens make ISK hand over Fist especially in the higher end categories these changes will bring about more PVP yes, no doubting that. But whether its actual fights or simply warping on top of someone and violence'ing their space ship till it dies doesnt matter, either way its PVP and content. So wormhole corps simply have to abide by the fact things will be more difficult now, and thats a good thing, recent changes have made low and null, even high sec a bit more difficult so why shouldn't Wormholes be a bit harder?

Stop crying about it and do something productive with it, nano battleships are still viable for hole rolling your going to land close enough that your back to the hole in no time. Same goes for HICTORS running the WDFG with plates on. Sure rolling the hole with a dread is tedious now, but you could always bump the dread to the hole with a 100mn cruiser, i bet thats faster than warping it off and back too!

People dont like change when it adds risk without increasing rewards, these people want more ISK to be "Convinced to stay" well heres the cold hard truth, if your not willing to put in the effort to make your living you dont deserve it, wh space will be no better or worse with you there if you have these attitudes.


No, people dont like changes that turns something that normally takes 2-3 minutes to complete into something that suddenly takes 8-10 minutes to complete.

To someone like you who have never chain rolled a hole for hours on end to find either a good PvE or PvP hole this means nothing, to someone who have been there the difference is staggering.

Just imaging the outcry if this change was ever ported to cyno mechanics.

Today you can pop a cyno outside a station, jump a JF/Carrier and instantly dock up... Safe as a babe in swaddling... with these changes those ships could end up 20km from station... while that surely would make things interresting it would still make nullsec logistics a nightmare not to mention how interresting all those super fights would be with supers landing 100km from each other.

Why not make that happen... oh, who was risk adverse did you say?
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#694 - 2014-08-08 19:31:36 UTC
Great changes, thank you.

The Tears Must Flow
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#695 - 2014-08-08 19:34:21 UTC
So many carebear tears. I love this thread.

The Tears Must Flow
Sheeana Harb
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#696 - 2014-08-08 20:16:28 UTC
I support this change and am looking forward to it being implemented. Afterall, stargates have similar mechanic and we got used to it, didn't we.
Ruffio Sepico
Hidden Agenda
Deep Space Engineering
#697 - 2014-08-08 20:30:46 UTC
Sheeana Harb wrote:
I support this change and am looking forward to it being implemented. Afterall, stargates have similar mechanic and we got used to it, didn't we.


Then all we need is for capital ships to start use gates and not cynos right? Or at least bounce 40k off a cyno, and we be on equal footing.
Witchway
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#698 - 2014-08-08 20:50:26 UTC
Ruffio Sepico wrote:
Sheeana Harb wrote:
I support this change and am looking forward to it being implemented. Afterall, stargates have similar mechanic and we got used to it, didn't we.


Then all we need is for capital ships to start use gates and not cynos right? Or at least bounce 40k off a cyno, and we be on equal footing.




Or how about every two hours or so the gates switch where they send you? Maybe you go to jita, maybe you go to amamake... roll the dice!

Official Shit Talking Captain, Bastard of Hard Knocks Inc.
Rei Moon
Perkone
Caldari State
#699 - 2014-08-08 20:54:17 UTC
Ermagerrd there come the oligofrenic nullseccers

learn 2 post

it's the wh subforum here

not TMC

Down the pole podcast "Annhhh"
Rei Moon
Perkone
Caldari State
#700 - 2014-08-08 20:57:29 UTC
Witchway wrote:
Ruffio Sepico wrote:
Sheeana Harb wrote:
I support this change and am looking forward to it being implemented. Afterall, stargates have similar mechanic and we got used to it, didn't we.


Then all we need is for capital ships to start use gates and not cynos right? Or at least bounce 40k off a cyno, and we be on equal footing.




Or how about every two hours or so the gates switch where they send you? Maybe you go to jita, maybe you go to amamake... roll the dice!


Yeah wspace and kspace are the same thing
let's probe stargates and make a localectomy

》insert Bert's trip here 《

Down the pole podcast "Annhhh"