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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] K162 Signatures Appearing on First Jump

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Zmikund
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2014-08-06 16:36:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Zmikund
Hi ... this idea is much better from logical POV but much worse from gameplay POV compared to current settings
Logical: well ... where is logic in opening exit wormhole when someone initializes warp to entrance ...
Gameplay: Change like this will only make gap between wolves and sheeps bigger ... situation as it is now is pretty much like this ... PvP fleet rolling wormholes catch PvE fleet farming anomalies and it ends up as slaughter of PvE-ers because they mostly cant react fast enough to get into safety, not to mention to get ready for some deffense ... this scheme is 90% of wormhole pvp and i dont think this is that famous EVE pvp everyone glorifies so much ... this change will not make situation better, it will make it much worse, because deffending fleet will have even less time to do anything.

IMHO best solution for this would be opening both ends of wormhole at same time no matter probers, jump or anything else ... wormhole will simply spawn both ends of itself at same time ...
From logical POV is this best and pretty much only solution possible ...
As from gameplay POV is this also much better than current or your proposed wormhole spawning ... attackers will still be in advantage because they will have fleet and probers ready to hunt and defenders will have enough time to prepare themself for defence or escape ... in any of theese cases it will make wormhole pvp much better ... killing defenceless farmers is not fun at all and if they will decide to deffend themself with pvp fleet it will be lot of fun for both sides and players will get pvp they want ...
Lux Libertine
AEGIS Contest Corporation
#42 - 2014-08-06 16:37:12 UTC
i see only plus side from this and that you close all other WHs when your static is in life time and when you are done and static closes you just find him and undisturbingly farm until someone one K162 to your system.

Negative - you will lose a lot K-space to higher class WHs connections meaing losing conectivity even between higher lower WHs - it is WH to c4/c5/c6 or null well i wont be jumping because i dont need any company. Same as ppl scanning from k-space wont be bothered to jump there if it is not their preference.....
Second thing is spamming probe scanner button every less then 5s for more than hours... so can warp off ASAP.... but still if is somebody wants some pew they will bring whole fleet to their end of hole asap... you are just reducing the time to cancel target WH op by 20 or less seconds.. if ppl have drop gang ready they will get you if you want or not...

This is mostly reducing conetivity of WHs... if you have dual static you will close them farm WH then open just one of them then closing moving to second one.... Please just scrap this whole idea....
Ang Min
CPD Adventures Pte. Ltd.
#43 - 2014-08-06 16:46:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Ang Min
Phoenix Jones wrote:
Kadm wrote:
Necharo Rackham wrote:
There will be far fewer incoming connections from k-space, as more people will warp the wormhole, look at what space is on the other side, and choose not to jump through.

This will reduce the connectedness of w-space more generally.


This is the only thing I'd worry about. W-space will become much less interconnected with this.


I have to agree with this.

I get what you are going for. You want to keep the discovery scanner up and you don't want to go back to the old system.

This is just patchwork trying to hobble that system together so its viable in wormhole space.
.... it is not.

1) Set it so that when a new wormhole appears, it spawns on both sides.
2) Don't show wormholes on the discovery scanner at all (make people probe out the system to find them).

You get more setup, more interaction, more varied gameplay. The old system worked for a reason.

You are not going to get people to give up on it.


I agree 100%, and would add that it's all these phony kluges that drain the realism from what, since 2007, had been my favorite space simulator. Sure, I know it's a game and a certain amount of fakeness is required to achieve balanced gameplay. But come on - to say that a wormhole can be seen by people on one end but not by anyone at the other end (until someone jumps through) is ridiculous, and requires a level of suspension of disbelief that I just can't stomach. AND it's not even fair gameplay some more!

In fact, I've just read all of the planned W-space changes for the Hyperion release, and as a continuous w-space dweller for the past 5 years (since Apoc), I have to say there's nothing at all in the list that excites me or makes me want to stay in w-space. Where's the new content, such as more challenging Sleepers which can attack anywhere in system? More varied and interesting radar/mag (sorry - "relic/data") sites? Or game changing additions such as ice belts and moon mining in w-space? Or new modules that let you influence the mass limits or lifetime of a wormhole? There are just a ton of things that could be done to spruce up w-space, without wrecking what has worked very well for the past 5 years, as the current proposals will certainly do.

:-(
jonnykefka
Adhocracy Incorporated
Adhocracy
#44 - 2014-08-06 16:55:13 UTC
Kadm wrote:
Necharo Rackham wrote:
There will be far fewer incoming connections from k-space, as more people will warp the wormhole, look at what space is on the other side, and choose not to jump through.

This will reduce the connectedness of w-space more generally.


This is the only thing I'd worry about. W-space will become much less interconnected with this.


This is my main concern as well. I like the proposal people have made for a long timer for the K162 as a "backup" to keep the interconnectedness. An hour, for example, would be perfect. If nobody jumps through for an hour after someone initiates warp to grid on the "origin" side, the K162 spawns. That way, we keep our nice little web of connections as it is now, and the "surprise factor" is still relevant for people actively looking for trouble.
Bleedingthrough
#45 - 2014-08-06 16:55:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Bleedingthrough
This has some drawbacks:

- It gives the attacker an unfair advantage. They have all time they want to get a fleet ready and essentially more time then the delay on K162 that was suggested in this other thread.

- it makes collapsing in BS trivial if you only have enough ships. Hint: Small corps don#t have 10 BS pilots.

- it reduces the amount of K162s from k-space.

I would prefer if K162s would instantly spawn on the other side. This is a way better way to make rolling more dangerous as it already is.

Besides making rolling more dangerous is not needed. We take risks every time we roll into a hostile group. There really is no need for increasing it. Getting ganked while roling is not the PvP I am interested in.
Verran Skarne
4 Marketeers
#46 - 2014-08-06 16:57:17 UTC
Ang Min wrote:


In fact, I've just read all of the planned W-space changes for the Hyperion release, and as a continuous w-space dweller for the past 5 years (since Apoc), I have to say there's nothing at all in the list that excites me or makes me want to stay in w-space. Where's the new content, such as more challenging Sleepers which can attack anywhere in system? More varied and interesting radar/mag (sorry - "relic/data") sites? Or game changing additions such as ice belts and moon mining in w-space? Or new modules that let you influence the mass limits or lifetime of a wormhole? There are just a ton of things that could be done to spruce up w-space, without wrecking what has worked very well for the past 5 years, as the current proposals will certainly do.

:-(


We'd build a station in our home wormhole if the game would let us. Just because it would be awesome. And yes, that means accepting *all* the risk that that comes with doing that :)

So while I don't mind some of these changes, I really would love to see either more content, or more ability for wormhole dwellers to really "own" their systems, just like nullsec.
Fireflynine
Wormhole Exploration And Production
#47 - 2014-08-06 16:57:34 UTC
sensor overlay---- get rid of it i had more action i feel before you added it
Simsung Padecain
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2014-08-06 17:14:31 UTC
Necharo Rackham wrote:
There will be far fewer incoming connections from k-space, as more people will warp the wormhole, look at what space is on the other side, and choose not to jump through.

This will reduce the connectedness of w-space more generally.

This concerns me greatly, as up to this point Hard Knocks used to roam out to nullsec and hunt unsuspecting players.
With this change there will be very, very little Nullsec connections to base out of, as some players have already commited themselves not to "open" wormholes in their systems etc.

Data/Relic sites hunters wont bother jumping through holes, because there's no incentive to.
Could be balanced by adding something for solo players daytripping to WH space.
Vixel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#49 - 2014-08-06 17:18:40 UTC
I may be remembering wrong but I don't think this will have the negative impact on connectedness that people are concerned about. They did state that the wormhole itself would not be scannable or visible on the K162 side until someone jumps through, but did they not also state that they were going to be adding smaller WH's (you can put a scout in, potentially find another route to K-Space that connects back to your own hole, etc.) and will also be adding more randomly spawning WH's in WH space? Like I said, I may be remembering wrong (don't have the blog in front of me to reference)

LVXE
Dama Arishe
Mr. Lee's Greater Hong Kong
#50 - 2014-08-06 17:20:19 UTC
Not a huge fan of the K162 change. I'd love to know what % of wormholes actually get jumped through (from the spawn system). Would that make this change make sense? I dunno. It's going to make kspace to wspace K162s a lot rarer I think.
AssassinationsdoneWrong
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#51 - 2014-08-06 17:26:06 UTC
Xaldafax Caerleon wrote:
silly string

Do you have any idea on the potential server load of simultaneously spawning, linking and loading every single k-w, w-k and w-w space connection?

We fly fictional space ships because we don't have real ones yet. We grid WHs because it saves server computation and space too.

Try tempering what you ask for with what is possible.

The Nexus 7's

What we fall short of in numbers we more than make up for in stupidity
DarkVane1
Creators Commune
#52 - 2014-08-06 17:41:25 UTC
I think the general consensus is to have a timer on it. If you leave it off you favor the source, let's say that a wh pops then the source can wait an unchecked number of hours to get a perfect wh assault fleet, leaving the destination seriously disadvantaged. With a timer, at least they have some warning to close it. I would say 30 minutes is a decent number.
Cedeves XVII
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#53 - 2014-08-06 17:44:41 UTC
This change is good and i would welcome the current implementation. However i would like to see some timer that spawns the k162 at some point after someone warps to it even if they dont jump through. This timer could well be an hour or some other time that CCP sees fit (hopefully quite large ie >30 min). This is just to fix the potential risk that others have pointed out of W-space becoming less connected.
Valencia Mariana
Eagle and Lion Corporate Agents
#54 - 2014-08-06 17:49:33 UTC
Please don't gimp our ability to roam nullsec Pirate

Add a timer, or something just make sure those K162 actually appear at some point !! By solving the problem of early warning ganks you are creating another problem here.

Valencia Mariana The Red Circle Inc.
Moe Lesture
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#55 - 2014-08-06 17:59:45 UTC
Almost 100% of what I do is roam nullsec out of wormholes. I fear that these wormholes will no longer exist to nullsec (as much) because the scanners from nullsec will no longer jump through to trigger the k162.

Right now they warp to them out of curiosity "is this a highsec to jita?" which spawns the K162.

After the change "Oh i landed and showed info, its not to highsec so no need to jump" and trigger the k162.

Could we perhaps offer a DELAY in the k162 appearing? Say 5-10 minutes after being warped to? This would allow gangs to form on the hole and still allow connections to exist to nullsec.

sig here
Qalix
Long Jump.
#56 - 2014-08-06 18:01:07 UTC
I always looked at the spawning of the K162 even if you didn't jump through it as the consequence of an action.

In a nosec system, you see a sig, scan it, reveal that it is a WH. Now you have to decide: do I warp to it or not? If I do and it's a K162, no harm, no foul. The door was already open. However, if it isn't a K162, I just opened the door to a potentially hostile system. I could go from being in the middle of nowhere to having an active C5/C6 and a 20 man T3 gang next door.

If people can warp to the sig, see where it goes, and opt not to jump, then the only way any access is opened into the target system AND the origin system is if someone scans down an entrance to it AND enters it. In effect, the WH residents get most of the benefits of being able to close the hole under current mechanics, without actually having to close the hole. That also renders the changes to ship spawn distances somewhat moot.

If the primary concern is pre-warning by the appearance of the sig in the scanner, then that should be the focus of the change. Just suppress its appearance for X amount of time. It should definitely be visible to probes.
Xaldafax Caerleon
Veritas Theory
#57 - 2014-08-06 18:08:56 UTC
AssassinationsdoneWrong wrote:
Xaldafax Caerleon wrote:
silly string

Do you have any idea on the potential server load of simultaneously spawning, linking and loading every single k-w, w-k and w-w space connection?

We fly fictional space ships because we don't have real ones yet. We grid WHs because it saves server computation and space too.

Try tempering what you ask for with what is possible.



I think you took my comment too literal. Basically the connection needs to be there on both sides and obvious to people. There should be no way for WH to stay hidden. That is all I mean.... Just like in normal space we see the connections and can use them.

How this happens doesn't matter to me as long as the connections are available and not hidden or keeping people from hiding in WHs.
Keith Planck
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#58 - 2014-08-06 18:14:14 UTC
This is perfect, I love it. It is a well designed fix.

It gives players slightly more time for ganks but still doesn't unbalance it.

+1 would expand again

♞
Enselon
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2014-08-06 18:15:08 UTC
current system - on warp to, k162 becomes visible.
--my proposal:
on warp, start timer. (random timer, some arbitrary minimum time, to some maximum time before spawning on the other side)
IF jump comes first, ignore timer and generate K162.
IF NO jump, once the timer expires, generate K162.

source keeps advantage, as (apparently) preferred by most every post I've seen.
destination still gets it's K162 connection, solving the "connectivity will suffer" complaint.
Billius Zabub
Beelzebub Corp
#60 - 2014-08-06 18:18:42 UTC
Kadm wrote:

1) Set it so that when a new wormhole appears, it spawns on both sides.

This makes the most sense to me.

I'd say just get rid of the idea of an "exit". Wormhole are not directional, they go both ways. Neither side is an exit or entrance.

The k162 code always seemed odd to me. Was it added intentionally to obscure what's on the other side? The other codes all identify the kind of system on the other side. It seems more consistent and better to just always use the more descriptive codes (e.g. A641 leads to hi-sec, Z971 leads to a class 1, etc.) Get rid of k162 and the idea of an "exit".

I don't love the idea of the timer. It's better to simplify. EVE has too many little rules and exceptions that contribute to the learning curve (and likely turn off a lot of newer players).

But, I'm not a wh player. So, maybe I'm missing some of the point here.

I do a fair bit of hi-sec exploration and I will often warp to a wh, especially if it's k162 because I like taking hi-to-hi shortcuts With a k162, I have to check the text on it while in range to see if it say it leads to hi-sec. I will warp to other holes too, just for the heck of it. I didn't realize by warping I was creating an k162 on the other side. That's not intuitive, imho.