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[Hyperion] Heavy Assault Cruiser tweaks

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C C P Alliance
#1 - 2014-07-29 13:52:19 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
Hi guys

You may or may not have seen me make a post a while back saying that we were intending to do a revisit on battleship and heavy assault cruiser balance for this summer, and I can now be a little more specific with you about that!

After digging into this we were both happy and a bit surprised to find that there weren't a lot of clear changes needed. Battleships especially seem to be in a pretty solid place. There are ships within the class getting less use than others, but that is almost completely due to either the meta favoring certain things (this is why the Abaddon isn't seeing a lot of action for example) or due to the ship falling into a niche that isn't extremely popular even though the ship performs exceptionally in that niche (the Hyperion is a great example of this). So the result is that for now we are going to leave BS alone and keep checking back for opportunities to make improvements.

HACs on the other hand are a slightly different story. In general the class gained a lot of power in the last pass and it's seeing plenty of use across the board, but there are some pretty clear imbalances between certain ships in the class. If you've undocked lately you probably know the Ishtar especially is a little out of control. Here's the small set of changes we're going to make:

Ishtar:
Bonus to drone tracking and optimal range from 7.5% per level -> 5% per level
Max Velocity from 195 -> 185

Eagle:
Max Velocity from 180 -> 190

Muninn:
Max velocity from 210 -> 230

We expect that some of you will feel this is far too gentle on the Ishtar, and we understand that (it's what we heard from the CSM as well), but we get releases very often now and we're happy to be conservative here, rather than nuke it out of the game, and just make more changes if they're needed in the following release.

Looking forward to your feedback as always

PS - how would you feel about an 8/4/7 Tempest?

Note for clarity: Hyperion release date is August 26

@ccp_rise

#2 - 2014-07-29 14:02:07 UTC
8-4-7 tempest .. stronger armour tank over phoon .. might at least position it in a better armour tanker option than phoon and ofc Maelstrom .. seems okay too me .... more mobility aswell..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

#3 - 2014-07-29 14:02:22 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hi guys

You may or may not have seen me make a post a while back saying that we were intending to do a revisit on battleship and heavy assault cruiser balance for this summer, and I can now be a little more specific with you about that!

After digging into this we were both happy and a bit surprised to find that there weren't a lot of clear changes needed. Battleships especially seem to be in a pretty solid place. There are ships within the class getting less use than others, but that is almost completely due to either the meta favoring certain things (this is why the Abaddon isn't seeing a lot of action for example) or due to the ship falling into a niche that isn't extremely popular even though the ship performs exceptionally in that niche (the Hyperion is a great example of this). So the result is that for now we are going to leave BS alone and keep checking back for opportunities to make improvements.

HACs on the other hand are a slightly different story. In general the class gained a lot of power in the last pass and it's seeing plenty of use across the board, but there are some pretty clear imbalances between certain ships in the class. If you've undocked lately you probably know the Ishtar especially is a little out of control. Here's the small set of changes we're going to make:

Ishtar:
Bonus to drone tracking and optimal range from 7.5% per level -> 5% per level
Max Velocity from 195 -> 185

Eagle:
Max Velocity from 180 -> 190

Muninn:
Max velocity from 210 -> 230

We expect that some of you will feel this is far too gentle on the Ishtar, and we understand that (it's what we heard from the CSM as well), but we get releases very often now and we're happy to be conservative here, rather than nuke it out of the game, and just make more changes if they're needed in the following release.

Looking forward to your feedback as always

PS - how would you feel about an 8/4/7 Tempest?


Will still be Ishtar/crow online everyday

Resident forum troll and fashion consultant

Affirmative.
#4 - 2014-07-29 14:04:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Greygal
Is there a timetable for the Ishtar and other HAC changes to go live? I.e., will these changes be going live before, during, or after the Alliance Tournament?

Thanks!

GG

Edit: Nevermind, I misread the title and didn't put 2+2 together that this was for the Hyperion release coming in September lol!! (Thanks Gizznitt for pointing that out!)

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#5 - 2014-07-29 14:04:27 UTC
i expected the ishtar change ... will the domi change aswell then?

Eagle
- i did say in the HAC page it was far too slow .. would be nice at 200 along with some drones .. it has a dronebay now on the model and would allow for blaster variants then instead of only rails ...

Vagabond
- please nerf its speed ... resilience is the theme of HACS remember so why is it just as quick as a stabber and cynabal???

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
#6 - 2014-07-29 14:05:01 UTC
Harpy nerf? No? o-okay
#7 - 2014-07-29 14:05:09 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hi guys

You may or may not have seen me make a post a while back saying that we were intending to do a revisit on battleship and heavy assault cruiser balance for this summer, and I can now be a little more specific with you about that!

After digging into this we were both happy and a bit surprised to find that there weren't a lot of clear changes needed. Battleships especially seem to be in a pretty solid place. There are ships within the class getting less use than others, but that is almost completely due to either the meta favoring certain things (this is why the Abaddon isn't seeing a lot of action for example) or due to the ship falling into a niche that isn't extremely popular even though the ship performs exceptionally in that niche (the Hyperion is a great example of this). So the result is that for now we are going to leave BS alone and keep checking back for opportunities to make improvements.

HACs on the other hand are a slightly different story. In general the class gained a lot of power in the last pass and it's seeing plenty of use across the board, but there are some pretty clear imbalances between certain ships in the class. If you've undocked lately you probably know the Ishtar especially is a little out of control. Here's the small set of changes we're going to make:

Ishtar:
Bonus to drone tracking and optimal range from 7.5% per level -> 5% per level
Max Velocity from 195 -> 185

Eagle:
Max Velocity from 180 -> 190

Muninn:
Max velocity from 210 -> 230

We expect that some of you will feel this is far too gentle on the Ishtar, and we understand that (it's what we heard from the CSM as well), but we get releases very often now and we're happy to be conservative here, rather than nuke it out of the game, and just make more changes if they're needed in the following release.

Looking forward to your feedback as always

PS - how would you feel about an 8/4/7 Tempest?


8/4/7 Tempest .... so an armour boat ... I can safely say this will be contentious. Terrible DPS, terrible range, and now a inability to get in range to apply terrible DPS. It was, and forever has been, crap. It seems it forever will be.

Ishtar: seriously? Its breathtakingly overpowered. The tracking and range will go down significantly, but it will still crap all over this Muninn for example.
Wrecking Machine.
#8 - 2014-07-29 14:06:03 UTC
Hi Rise.
You've heard it before, but I'm gonna say it anyway. Remove sentry drones from Ishtar. With sentries, the Ishtar got both the DPS and the Range of a Batleship, which is somewhat out of order for a super speedy Cruiser hull.
All other HACs got either range or DPS comparable to Battleships, but not both. It don't make sense. Ugh
#9 - 2014-07-29 14:08:30 UTC
Our Ishtar doctrine will probably just drop the scram (and stop pretending to be heavy tackle, it was **** anyway) and fit an Omnidirectional, making this little nerf completely useless.

GG.

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If EVE is real, does that mean all of us are RMTrs?[/b]

Goonswarm Federation
#10 - 2014-07-29 14:09:57 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

We expect that some of you will feel this is far too gentle on the Ishtar, and we understand that (it's what we heard from the CSM as well), but we get releases very often now and we're happy to be conservative here, rather than nuke it out of the game, and just make more changes if they're needed in the following release.

These changes do nothing to affect the issue with the Ishtar (it has battleship-level DPS weapons that can hit nearly anything with virtually no downside). You would have been better off not doing anything to the ishtar than essentially redoing the paint because at least doing nothing wouldn't be quite as insulting.
Shadow Cartel
#11 - 2014-07-29 14:11:57 UTC  |  Edited by: TrouserDeagle
+50 hull again, is it?

I guess a few more months of waiting couldn't hurt.

edit: why is my armour/combat drone ishtar being nerfed?
#12 - 2014-07-29 14:12:43 UTC
Do you even know how important the tracking bonus is on ishtar?
It will still be used yes but this nerf puts it into line with other hacs.

You should nerf harpies.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.

HYDRA RELOADED
#13 - 2014-07-29 14:13:04 UTC
I have hoped the Muninn would get a midslot more :(

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#14 - 2014-07-29 14:14:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky
I still don't think ships like the abaddon or hyperion are fieldable because of their "exceptional performance in a niche" its extremely underwhelming and I'd rather bring a battleship or equivalent that can fill that niche as well as do other things. I think the Abaddon and Hyperion's massive capacitor problems (especially the Abaddon) make them very difficult to use and apply. I find countless fits that must use heavy capacitor boosters because the abaddon and other similar ships simply cannot be viable at all without them.

Because of this I feel that why should I ever bring an abaddon when any other battleship fills the role far better? Yes the abaddon has its massive tank and such but its not very good at anything else because of mobility, cap problems I just don't think its applicable as anything other than a brick, a heavy nearly unthrowable brick. Why bring an abaddon when I can field other battleships that have just as good tank and better DPS applications (or role applications for that matter) because they don't have capacitor problems!
#15 - 2014-07-29 14:14:24 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:

We expect that some of you will feel this is far too gentle on the Ishtar, and we understand that (it's what we heard from the CSM as well), but we get releases very often now and we're happy to be conservative here, rather than nuke it out of the game, and just make more changes if they're needed in the following release.

These changes do nothing to affect the issue with the Ishtar (it has battleship-level DPS weapons that can hit nearly anything with virtually no downside). You would have been better off not doing anything to the ishtar than essentially redoing the paint because at least doing nothing wouldn't be quite as insulting.



perhaps reducing the drone damage bonus to 7.5% ??

also is the nerf too heavies aswell as sentries?

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Catherine Laartii
#16 - 2014-07-29 14:16:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Catherine Laartii
CCP Rise wrote:
Hi guys

You may or may not have seen me make a post a while back saying that we were intending to do a revisit on battleship and heavy assault cruiser balance for this summer, and I can now be a little more specific with you about that!

After digging into this we were both happy and a bit surprised to find that there weren't a lot of clear changes needed. Battleships especially seem to be in a pretty solid place. There are ships within the class getting less use than others, but that is almost completely due to either the meta favoring certain things (this is why the Abaddon isn't seeing a lot of action for example) or due to the ship falling into a niche that isn't extremely popular even though the ship performs exceptionally in that niche (the Hyperion is a great example of this). So the result is that for now we are going to leave BS alone and keep checking back for opportunities to make improvements.



PS - how would you feel about an 8/4/7 Tempest?


I feel that while I would prefer to keep its flexibility in shield tanking since shield tempests are a thing, the more important thing to look at for it are its bonuses. It currently suffers the distinction as being the only "attack" battleship gunship without any damage projection or application bonuses, and while it CAN be argued that projectiles have superior range and tracking and thus don't need said bonuses, it's a poor case to make compared to laser ships like the Apocalypse.

A tweak I would recommend that's been talked about would be to bring it up to a full 8 guns, and drop the firing rate bonus on it in favor of a tracking bonus. Not only would this give you a desirable alternate artillery platform to the tornado and maelstrom, it would cement its role as an "attack" battleship very nicely, as currently it remains the only shield attack battleship that use guns as its primary weapon system.

This would help it distinguish it from its counterparts better, and it would help define its role a little more clearly. It gets crowded out by the tornado and maelstrom quite a bit, and giving it a tracking bonus would help it immensely.

Short of this if you think it would be too overpowered, could you possibly give the Tempest Fleet issue the 8 guns and tracking bonus? Make it a giant Stabber Fleet Issue?

TLDR; Tempest should keep its slots, but change its bonuses from 5% dmg and 5% firing rate to an 8 gun ship with 5% damage and 7.5% tracking speed per level.

EDIT: After taking a look at things and thinking it over a bit, I'm going to amend my earlier statement and go all in for the tempest. It should get the same treatment and slot loadout as the hyperion, with dropping a high for a low, going for a 10% damage bonus and a 7.5% tracking speed bonus, and a 7 gun setup with those bonuses with the current slots intact, since it was pointed out that keeping 6 guns with a 10% damage bonus earlier would amount to a DPS drop. So yeah; 8/5/6 slot loadout as it is now, but 10% damage and 7.5% tracking speed buff for 7 guns.

What are your thoughts on that setup, Rise?
Pandemic Legion
#17 - 2014-07-29 14:16:29 UTC
Pls more love for the Muninn I actually want to use mine :<

If thuggin' was a category I'd win a Grammy

#18 - 2014-07-29 14:17:53 UTC
Harvey James wrote:

perhaps reducing the drone damage bonus to 7.5% ??

also is the nerf too heavies aswell as sentries?

Wow lets just go from overpowered to goddamn useless ok?

No, taking standard drone bonus down would make it useless.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.

Cynosural Field Theory.
#19 - 2014-07-29 14:18:49 UTC
[14:17:58] Bob FromMarketing > fix mimir
Shadow Cartel
#20 - 2014-07-29 14:18:52 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Hi guys

You may or may not have seen me make a post a while back saying that we were intending to do a revisit on battleship and heavy assault cruiser balance for this summer, and I can now be a little more specific with you about that!

After digging into this we were both happy and a bit surprised to find that there weren't a lot of clear changes needed. Battleships especially seem to be in a pretty solid place. There are ships within the class getting less use than others, but that is almost completely due to either the meta favoring certain things (this is why the Abaddon isn't seeing a lot of action for example) or due to the ship falling into a niche that isn't extremely popular even though the ship performs exceptionally in that niche (the Hyperion is a great example of this). So the result is that for now we are going to leave BS alone and keep checking back for opportunities to make improvements.



PS - how would you feel about an 8/4/7 Tempest?


I feel that while I would prefer to keep its flexibility in shield tanking since shield tempests are a thing, the more important thing to look at for it are its bonuses. It currently suffers the distinction as being the only "attack" battleship gunship without any damage projection bonuses, and while it CAN be argued that projectiles have superior range and tracking and thus don't need said bonuses, it's a poor case to make compared to laser ships like the Apocalypse.

A tweak I would recommend that's been talked about would be to bring it up to a full 8 guns, and drop the firing rate bonus on it in favor of a tracking bonus. Not only would this give you a desirable alternate artillery platform to the tornado and maelstrom, it would cement its role as an "attack" battleship very nicely, as currently it remains the only shield attack battleship, except certain monsters spawned in the federation (We will not speak of the dominix in anything but hushed and fearful tones).

TLDR; Tempest should keep its slots, but change its bonuses from 5% dmg and 5% firing rate to an 8 gun ships with 5% damage and 7.5% tracking speed per level.


I think it's a projectiles problem. they just have no dps at any ranges, ever. but a general weapons rebalance seems unlikely, considering how long this non-change has taken.
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