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Changes to SOV , Power Projection & Nullsec Stagnation

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Author
Manfred Sideous
H A V O C
Hooligans.
#1 - 2014-07-02 16:22:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Manfred Sideous
Hello all ,


So the title of this thread is pretty bold in its assertion. First before I get to "the ideas" let me spin you a little tale of yesteryear. A tale of a Eve that I had been part of. Once upon a time before capitals existed and before anyone ever heard of a jump bridge Eve was exciting. I started out in nullsec in the Querious region in a alliance called Firmus Ixion. In that time there weren't any capitals or jumpbridges. Living in nullsec was exciting and dangerous. We depended on keeping logistic lanes safe so we could stay supplied in nullsec. This meant pipes to empire had to be controlled which also meant hotbed areas for small to medium engagements.


Nullsec entrances were/are sparse so opposing entities would jockey over controlling them daily. There would be fights and skirmishes to win the right to control the nullsec entrance. Keeping markets and pilots stocked was important in those days. Because you could beat/break an alliance as you do now but you could also starve them out. Literally siege them and strangle they're logistics and run them out of ships to fight you. Miners were important to nullsec alliances because importing minerals wasn't practical ( no jumpfreighters or jumpbridges ). This meant mining ops were a daily affair. Which in turn meant defense gangs were a thing and hostile raiding parties were also a thing spurring even more fights. Builders/Industrialist were important because again just simply importing everything from empire was not practical. This meant creating a safe environment so they can do their work.

You see surviving as a sov holding alliance in nullsec was like being part of a village or a team. Everyone depended on eachother to do something to help the village/team survive. There were other things during that time that were different. Alliances still had allies but you had less allies than the giant monolithic coalitions of today. Reasons being was because there were no jumpdrives or bridges you had to travel for PVP content. Nobody likes to travel an hour to find there first neutral. So typically you had regional blocks. The old south had 6 different coalitions at one point alone. You still had epic fights but conflicts were mostly smaller.


Now I know you all are sitting here saying "Manny is all nostalgic recalling the old days with rose tinted glasses ". I have been having this conversation with friends for a few years. I have been listening to the reasons my ideas won't work even though people agree it would solve current issues. Things l have been told are "CCP will never remove jumpdrives and jumpbridges people like easy & convenient stuff too much" "If you remove jumpbridges and jumpdrives you won't see anymore B-Rs, Asakais etc etc. CCP depends on those headlines to draw new customers" . To which I say removing them is imperative and a piece of what needs to be done to change the game in a positive manner for everyone.


So here is the problem with Nullsec now and Nullsec is important because the headlines us nullsec'rs make are the headlines that CCP uses for marketing. We are down to 2 coalitions left. It is not in either coalitions best interest to let any new parties into nullsec unless they can be subverted or be used for cheap farming at a later date ( Hi Hero coalition soz but its the the truth ). Neither coalition is going to give up space to just let some new guys come out to nullsec. The only way you are getting out here is to join an existing coalition or become a renter. All of the money from moons and renters are controlled by the 2 coalitions. We make agreements to protect those incomes so we can keep on living the "good life". Conflict will only happen when we have to give content to line members so we can justify our existance. That conflict will be in the form of Proxy wars not full on attack. So expect once a year for there to be a war in nullsec and the rest of the time coalitions will maneuver for advantage on the next conflict. Im sorry to say but this is where we are at unless CCP changes something. Lets face it most of all the changes we've heard about can be gamed and only hurt the little guy.

@EveManny

https://twitter.com/EveManny

Manfred Sideous
H A V O C
Hooligans.
#2 - 2014-07-02 16:22:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Manfred Sideous
CHANGES

Arrow Jumprdrives limited jumprange to adjacent system only. (lightyear distance is irrelevant)
Arrow All capitals can use stargates.
Arrow Jumpfreighters gain bubble immunity & +3 warp core stability
Arrow One Jumpbridge per system can only connect to adjacent* system (lightyear distance is irrelevant)
Arrow Regional Trade NPC is created to exchange racial building materials for other racial building materials the exchange rate would be based off the market trading average. So if you want to trade Helium Isotopes for Hydrogen isotope and Helium is 1000 p/u and Hydrogen is 500 p/u you would receive 2 units of hydrogen.
Arrow NPC Traders would be seeded initially in the conquerable stations in null sec and in a smattering of NPC Nullsec stations. There would be a station upgrade available that then could be added into player built stations.
Arrow NPC Trader upgrades would be hackable to disable the service for a period of 8 hours or until someone unhacks the hack.

ArrowCRONUS MAXIMUS Had a Awesome idea of Alchemy. You could take a racial specific item and transform it into another racial specific item by means of Alchemy
Arrow New levels of Pirate and Mining upgrades become available expanding the amount of players a single system could support. New levels of Wormhole and Specific wormhole spawn upgrades. ( You would be able to add the chance of wormholes spawning in your system as well as wormholes that have direct connections to lowsec or hisec. This would be a way of creating back pipes to empire.
ArrowSovereignty cost has 3 added modifiers

  1. Proximity to other owned sov. So if you own a system and your other sov is not connected to that system then the cost is increased of the unconnected system.
  2. Pirate & Mining index affects sov cost along with Market Transactions , Docking Fees. So if you are at level 4 or higher than there is no cost modifier. But 3 , 2 , 1 affects the cost. (levels are subjective and clearly open to debate/adjustment)

Arrow The aforementioned criteria could also be modifiers for effecting Sov structure tenacity. So a lightly or unused system would have structures with shorter RF cycles and less EHP. As system lose or gain tenacity the resist are modified on the sov structures. So a completely unused system with Sov would have 0% resist on the sov structures. Where conversely a well utilized system with sov would have 80% ( debateable) resistance to its sov structures. This tenacity would make it much harder to kill the sov structures.
Arrow Stations are destructible. You wreck/kill the station all assets are relocated like a clone to a lowsec location. Perhaps it leaves a wreck that can be rebuilt who knows who cares we all want this lets do it and be done with it.
Arrow Once a party conquers a station they have the option to put it into the destruction RF cycle. The station enters a 7day RF cycle where during this cycle anyone can come and repair the stations (Structure?) to a certain level cancelling the destruction cycle. Once the destruction cycle is aborted if cannot be started again till the station has been reconquered.
Arrow Ihubs & Station & POS become hackable. Meaning that a player can hack the ihub and disable a upgrade for X period of time ( 8 hours?) . When a player initiates a hack it emotes in local with a countdown and a notification is sent to the alliance via evemail that someone is attempting a hack. If that player isn't interrupted in a period of time (15 mins?) then the targeted upgrade is disabled.
Arrow Hackable things would be , Cloning , Repair , Factory , Refining , Fitting , Moon Harvesters , Reactors , Refineries , Pirate upgrades , Mining upgrades , Cyno Beacon , Jumpbridge , Cyno Jammer.
Arrow Asteroids are rebalanced so that lower tier roids produce some abc and higher tier roids produce lower tier mins. That way as nullsec miners mine the ABC's they are getting the trit and Pyerite etcetera that they need to realistically produce.
Arrow Deathclone changes to only closest station with dockable access or players birth system.

*Adjacent is defined by gate connection

@EveManny

https://twitter.com/EveManny

Manfred Sideous
H A V O C
Hooligans.
#3 - 2014-07-02 16:25:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Manfred Sideous
So the goals here are to take a blunt hammer to power projection without removing the shinies that people want/covet/like. We want a level playing field because adding more tope usage or things like that only hurts the little guy. We want to break up the coalitions to give room for the little guy and for newer groups to have a chance in nullsec. Because lets face it is your alliance going to keep its blue list if you literally have to travel a hour or more in 1 direction to find PVP content? Maybe so and if they do you will atrophy from lack of pvp content. O also you can't just deploy your alliance to another part of the game thats hostile to get easy content while your blue home is safe. Because if you do that your sov cost goes up as your indexes fall and your structures become easier to destroy.



Now bringing everything in from empire to survive in nullsec is hard as hell unless you want to do freighter ops all day. So the answer is you will want miners and builders in your home to supply your markets with the goods you need/want to survive. Perhaps you are really good at producing making things. You can export those to empire or npc markets for more income. There would still be wars and sov contest but they would be more regional. You would still see epic fights over pivotal timers ( people would call in help from outsiders for important fights ) but fights would be more localized. Mercs would be very important again. I mean if you're alliance is more slanted to industrial pursuits than say PVP chances are you will be better funded better suited to sustain a long siege and have the finances to hire people to augment or assist in your fighting capability.



This also means you will have to have mining ops and keep logistic lanes clear/free of hostiles. Which means defense gangs/fleets. Which provides perfect opportunities for small to medium size engagements. Reasons to gatecamp reasons to raid those gatecamps and mining parties. This means content this is conflict drivers. This creates tension between neighbors and gives reason to forge friendships or wage war. It means your alliance only holds what sov it can use because unused underutilized sov cost more and is easy to take.


See a sandbox thrives when you create interaction and the best way to do that is through creating dependency and by waving carrots. Anyway HTH CCP please make it so.

@EveManny

https://twitter.com/EveManny

Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Mercenary Coalition
#4 - 2014-07-02 16:39:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
New parties into the current state of 00 sec? Why? Are they big? Can they create headlines like the 2 BBB? I doubt it. And since they cannot create headlines nor otherwise meaningful content, they are not needed in the current state of 00 sec. Roll With the current mechanics and, probably more importantly, the very simple-minded meta gaming around Sov 00 sec, you cannot get into Sov 00 without succumbing to one of the blocks or get kicked out. Even with your changes.

Your suggestions, especially the JF bubble immunity, is very funny. ^^ If you can only jump to the next system, where's the point of having a jump drive at all? They are expensive, they need a cyno everyone can warp to, they then offer no benefit anymore.

And by the way: Why is there yet another thread about this topic? It has been discussed over and over, even in several topics in the last couple of weeks...

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#5 - 2014-07-02 16:52:47 UTC
Do ya have any group actually supporting this change? Because I could see CCP making sweeping changes like that only if everybody currently "important" in null were to stand behind those change and push them as a group effort but the current statu-quo won't be completely changed because :reasons: just because someone else have posted his own personal point of view.
Aryndel Vyst
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2014-07-02 17:00:23 UTC
You could have summed this post up by just saying "Hey here's how I want to fix nullsec: Remove jump drives"

Because that's pretty much what you are saying.
Manfred Sideous
H A V O C
Hooligans.
#7 - 2014-07-02 17:00:57 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Do ya have any group actually supporting this change? Because I could see CCP making sweeping changes like that only if everybody currently "important" in null were to stand behind those change and push them as a group effort but the current statu-quo won't be completely changed because :reasons: just because someone else have posted his own personal point of view.



I havn't campaigned anyone to support this. All I can say is if you don't dismiss the idea immediately and give it some real thought then this is a good idea. I am one of the FC's in one of the top alliances in the game that arguably is one of the most powerful and influential in nullsec. With the current status quo my alliance is making isk hand over fist we can do what we want when we want where we want and there are very few that can stop that. If I were looking at the issue merely from whats best for my alliance right now id say "No F'ing way " to these changes. But ultimately I see a healthier robust nullsec as a good thing for Eve as a whole and in turn better for my alliance and myself.

@EveManny

https://twitter.com/EveManny

Manfred Sideous
H A V O C
Hooligans.
#8 - 2014-07-02 17:02:58 UTC
Aryndel Vyst wrote:
You could have summed this post up by just saying "Hey here's how I want to fix nullsec: Remove jump drives"

Because that's pretty much what you are saying.


Well yeah but removing jumpdrives messes other things up like logistics and supplies in nullsec. So you need changes to compensate for that so you aren't punishing people you are simply creating a new alternative to a old broken system.

@EveManny

https://twitter.com/EveManny

Retar Aveymone
DJ's Retirement Fund
Goonswarm Federation
#9 - 2014-07-02 17:20:43 UTC
I haven't finished analyzing the rest of your ideas, but you do yourself no favors by claiming mineral importation didn't exist before jump freighters. Mineral importation existed - and was even more effective - before jump freighters through carrier jumping of passive targeters in iterons stuffed in a carrier SMA, or oversized guns fitted to destroyers in a carrier SMA. It has never been the case that 0.0 alliances supplied themselves trit locally through mining.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Mercenary Coalition
#10 - 2014-07-02 17:22:06 UTC
Manfred Sideous wrote:
Aryndel Vyst wrote:
You could have summed this post up by just saying "Hey here's how I want to fix nullsec: Remove jump drives"

Because that's pretty much what you are saying.


Well yeah but removing jumpdrives messes other things up like logistics and supplies in nullsec. So you need changes to compensate for that so you aren't punishing people you are simply creating a new alternative to a old broken system.


Uh...

Quote:
ArrowJumprdrives limited jumprange to adjacent system only. (lightyear distance is irrelevant)


*is slightly confused*

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Manfred Sideous
H A V O C
Hooligans.
#11 - 2014-07-02 17:35:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Manfred Sideous
Retar Aveymone wrote:
I haven't finished analyzing the rest of your ideas, but you do yourself no favors by claiming mineral importation didn't exist before jump freighters. Mineral importation existed - and was even more effective - before jump freighters through carrier jumping of passive targeters in iterons stuffed in a carrier SMA, or oversized guns fitted to destroyers in a carrier SMA. It has never been the case that 0.0 alliances supplied themselves trit locally through mining.


before jumpdrives and jumpbridges

@EveManny

https://twitter.com/EveManny

Retar Aveymone
DJ's Retirement Fund
Goonswarm Federation
#12 - 2014-07-02 17:57:46 UTC
Manfred Sideous wrote:
Retar Aveymone wrote:
I haven't finished analyzing the rest of your ideas, but you do yourself no favors by claiming mineral importation didn't exist before jump freighters. Mineral importation existed - and was even more effective - before jump freighters through carrier jumping of passive targeters in iterons stuffed in a carrier SMA, or oversized guns fitted to destroyers in a carrier SMA. It has never been the case that 0.0 alliances supplied themselves trit locally through mining.


before jumpdrives and jumpbridges

so your entire "golden age of eve" was the eight months between when alliances were introduced (november 2004) and capitals were introduced (july 2005), back when all of the superhighways still existed to Yulai (and you did all this building without even freighters, which didn't exist yet, shuffling trit from the one refinery station per region to one of the two factory stations per region, in an iteron)

that's just wrong, and back then so little existed of the game we know today and people's skills were so low compared to where they are today that it's just not a relevant point to look at. I have a great deal of sympathy for the general idea that 0.0 needs to be made vast again so that anyime you start a minor tiff on the other side of the galaxy we can't barrel in for laughs and vice versa, but pointing to a "golden age" of outpost-free, dictor-free, freighter-free, 0.0 where miners mined without hulks and then lovingly transported their ore to the refinery station, then lovingly transported their trit to the factory station where they built things (instead of just convoying from yulai) either didn't exist, or was only fun because it was still novel
Manfred Sideous
H A V O C
Hooligans.
#13 - 2014-07-02 18:00:53 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
Manfred Sideous wrote:
Retar Aveymone wrote:
I haven't finished analyzing the rest of your ideas, but you do yourself no favors by claiming mineral importation didn't exist before jump freighters. Mineral importation existed - and was even more effective - before jump freighters through carrier jumping of passive targeters in iterons stuffed in a carrier SMA, or oversized guns fitted to destroyers in a carrier SMA. It has never been the case that 0.0 alliances supplied themselves trit locally through mining.


before jumpdrives and jumpbridges

so your entire "golden age of eve" was the eight months between when alliances were introduced (november 2004) and capitals were introduced (july 2005), back when all of the superhighways still existed to Yulai (and you did all this building without even freighters, which didn't exist yet, shuffling trit from the one refinery station per region to one of the two factory stations per region, in an iteron)

that's just wrong, and back then so little existed of the game we know today and people's skills were so low compared to where they are today that it's just not a relevant point to look at. I have a great deal of sympathy for the general idea that 0.0 needs to be made vast again so that anyime you start a minor tiff on the other side of the galaxy we can't barrel in for laughs and vice versa, but pointing to a "golden age" of outpost-free, dictor-free, freighter-free, 0.0 where miners mined without hulks and then lovingly transported their ore to the refinery station, then lovingly transported their trit to the factory station where they built things (instead of just convoying from yulai) either didn't exist, or was only fun because it was still novel


Yeah because the moment they released capitals and supercapitals everyone had them that instant and were using them at such a rate that it had the impact on the game that they do today or even close for that matter :colbert:

@EveManny

https://twitter.com/EveManny

Retar Aveymone
DJ's Retirement Fund
Goonswarm Federation
#14 - 2014-07-02 18:39:31 UTC
aaugh forum ate my post
Allison A'vani
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2014-07-02 19:17:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Allison A'vani
I don't know the last time you had to do any alliance logistical work Manny, but as someone in PL who uses their JF more than any other ship in the game I have to 100% disagree with you. If this became a thing, then 0.0 would essentially die. Regardless of any resource localization done in 0.0 from mining, ratting, or plexing, you still have to import a ton of things for basic industry as they are region bound (go look at a T2 reaction flow/build chart) adding in a resource trading NPC would not be that useful either as that would end up price fixing all the materials, then you also run into issues of how you define racial building materials? Do you mean the basic moon goo? Do you mean reacted moon goo? Do you mean advance construction parts? Do you mean exploration research items? Do you mean isotopes?

If this happened then no one in 0.0 would ever use t2 modules nor ships as sourcing them would be near impossible without an extreme amount of work, especially as most of the exploration sites spawn in high-sec and low-sec space.

Price of t2 ships and modules would skyrocket overnight as fueling a pos would be a nightmare and moving moon goo would be suicide. Additionally there are a limited amount of lowsec systems with a high-sec system next door. This would choke-hold the number of moons available in the game for reactions both T2 and T3.

Moons and systems in deep 0.0 would be abandoned as there would be no way to move products out of those systems in any way that was not a complete chore. Other than the bounty isk itself there would be no reason to kill any rats since selling the drops is not worth the time of moving said drops as you could make more isk/hour just killing more rats rather than wasting time trying to move the loot drops. Currently, most of the Zydrine and Nocxium in the game is produced from ores mined in 0.0 and would result in a massive shortage of both, so t1 ship prices would also skyrocket.

Basically the entire 0.0 outside of border regions to empire space would be abandoned and you would see a mass exodus back to high/low sec.

The entire in game economy relies on the Jump Freighter making logistics not more of an absolute pain in the ass than it already is. If my JF was limited to jumping 1 system at a time I would strait up unsub my accounts.
SFM Hobb3s
Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society
Solyaris Chtonium
#16 - 2014-07-02 19:25:52 UTC
Everyone loves 'content' IE explosions. I agree with pretty much everything you are saying. Logically, if you break down the entities, create more possible 'fronts' in null, then you are definitely going to have more content, even if smaller scale (who says that isn't great?)

I'd love to see a system where claiming sov on a system incurs a HUGE financial cost to a coalition, and this is only offset, on a continual (possibly daily) basis by performing the required amount of ratting/mining in that system. The alliance then sees a positive gain once enough of this is done on a continual basis.

And make it so jump bridges can only be set up on systems where all the systems in between have reached that required useage level. Perhaps it could be scaled much the same way I see the occasional system status scale on incursions. For one, you'd have much higher concentrations of activity (make those system chock-full of ratters/miners) which accomplishes considerable content you spoke of (ie a target rich environment for roaming, plus opportunity and need for defensive fleets).

This might force all the coalitions to condense a fair bit, because maintaining space is now actually a challenge, but it could open space for new entities. Getting rid of jump drives though...I dunno. If I was going to do this, I might first do something else, like make it so that cynos can only be opened by much bigger and expensive ships.
Tikitina
Doomheim
#17 - 2014-07-02 19:51:28 UTC
Nobody used to the current "easy" system will ever support a more realistic "hard" system.

Outstanding logistics supports power projection.

No one doing logistics now will ever support going to a more realistic system where logistics is harder.

Real World logistics can require 30-60% of total forces involved, and can be more readily interdicted by equal combatants.

Logistics in this game should be mostly NPC, which would allow for more realistic lines of communication interdiction.

No one used to the current system will ever support it. They feel it shouldn't exist in the game in the first place. (truly)

Truly vulnerable and interdict-able logistics that combat forces require far from home systems would be the best limitation to power projection.


But, those who already do the current system and reap in the benefits of unlimited power projection will never support it.
Why should they?
Alternative Splicing
Captain Content and The Contenteers
#18 - 2014-07-02 20:39:43 UTC
Manfred Sideous wrote:
So here is the problem with Nullsec now and Nullsec is important because the headlines us nullsec'rs make are the headlines that CCP uses for marketing.


Yes, but even after a huge battle and spike in new subscription numbers, how many of those people stick around? What they read about or watch, and what they experience will probably be so different as to be irreconcilable. Creating environments that foster persistent subscriptions, interest, and content would seem to go farther in the long run.
Manfred Sideous
H A V O C
Hooligans.
#19 - 2014-07-02 20:56:48 UTC
Allison A'vani wrote:
I don't know the last time you had to do any alliance logistical work Manny, but as someone in PL who uses their JF more than any other ship in the game I have to 100% disagree with you. If this became a thing, then 0.0 would essentially die. Regardless of any resource localization done in 0.0 from mining, ratting, or plexing, you still have to import a ton of things for basic industry as they are region bound (go look at a T2 reaction flow/build chart) adding in a resource trading NPC would not be that useful either as that would end up price fixing all the materials, then you also run into issues of how you define racial building materials? Do you mean the basic moon goo? Do you mean reacted moon goo? Do you mean advance construction parts? Do you mean exploration research items? Do you mean isotopes?


Not price fixing if the exchange rate is based off market differences. So if you trade a helium Isotope it might be worth 1.2 hydrogen isotopes based off what the current market average was.

Allison A'vani wrote:
If this happened then no one in 0.0 would ever use t2 modules nor ships as sourcing them would be near impossible without an extreme amount of work, especially as most of the exploration sites spawn in high-sec and low-sec space.


Really because I mean you can take a wormhole to empire or you could move any sort of industrial type to empire via a pipe. I mean I was around when this thing was done on a daily basis. Hell I can remember doing it myself because I could make a hauler run or 2 too empire a day and seed it in my alliances market and make a easy 20% it was easy isk.

Allison A'vani wrote:
Price of t2 ships and modules would skyrocket overnight as fueling a pos would be a nightmare and moving moon goo would be suicide. Additionally there are a limited amount of lowsec systems with a high-sec system next door. This would choke-hold the number of moons available in the game for reactions both T2 and T3.


We got along just fine before jumpfreighters on fueling pos and moving moongoo. But in order to do so your alliance would want to police its space so you could move about. Also we used these things back in the day when we moved haulers and freighters called scouts and intel channels they were so OP.

Allison A'vani wrote:
Moons and systems in deep 0.0 would be abandoned as there would be no way to move products out of those systems in any way that was not a complete chore. Other than the bounty isk itself there would be no reason to kill any rats since selling the drops is not worth the time of moving said drops as you could make more isk/hour just killing more rats rather than wasting time trying to move the loot drops. Currently, most of the Zydrine and Nocxium in the game is produced from ores mined in 0.0 and would result in a massive shortage of both, so t1 ship prices would also skyrocket..
Basically the entire 0.0 outside of border regions to empire space would be abandoned and you would see a mass exodus back to high/low sec.


Friend ASCN , Prime Orbital Systems , D2 , Razor would like to disagree with you. They used that space quite well . About the loot again you are incorrect I use to sell my loot wholesale to industrialist.



Allison A'vani wrote:
The entire in game economy relies on the Jump Freighter making logistics not more of an absolute pain in the ass than it already is. If my JF was limited to jumping 1 system at a time I would strait up unsub my accounts.


Its funny the economy got along just fine before jumpfreighters.

@EveManny

https://twitter.com/EveManny

The Ironfist
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
#20 - 2014-07-02 21:05:18 UTC  |  Edited by: The Ironfist
Industry needs to more localized but making logistics sooo painful that one wants to kill himself what is the point of that? This is a game and it is supposed to be fun eve is already the most unfun MMO ever. There should be better ways to achieve what you are looking for. I'm not interested in paying 150 quit per month for a game that is 10 hours of logistics work to be able to fight one hour.

Besides I for one prefer to wait how the changes that CCP is doing to industry this month will play out. 30% material req. in all amarr outposts in nullsec and the ability to upgrade them even further should change the landscape a bit. Because the size of wallets wont matter as much anymore when carriers and dreads cost 200 and 350mil to build respectively. Making PVP cheaper means there'll be more of it all over the place. When you can "rat up" a battleship in 30minutes of ratting hopefully risk aversion will go away.
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