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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] K162 Signatures Appearing on First Jump

First post
Villore Accords
#21 - 2014-08-06 15:41:11 UTC
ExookiZ wrote:
I think you should look at timers/ not applying this to K space wormholes. The vast majority of k spaces we find are K162s, and those will stop spawning since K-space residents rarely care about the WH, they see if its a shortcut, maybe goes where they want but rarely ever jump in.

Id hazard a guess that 90% of null--> WH space connections never open after this change, probably even higher.

Wow....I didnt even think of how much of a pain in the arse it is going to be finding high sec and low sec connections.

Absolutely the worst idea.
The Dark Space Initiative
The Initiative.
#22 - 2014-08-06 15:45:40 UTC
Maybe im just nostalgic still, but I still miss jumping a WH and hunting people when they don't even know I am there. This change helps if I dont jump right through the WH when I find it, but if I do it doesnt change anything at all.

Id still love to make them have to scan for new Whs, at least for a little bit. Theyll still see me jump in with their scanners immediately.

Event Organizer of EVE North East

Deep Core Mining Inc.
#23 - 2014-08-06 15:46:47 UTC
I personally think this is not the positive change you think it's going to be.
What you need to understand with the current system is that, once warp is a initiated the warper and Corp/bros are forced to deal with the consequences of that connection and what is on the other side of it.
This actually gives you the emergent game play you keep touting as being needed.

So if an equally or better force with an on the ball scanner is over there the content gets hairy (do we collapse, fight, what do we do?) but no matter what else that connect is now up and somebody is going to have to make the call which will usually end up with exploding ships.
Now look at your proposal. I can scan a new random down, tell what it is, look at my fleet, see who is answering pings, make tea and then decide "Nah, I don't fancy a C5 connect ramification today". Bookmark it, mark the bookmark not to jump to and not have to deal with it at all.
Take this to it's extreme and a farmer can use/abuse it to the nTH level. They warp to all new randoms, mark them not to be jumped at all until that number = 7 minus number of statics (maximum number of possible WH connects in any one system) and voila, a fully 100% guaranteed safe environment controlled 100% by the holding corp with no chance whatsoever of anyone ever being able to connect without them wanting them to.

It's just an opinion and sorry for the WOT but it needed careful explaining and I tried to keep it respectful which I find difficult at the best of times. Shoot down away!

The Nexus 7's

What we fall short of in numbers we more than make up for in stupidity

Orange Aideron
Singularity Surfers
#24 - 2014-08-06 15:50:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Orange Aideron
+1 to K162's to eventually connecting/showing up on the other side. otherwise, w-space is going to get very quiet. rip.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#25 - 2014-08-06 15:55:22 UTC
The timer does need to be in the order of four hours, unless the intention is to deprive residents of any opportunity for keeping their static closed for any useable time.

This change seemed to carefully avoid removing that choice, while balancing things, I do not believe that things like a ten minute timer would achieve that goal in any way.

So should we not suggest resolutions for the possible absence of K162's after this change, rather than try to get the whole choice argument reopened and the improvements lost?

So recommendation:- if not jumped a static hole after four hours becomes a k999 and spawns visible on both sides.
After jumping it returns to it's original designation on the static side and a K162 on the other.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#26 - 2014-08-06 15:56:56 UTC
I also believe there needs to be a timer. I think you underestimate the number of times people will never instantiate the connection especially on the k-space -> w-space side. Heck, you can even make good use of your info pane description of a newly instantiated wormhole and have that description persist up until the timer expires. People would then have a tiny bit of intel about whether or not they instantiated the wormhole and you also have the benefit of the K162s spawning, increasing connectivity between systems.
LT Alter
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2014-08-06 16:06:02 UTC
Would it be possible for it to be made scannable when a ship lands on grid with the wormhole rather than on first jump. The time difference would be very small, but the difference that the people in the parent hole can't just warp to the wormhole and start it's life cycle without ever making it scannable on the other side. I feel that makes things a little bit too safe for wormhole residents in general, even though I am on myself.
Going Critical
#28 - 2014-08-06 16:06:08 UTC
I just realised that this means that N432's from nullsec to C5s will never open up in ratting space. How am I supposed to find plankton?

There needs to be a maximum timer for this: maybe 30-60 minutes at most?
Dead Sky Inc.
#29 - 2014-08-06 16:06:38 UTC
+1 for a timer, might be a lot more work to code. Something between 30 minutes to 2 hours sounds good.
Will also add to the paranoiafactor. "K162 just spawned but I saw noone on our d-scan nor on the other side."
Longinius Spear
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi
#30 - 2014-08-06 16:07:58 UTC
This is a great balance for both farmers and hunters.

+1 approve!

Read more of my ramblings on my blog

Verran Skarne
4 Marketeers
#31 - 2014-08-06 16:12:58 UTC
Better than the original idea by far, but as others have said, this will result in a lot of K162s just never showing up at all, especially nullsec connections.

So, +1 to the idea of having the K162 spawn after a delay is met, or at first jump (whichever comes first). I think 4 hours is too long. 30 minutes seems more reasonable. That's enough time for someone who finds a new wormhole to reship if needed and jump through to go take a look without having a fleet waiting for them on the other sie, but not so much that it means w-space residents will take a big hit on finding connections.
Axloth Okiah
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2014-08-06 16:13:32 UTC
Yes BUT give them short timer (10-20 minutes) after which the K162 side spawns anyway, regardless of being jumped through or even had a warp initiated to. Otherwise we will end up with massive amounts of unspawned holes. It would also fix already existing issue with people leaving their holes unspawned when farming.
Antagonistic Tendencies
#33 - 2014-08-06 16:16:51 UTC
Axloth Okiah wrote:
Yes BUT give them short timer (10-20 minutes) after which the K162 side spawns anyway, regardless of being jumped through or even had a warp initiated to. Otherwise we will end up with massive amounts of unspawned holes. It would also fix already existing issue with people leaving their holes unspawned when farming.

Warping to one should start a timer upon which the k162 side is spawned anyway - but automatically spawning the k162 side does not change the farming aspect as people will just mass down their static and leave it critical and bubbled to farm.
Rolled Out
#34 - 2014-08-06 16:19:05 UTC
I think that this is an attempt to reverse the damage delivered by the discovery scanner. It is a chance to how we've lived/operated and that isn't necessarily a bad thing. However, if the k162 'never' opens the will be a net reduction in k162 connections because people will want to leave them closed (unjumped) for "reasons".

If this is implemented there needs to be a timer component whereby k162 holes are opened after some configurable amount of time. The timeframe of somewhere between 30 minutes and 120 minutes is probably good. You could potentially make THAT timer random between those upper and lower bounds.

I'm right behind you

Super Secret Spaceship Syndicate
#35 - 2014-08-06 16:19:17 UTC
In my optinion this strikes a fair balance between the instant-sig-showing overlay and a hunter's ability to catch prey unsuspecting. Good compromise.

Although I can foresee some shenanigans involving hole timers that start before the K162 is in place.
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
Chao3 Alliance
#36 - 2014-08-06 16:21:34 UTC
I did not like the delayed K162 unless the same was done with local in null sec.
I think the current solution is a great alternative.
+1 from me.

Vote Borat Guereen for CSM XII

Check out the Minarchist Space Project

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#37 - 2014-08-06 16:22:00 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
The reason for suggesting a four hour timer, if un-jumped, is it gives a small window of opportunity to run sites, mine, gas, do Pi and all the other reasons, why a small corp might wish to leave their static closed.
With a very short timer, all their choice to conduct these activities would be removed.

Some may believe that is a desirable goal and some do not. That is an entirely different issue and CCP were avoiding this issue at this time when setting their design for this.

The suggestion of a four hour timer does not challenge this decision, but instead, eliminates an unfortunate side effect.
That is its only goal.
All the K162s will with this eventually spawn, so no loss of K162s and no removal of reasonable choice from the occupants of the statics.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron
The Red Circle Inc.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#38 - 2014-08-06 16:27:52 UTC
A delay would be ok I guess, it's bad for them not to spawn at all. A good number of connections in to W-Space are incoming from K-Space, if this change goes ahead that figure will drop as people in Null scan down a wormhole looking for easy connections to High / Low for logistics, see it's into W-Space and not jump, so those connections won't open.

That would be a bad thing, and doesn't really tie in well with the other changes in Hyperion which seem to be focused on improving WH connectivity.
Xaldafax Caerleon
Veritas Theory
#39 - 2014-08-06 16:29:30 UTC
When I first started playing I joined a corp that moved to a wormhole. I enjoyed it and even though it was supposed to be risky, it wasn't too much considering that all you had to do was know where the wormholes were and spam dscan. You didn't even need to worry about where they went. With enough people in the hole you could spam dscan and usually see the hunter or even put alts on the WH entrances.

What people seem to forget is that in normal space all systems are connected and stay that way. So why should WH space be any different? I can't currently close down a star gate and keep people from coming into my pocket. So WH shouldn't have that.

When a WH connect is spawned it should be visible on both sides immediately. You still need to scan it down to find out where it is and what system it connect to... but that connection should be visible on both sides.

Just like stargates... both systems clearly have the connection. With WH space being the same then the connections are always there and the RISK is increased... just like anyone living in HS, LS, Null now...

I am all for finding some protection for people in WH since there is no local, but I think that should be done outside of "not fully connecting the systems" as they should be.
Shale BloodStone
Death Row inc
Lethal Injection.
#40 - 2014-08-06 16:35:16 UTC
Personally I love the idea I can "lock down" my wormhole and get on with stuff, then if I fancy pvp I can open a static and go look for some fights.