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[Crius] Research feedback

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ShesAForumAlt
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2014-06-11 16:00:04 UTC
Apparently when the UI corrects the max runs on a copy, it doesn't propagate the correction over to the right side where it summarizes time and cost - 10 trillion isk Ultraviolet S copy anyone?

http://i.imgur.com/Q0c9LV3.png

Also agree that it might be better to do day + HH:MM:SS for duration rather than DD:HH:MM:SS simply because its slightly easier for people to read the first way.

This is totally my main. 
Fredric Wolf
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#62 - 2014-06-11 16:42:54 UTC
Not sure where to put this but research looks to be the best place. Currently there is only 1 type of outpost in null-sec that has a suicide undock. As we can not destroy stations currently could we possibly get a slightly larger docking radius to Caldari outposts.
ElectronHerd Askulf
Aridia Logistical Misdirection
#63 - 2014-06-11 16:46:26 UTC
Invention of Gyrostabalizers is showing as requiring 40 of each datacore type. Is it assuming I want to do 20 invention runs off this max-copy BPC, is something borked, or did I miss a change. I've done a bit of hunting, but I was busy with RL when the blueprint changes thread was active, so may have missed it.

thanks.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#64 - 2014-06-11 16:56:25 UTC
ElectronHerd Askulf wrote:
Invention of Gyrostabalizers is showing as requiring 40 of each datacore type. Is it assuming I want to do 20 invention runs off this max-copy BPC, is something borked, or did I miss a change. I've done a bit of hunting, but I was busy with RL when the blueprint changes thread was active, so may have missed it.

thanks.


Bug that I've just fixed internally, I did some fancy math to scale datacore amounts based on max runs, but forgot to look up the T2 type value instead of using the current row (ie the T1 type) :)
constructum
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#65 - 2014-06-11 17:05:32 UTC
not sure if this goes here

is the massive increase of datacore usage for invention intentional, or is it simply a database mistake

example
on tranquility
1 invention run for a vexor costs 8 gallente starship and 8 mechanical engineering datacores

on sisi
1 invention run costs 80 gallente starship and 80 mechanical engineering datacores

thats an order of magnitude increase in cost for no discernable difference in output.

other odd datacore values
on tranq
xray small, med and large all cost 1/1 datacores to invent
on sisi
xray small, med and large cost 60/60, 30/30, 20/20 respectively, so small ammo costs 3x the mats to invent as large ammo
Lord Alex2
Packet Loss Ltd.
#66 - 2014-06-11 17:16:40 UTC
Issues noted with Invention:
Invention interface is really choppy/slow when delivering jobs.
Delivered jobs are not removed automatically, you have to apply a filter/switch tabs for delivered items to disappear
Lord Alex2
Packet Loss Ltd.
#67 - 2014-06-11 17:22:22 UTC
I cannot invent warp scramblers http://i.imgur.com/7HN2he9.png am I doing something wrong?
Tragot Gomndor
Three Sword Inc
#68 - 2014-06-11 18:58:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Tragot Gomndor
well, i get "mismatch cost" in my own pos when i try to copy or research a bpo, now i gonna try it at some station, if thats mismatching too, we cant really test anything yet...

EDIT:

yeah, not working as well

Error.MISMATCH_COST (367, 346)
Error.MISMATCH_TAX (37, 35)

Nothing to test here, please ignore!!!

NONONONONONO TO CAPS IN HIGHSEC NO
TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#69 - 2014-06-11 22:34:10 UTC
I'll ask this here again since it's primarily a research issue and maybe a UI thing.

Why is a reduction of something indicated with a plus sign and an increase of something indicated with a minus sign? Surely it should be the other way around? I'm trying to come up with a logical train of thought to end up at the current system but I'm having a really really hard time.

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Wydo
OMEGADYNE LABS
Rising Darkness
#70 - 2014-06-12 00:08:25 UTC
Invented 5 Gyrostabilizer II BPCs last night in the corporation POS.
Used a Meta 3 Gyrostab in the process
Invented BPCs came out with only 1 run each, ME 2 TE 4.

Today I tried to invent more in the corporation POS but I am getting:
Unable to install job due to the following reasons:
The Job cost has changed
Error: MISMATCH_COST (795, 823)

I tried switching corporation wallets, but I am still getting the same error.
Have tried several other BPCs all return a similar message.
Logged off and logged back on, no change.
Tried a different character, same results.
Unable to invent anything in the array.
Switched arrays -- same result--no invention possible.

When I right clicked "Use Blueprint" from within the Design Array it opened the Industry window with the BPC at the center.
Today, right clicking "use blueprint" will not open the window. I must go to the neocom tab and double-click to open the window. Once opened, I can switch BPCs by right clicking on them

Questions: T2 BPCs invented without decryptors that were ported over from tranquility have an ME 6 and a PE 14. This is better than the ME 2 PE 4 I am getting on singularity. Is this intentional?

Copying a warrior I BPO. 20 Max Run (600 run BPCs) takes 14 + days... Am I reading this correctly?
Calara
Skilled Refugees
#71 - 2014-06-12 01:05:08 UTC
I'm seeing the same MISMATCH_COST errors as the previous two posters in a POS I just set up tonight and in a station.

Wydo: Yes, creating 20 max run BPCs will take forever. However, go back to page 1 and read posts #3 and #11 -- your 20 BPC's will give you 20*600 invention jobs to run, each one giving you a chance to generate a max-run T2 BPC. So, we don't need to do max run T1 BPC's anymore! Just set the runs/copies so your copies*runs equals the number of invention jobs you want to do.
Sales Alt negrodamus
Sanctuary of Shadows
#72 - 2014-06-12 03:15:53 UTC
invention doesn't seem to be working at all.

i'm trying to do some capital t2 trimarks as a test to see what decryptors do, however currently I am getting a 0% invention chance regardless of what decryptor (or lack thereof) I am using due to a -100% invention success chance bonus from the blueprint copy. That was freshly made on sisi.
Aineko Macx
#73 - 2014-06-12 05:49:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Aineko Macx
@ CCP: Please consider doing something about the insane scaling of research time on the bigger, slower blueprints:

As an example, take any capital ship BPO and compare a BP researched to ME5 to a ME10 under the current system. The difference in manufacturing material cost is typically very small and with linear time anyone can research just as far.

Under the new system, the difference in cost is suddenly very pronounced, and at the same time, reaching the higher research levels has become basically impossible due to the geometric time scaling and is also much more costly.
Basically this gives a huge advantage for the older industrials with already well researched BPs and makes the entry much more difficult for new players. Malcanis law applies once more. And I thought we were trying to avoid T2 BPO-like situations...

iveeCore 3.0: The PHP engine for industrial activities and CREST library
Aineko Macx
#74 - 2014-06-12 06:38:02 UTC
The more I think about it the clearer it becomes that changing from the current "linear research time for diminishing returns" to the new "geometric research time for linear returns" is a huge mistake. The only good thing about the new system is its greater similarity to the skill system, but the fallout from the required conversion alone should make this a big no-no.

iveeCore 3.0: The PHP engine for industrial activities and CREST library
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#75 - 2014-06-12 06:50:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
767 Days to research a Venture, a frigate, to ME10 and then the same for TE10 ... this is a little bit out of scope, don't you think? This is billions of ISK poured into a POS (even though it takes a little bit less), if you desire to use them, to research a frigate BPO, with which it would then take several years to recover this investment. This is ridiculous.
Or 7670 days for an Archon to ME10 at station cost (0% cost index level) of 179B ISK. While this level is not very practical, the sheer numbers are mad: 42 years to get this BPO to perfect ME/TE levels.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Neroo Tal
Order of the Golden Dawn
#76 - 2014-06-12 07:09:54 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Research time has some confirmed math kinks, looking into them.

Better error messages will ofc be forthcoming!


As put in HERE please stop complaining about research time as it is a math fudge... wait until they fix it good grief.
Alghara
Les chevaliers de l'ordre
Goonswarm Federation
#77 - 2014-06-12 08:21:21 UTC
the new board is cool.

But can you add some functionality.

When you make some invention or make some copy. You have to choice x number of parameter.

Example :

Copy : Number of run and number of copy per run

Invention : Decryptor, meta item etc.

That's will be great, if we can save some layout profile. (member and corporation). Like bookmark

When we make some production in team that's would be very use full.

Example : (corp layout profile for scythe) Copy

Copy number : 10
Number of copy per run : 15

etc.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#78 - 2014-06-12 10:14:37 UTC
TigerXtrm wrote:
I'll ask this here again since it's primarily a research issue and maybe a UI thing.

Why is a reduction of something indicated with a plus sign and an increase of something indicated with a minus sign? Surely it should be the other way around? I'm trying to come up with a logical train of thought to end up at the current system but I'm having a really really hard time.


Which bits specifically are you referring to here?

Aineko Macx wrote:
@ CCP: Please consider doing something about the insane scaling of research time on the bigger, slower blueprints:

As an example, take any capital ship BPO and compare a BP researched to ME5 to a ME10 under the current system. The difference in manufacturing material cost is typically very small and with linear time anyone can research just as far.

Under the new system, the difference in cost is suddenly very pronounced, and at the same time, reaching the higher research levels has become basically impossible due to the geometric time scaling and is also much more costly.
Basically this gives a huge advantage for the older industrials with already well researched BPs and makes the entry much more difficult for new players. Malcanis law applies once more. And I thought we were trying to avoid T2 BPO-like situations...


Yeah, that's bugged.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#79 - 2014-06-12 10:37:02 UTC
Silly me!

I haven't looked into research and invention but if I get this right, the outcome of a tech2 copy is based on the runs of the tech1 copy.

Now on Tranquility we have decryptors that give us better ME and or PE on the tech2 copy but they also give +x runs on copy.

Question is, are decryptors staying or do they go away?

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CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#80 - 2014-06-12 10:44:02 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Silly me!

I haven't looked into research and invention but if I get this right, the outcome of a tech2 copy is based on the runs of the tech1 copy.

Now on Tranquility we have decryptors that give us better ME and or PE on the tech2 copy but they also give +x runs on copy.

Question is, are decryptors staying or do they go away?


Decryptors stay, they're likely not getting a balance pass just yet so the balance will be rather skewed for a few months.