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[Crius] Research feedback

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Author
Cpt Diggerdoo
Green Nuns of the Revolution
#41 - 2014-06-11 00:18:20 UTC
Graviton Reactor Unit BPO on Tranq at ME15 requires:

Titanium Carbide [8]
Fermionic Condensates [2]

(Same amount is required as a ME1, both of these are currently at a perfect ME level)

Yet on SISI the same ME15 BPO shows as +10%ME and the ME1 BPO shows as a +5%ME, each of these require:

Titanium Carbide [9]
Fermionic Condensates [2]

tl;dr: The carbide mineral amounts required have increased between sisi/tranq and the ME level does not seem to have any impact on these new figures
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#42 - 2014-06-11 00:18:57 UTC
The invention changes are interesting. Less messing around with ridiculous numbers of BPCs is a good thing (I have over 5000 at my invention hub and that only services two characters). Best is the change favoring multiple run ship BPCs.

Question, when does the partly-used BPC get returned? At the commencement of the job or the conclusion? (In other words, can a single 10 run Vexor BPC be used for 10 simultaneous Ishtar invention jobs, or would they need to be end-to-end?)


Secondly, the increased material coefficient of 5/3 for t2 is going to break the market for expensive T2 products (HACs and larger) as badly as the increased material increases broke production of Brutix hulls. The present cost to build an Ishtar is not 150% of baseline materials, it is either 130% and ~1.6 Incognito Accelerants, or 120% and ~3.2 Incognito Process. This is being increased to ~150%, a big jump.

Ishtars will be sorted out fast because demand is so high, but I do not expect we will see other ships buildable for a long time.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Plexoro
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2014-06-11 01:42:13 UTC
I could be wrong, but my manufacturing jobs seem to be impacting my research job limit. I have the skills to start 10 manufacturing jobs and 10 research jobs. When I started 1 manufacturing job, I could only start 9 research jobs.

When I canceled some of the research jobs and started another manufacturing job, I found I could have no more than 8 research jobs.
Tavaz
Veldspar Industries
#44 - 2014-06-11 02:36:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Tavaz
Is there any logic behind the significantly reduced build times on T2 products? Coupled with the higher baseline TE level, and most 10 run blueprints last less than several hours instead of multiple days on the production lines (some, like large ammo last less than a day instead of weeks).

Is anyone else worried about the lowered times leading to massively reduced margins on most products? Part of why much of the T2 market maintains solid margins (unlike their T1 counterparts) is because they take time to build. If you take that time component out of the picture, you're left with a flood of supply against the same demand currently experienced on live.
mufasa73
Universalis Imperium
The Bastion
#45 - 2014-06-11 03:19:44 UTC
Unable to research new blueprints (not yet a singleton).
Quote:

Unable to install job due to the following reasons:
The job cost has changed

Error.MISMATCH_COST (206204, 4443)
Throwaway Sam Atild
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2014-06-11 04:52:23 UTC
Tavaz wrote:
Is there any logic behind the significantly reduced build times on T2 products? Coupled with the higher baseline TE level, and most 10 run blueprints last less than several hours instead of multiple days on the production lines (some, like large ammo last less than a day instead of weeks).

Is anyone else worried about the lowered times leading to massively reduced margins on most products? Part of why much of the T2 market maintains solid margins (unlike their T1 counterparts) is because they take time to build. If you take that time component out of the picture, you're left with a flood of supply against the same demand currently experienced on live.


I am also worried about lowered times leading to massively reduced margins on most modules. It's nice to have someone else make me feel less like a crazy person.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#47 - 2014-06-11 07:55:42 UTC
Throwaway Sam Atild wrote:
Tavaz wrote:
Is there any logic behind the significantly reduced build times on T2 products? Coupled with the higher baseline TE level, and most 10 run blueprints last less than several hours instead of multiple days on the production lines (some, like large ammo last less than a day instead of weeks).

Is anyone else worried about the lowered times leading to massively reduced margins on most products? Part of why much of the T2 market maintains solid margins (unlike their T1 counterparts) is because they take time to build. If you take that time component out of the picture, you're left with a flood of supply against the same demand currently experienced on live.


I am also worried about lowered times leading to massively reduced margins on most modules. It's nice to have someone else make me feel less like a crazy person.


That is of course completely intentional as you don't need to have big margins. You are not PVPing; meaning you are not risking anything and therefor don't need big rewards. Completely in line with the Risk vs. Reward mantra. Roll

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Chris Thiesere
IonTek LLC
#48 - 2014-06-11 08:43:54 UTC
The new max research times seem a little over the top.

Example: Abbadon
From ME0 to ME10 it shows 2453 days (about 6! years!). Given i only have Metallurgy 4, i can shove off another 5% it still is way to long for newer players.

Someone who starts manufacturing after crius could never hope to match someone who started before and got their blueprint converted to new ME10. You talked about difficulties with the NPE on Fanfest, please look at this again, or you would basically recreate a new form of T2 blueprints for everyone that started manufacturing before crius. Manufacturing should be decided by proper production lineup, logistics and skill. Not luck with your starting date of playing eve.
probag Bear
Xiong Offices
#49 - 2014-06-11 08:59:26 UTC  |  Edited by: probag Bear
Tavaz wrote:
Is there any logic behind the significantly reduced build times on T2 products? Coupled with the higher baseline TE level, and most 10 run blueprints last less than several hours instead of multiple days on the production lines (some, like large ammo last less than a day instead of weeks).

Is anyone else worried about the lowered times leading to massively reduced margins on most products? Part of why much of the T2 market maintains solid margins (unlike their T1 counterparts) is because they take time to build. If you take that time component out of the picture, you're left with a flood of supply against the same demand currently experienced on live.


To use your example: large ammo, specifically Void L because it's the first thing that came to mind.

Void L production in Rubicon/Kronos is severely manufacturing-heavy. You need to perform 30 seconds of invention and 35 minutes of copying for each hour of manufacturing.

CCP Greyscale's design goal was to make all T2 manufacturing require roughly a 1:1 MSlots:SSlots ratio, which is what you get out of fully-trained characters. It also means all items can be ordered in a logical "rank" system. See this thread for more details.

Most T2 items were kept at roughly the same TTM. Large T2 ammo was apparently not. Do remember to note when looking at other items, that invention+copying time matters just as much as manufacturing time for T2 production.
Aluka 7th
#50 - 2014-06-11 08:59:51 UTC
ME21 PE8 T2 BPO was converted to 10%/18% BUT its BPC was converted to 10%/20%.
Throwaway Sam Atild
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#51 - 2014-06-11 09:18:45 UTC
probag Bear wrote:


Most T2 items were kept at roughly the same TTM. Large T2 ammo was apparently not. Do remember to note when looking at other items, that invention+copying time matters just as much as manufacturing time for T2 production.


To clarify: T2 items up to around cruiser size saw a significant TTM reduction. More than 4x the current end to end times in some cases. Some of this is limited by a persons willingness to do installs throughout the day, a lot like the current T2 drone market is. The majority of TTM expansion occurred beginning around T2 Cruiser size. So I would say that they were not kept roughly the same. The changes in TTM also weren't clearly explained, they just seem to sort have occurred as a consequence of the rank system.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#52 - 2014-06-11 09:52:48 UTC
Copying doesn't seem to work:

Quote:
Unable to install job due to the following reasons:
Insufficient funds to pay job cost
The job cost has changed
The facility tax rates have changed

Error.ACCOUNT_FUNDS (0.0, 259)
Error.MISMATCH_COST (2877, 235)
Error.MISMATCH_TAX (288, 24)


Skills are definitely there, funds are also there, I am in the same station as the copy slot.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#53 - 2014-06-11 09:56:33 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Question, when does the partly-used BPC get returned? At the commencement of the job or the conclusion? (In other words, can a single 10 run Vexor BPC be used for 10 simultaneous Ishtar invention jobs, or would they need to be end-to-end?)


When the job completes, so no you can't use the same 10 run blueprint for 10 simultaneous jobs.

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones

CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#54 - 2014-06-11 09:57:23 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Copying doesn't seem to work:

Quote:
Unable to install job due to the following reasons:
Insufficient funds to pay job cost
The job cost has changed
The facility tax rates have changed

Error.ACCOUNT_FUNDS (0.0, 259)
Error.MISMATCH_COST (2877, 235)
Error.MISMATCH_TAX (288, 24)


Skills are definitely there, funds are also there, I am in the same station as the copy slot.


Mismatch is a known issue and should be fixed with an update today. I am looking into the account funds error. Is this a corporation or personal job? If it is a corp job try changing your default wallet division?

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones

Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#55 - 2014-06-11 10:22:11 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Copying doesn't seem to work:

Quote:
Unable to install job due to the following reasons:
Insufficient funds to pay job cost
The job cost has changed
The facility tax rates have changed

Error.ACCOUNT_FUNDS (0.0, 259)
Error.MISMATCH_COST (2877, 235)
Error.MISMATCH_TAX (288, 24)


Skills are definitely there, funds are also there, I am in the same station as the copy slot.


Mismatch is a known issue and should be fixed with an update today. I am looking into the account funds error. Is this a corporation or personal job? If it is a corp job try changing your default wallet division?


Personal job, I think. I wouldn't even know how to install a corp job on this station (No corp office in Nererut) or with the new interface. Ugh

Personal wallet has 68M, the standard corp wallet (if it was a corp job has 1.7B.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#56 - 2014-06-11 10:40:44 UTC
peroxide chase wrote:
Went to see how the changes impacted existing T2 BPO's and it looks really wrong(only checked with an ishtar)?


first screen shot shows : http://i.imgur.com/FUzC34k.jpg
-TL/newPL is showing greater than 10, build time over 40% higher than live(unless t2 production time across the board are being increased)
- verified above with other T2 BPOS such as Berserker II BPO, its build time is under its copy time, seems like TE is on a 1-20 scale and not 1-10? build times are also higher than live.
-Copy time is not 80% less than build time, is greater than build times.
-max copy's is set to one for ships, intentional limit? all t2 module,ammo and drone BPO's are set to 10.

second screenshot: http://i.imgur.com/k9mtAln.jpg
- all material requirement are roughly 50% higher than live, is this related to the 1.5x change, will it apply to BPO's?
- not all materials are represented, nocxium got left out.


Showinfo is not accurate right now.

Throwaway Sam Atild wrote:
Spun up SISI and tried to invent out of a design lab. I wasn't able to select an output, or none came up. Was using 10mn afterburner bpc, as I had some lieing around. All mats in the appropriate slot, and everything blue up to the end. Might just be user error, but if so, the system is pretty non-intuitive.

Past that, I see that having the actual TTM in front of me confirms my maths on the matter. Module TTM is getting a huge shrink. So while the interface changes seem positive and intuitive, the incentive to actually build modules is probably going to disappear!

I really hope you guys will take another look at what you're doing to the amount of work available globally before finalizing the numbers.

Something like multiplying module demand at market (which shouldn't be affected by changes) by the TTM hours. I really don't think it makes sense for my small production corporation to be able to supply all of the adaptive invul II's used in the entire game without breaking a sweat... I think concerns of a labor shortage aren't going to be very well founded, considering that any shortage of labor will pump up the pay-check for builders and create a natural incentive for more to enter the field.

At the very least, please feel open to liberally revisiting TTM and changing it aggressively as needed. Its my opinion that the TTM stat is going to be the most directly linked to the amount of people who use production in New Eden, and that with the Crius changes you've got it tuned down to 3. Pump that sucker up to 11!


Can you explain your math working here?

Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
The invention changes are interesting. Less messing around with ridiculous numbers of BPCs is a good thing (I have over 5000 at my invention hub and that only services two characters). Best is the change favoring multiple run ship BPCs.

Question, when does the partly-used BPC get returned? At the commencement of the job or the conclusion? (In other words, can a single 10 run Vexor BPC be used for 10 simultaneous Ishtar invention jobs, or would they need to be end-to-end?)


Secondly, the increased material coefficient of 5/3 for t2 is going to break the market for expensive T2 products (HACs and larger) as badly as the increased material increases broke production of Brutix hulls. The present cost to build an Ishtar is not 150% of baseline materials, it is either 130% and ~1.6 Incognito Accelerants, or 120% and ~3.2 Incognito Process. This is being increased to ~150%, a big jump.

Ishtars will be sorted out fast because demand is so high, but I do not expect we will see other ships buildable for a long time.


The T2 materials have been increased by too much, that's being fixed (as noted in the first post).

Chris Thiesere wrote:
The new max research times seem a little over the top.

Example: Abbadon
From ME0 to ME10 it shows 2453 days (about 6! years!). Given i only have Metallurgy 4, i can shove off another 5% it still is way to long for newer players.

Someone who starts manufacturing after crius could never hope to match someone who started before and got their blueprint converted to new ME10. You talked about difficulties with the NPE on Fanfest, please look at this again, or you would basically recreate a new form of T2 blueprints for everyone that started manufacturing before crius. Manufacturing should be decided by proper production lineup, logistics and skill. Not luck with your starting date of playing eve.


Yup, something's wrong here.

Ereshgikal wrote:
Ereshgikal wrote:
To check if the numbers on Sisi are roughly correct I took my ME 10 Coercer on Sisi and compared it with TQ numbers today.

http://i.imgur.com/AQS0tXl.png

Seems like my ME 10 Coercer consumes more material than an old ME 0 that had 10% waste. :D



Uhm, the BPO shows the numbers above, BUT the new UI shows the correct amount of consumed materials when taking ME into account. So maybe it is down to "show info" giving old info? :)


Yes, showinfo isn't updated yet.

[quote=Qoi]ME/TE Research Times are extremely wrong, a rank 1 Blueprint currently takes 38 days to fully research, instead of 3. (I also understand what is going wrong, basically you are adding the numbers, both in terms of runs (instead of subtracting them) and in terms of levels (instead of only taking the number for the highest research level), which then produces some extremely big numbers) The research time for ME 0% -> ME 1% or TE 0% -> TE 2% is calculated correctly though and exactly as described in greyscale's draft 4 CSV file, only higher run numbers are broken.

Checks against the account balance are always done against the active corp wallet, even if you are doing personal research.

You can't drag & drop blueprints into the industry...
Velicitia
XS Tech
#57 - 2014-06-11 12:12:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Confirming some BPOs (Orca, Freighters, other capitals) are literally perfect at MEs between 6 and 8, which got converted to ME9 post patch. This results in them being worse than current ME1.

to get back that 1 unit of waste is 1 year, 2 months, 20 days (give or take a few days) of research (on top of approximately 10+ months to get to current perfect ME), at a cost of 34 billion ISK (in NPC station).

Can you please take a look at these edge-case BPOs?

Details:
CURRENT -- ORCA, ME6 BPO, ME 5 skill

Part|Base|with Waste
Capital Capacitor Battery|8|8
Capital Cargo Bay|34|34
Capital Computer System|6|6
Capital Construction Parts|14|14
Capital Corporate Hangar Bay|4|4
Capital Sensor Cluster|4|4
Capital Ship Maintenance Bay|6|6

ME 2 BPO

Part|Base|with Waste
Capital Capacitor Battery|8|9
Capital Cargo Bay|34|35
Capital Computer System|6|7
Capital Construction Parts|14|15
Capital Corporate Hangar Bay|4|4
Capital Sensor Cluster|4|4
Capital Ship Maintenance Bay|6|6

ME 1 BPO

Part|Base|with Waste
Capital Capacitor Battery|8|8
Capital Cargo Bay|34|36
Capital Computer System|6|6
Capital Construction Parts|14|15
Capital Corporate Hangar Bay|4|4
Capital Sensor Cluster|4|4
Capital Ship Maintenance Bay|6|6

ME0 BPO
Part|Base|with Waste
Capital Capacitor Battery|8|9
Capital Cargo Bay|34|37
Capital Computer System|6|7
Capital Construction Parts|14|15
Capital Corporate Hangar Bay|4|4
Capital Sensor Cluster|4|4
Capital Ship Maintenance Bay|6|7


CRUIS/SISI:

(this is in the "install job" window)

Part|Number
Capital Capacitor Battery|9
Capital Cargo Bay|35
Capital Computer System|7
Capital Construction Parts|15
Capital Corporate Hangar Bay|4
Capital Sensor Cluster|4
Capital Ship Maintenance Bay|7

(edit for spelling, and clarity)

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#58 - 2014-06-11 15:14:13 UTC
Yeah, research times are completely broken.

2 years to research Capital Trimarks to ME10%

1 year to research Large Trimarks to ME10%.

Show info is indeed broken. Or the conversion calculations broke.

Also getting the insufficient funds error.

On the long research times, research time is limited to 30 days max. Having those insane long times, and even sane but still longish times, are not possible.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

DoToo Foo
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2014-06-11 15:33:11 UTC  |  Edited by: DoToo Foo
Not sure if we are meant to have 'nice' error messages yet or not.

This is not my idea of a nice error message; Useful perhaps and I know what I am doing.


Unable to install job due to the following reasons:
RUN_LENGTH

Error.RUN_LENGTH (6260800.5, 2592000)


edit: found the slider

http://foo-eve.blogspot.com.au/

CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#60 - 2014-06-11 15:50:26 UTC
Research time has some confirmed math kinks, looking into them.

Better error messages will ofc be forthcoming!