These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Test Server Feedback

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Crius] Research feedback

First post First post
Author
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#81 - 2014-06-12 10:46:29 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
elitatwo wrote:
Silly me!

I haven't looked into research and invention but if I get this right, the outcome of a tech2 copy is based on the runs of the tech1 copy.

Now on Tranquility we have decryptors that give us better ME and or PE on the tech2 copy but they also give +x runs on copy.

Question is, are decryptors staying or do they go away?


Decryptors stay, they're likely not getting a balance pass just yet so the balance will be rather skewed for a few months.


Okay thank you!

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

TigerXtrm
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2014-06-12 11:02:18 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
TigerXtrm wrote:
I'll ask this here again since it's primarily a research issue and maybe a UI thing.

Why is a reduction of something indicated with a plus sign and an increase of something indicated with a minus sign? Surely it should be the other way around? I'm trying to come up with a logical train of thought to end up at the current system but I'm having a really really hard time.


Which bits specifically are you referring to here?


Basically the indicators that show level of research on a blueprint. But specifically the way they are displayed in the industry window.

http://imgur.com/DzOvJyP

The two research indicators to the right of the blueprint. The first one indicates a reduction in production time. But this reduction is shown to be +20%. How does +20% become something positive?

Same thing for the material efficiency. The way anyone random player would read this is that it ADDS to the production time and materials instead of reduces. It's very confusing.

From the related dev blog:

Quote:
Blueprint research will then be moved to a ten-step system. Each step of ME research will reduce material requirements on that blueprint by 1%, and each step of TE research will reduce manufacturing time on that blueprint by 2%. These values will be displayed as their actual percentages, rather than their step numbers, so a blueprint that has been researched six times in each will show as ME 6% and TE 12%.


So a blueprint researched to level 10 has a 10% reduction in material. Why is this reduction not simply shown as a blue -10% in the industry window, and a red +4% in the case of T2 BPC's?

Also I agree with a comment made a few posts back, switch around the TE and ME indicators so that ME is on top. It's the most important value out of the two.

My YouTube Channel - EVE Tutorials & other game related things!

My Website - Blogs, Livestreams & Forums

CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#83 - 2014-06-12 11:51:00 UTC
TigerXtrm wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
TigerXtrm wrote:
I'll ask this here again since it's primarily a research issue and maybe a UI thing.

Why is a reduction of something indicated with a plus sign and an increase of something indicated with a minus sign? Surely it should be the other way around? I'm trying to come up with a logical train of thought to end up at the current system but I'm having a really really hard time.


Which bits specifically are you referring to here?


Basically the indicators that show level of research on a blueprint. But specifically the way they are displayed in the industry window.

http://imgur.com/DzOvJyP

The two research indicators to the right of the blueprint. The first one indicates a reduction in production time. But this reduction is shown to be +20%. How does +20% become something positive?

Same thing for the material efficiency. The way anyone random player would read this is that it ADDS to the production time and materials instead of reduces. It's very confusing.

From the related dev blog:

Quote:
Blueprint research will then be moved to a ten-step system. Each step of ME research will reduce material requirements on that blueprint by 1%, and each step of TE research will reduce manufacturing time on that blueprint by 2%. These values will be displayed as their actual percentages, rather than their step numbers, so a blueprint that has been researched six times in each will show as ME 6% and TE 12%.


So a blueprint researched to level 10 has a 10% reduction in material. Why is this reduction not simply shown as a blue -10% in the industry window, and a red +4% in the case of T2 BPC's?

Also I agree with a comment made a few posts back, switch around the TE and ME indicators so that ME is on top. It's the most important value out of the two.


Passed this on to UI people, thanks for the input :)
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#84 - 2014-06-12 12:06:49 UTC
Greyscale, some suggestions for the future of decryptors.

Note that I am heavily invested in decryptors currently (mostly Parity and Symmetry) due to my perceptions of the presently planned changes and their impact. I'll try to make the feedback unbiased, but you are hearing from someone who has 5% of their NAV invested in Symmetry decryptors now.


Decryptors currently have two throughput stats (+max runs, most important on ships/rigs, and +% invention chance, equally valuable everywhere). Consolidate these to one in future.
There is the %materials stat. This is the dominant factor in pre-Crius production (it's much more important than anything else) but loses about 85% of its value with Crius. Increase the importance of this in future, at least to the point that Process decryptors are the best choice for Marauders again.
Then there is the % production time stat. Relevant but not important now, trivial value after Crius. This should be increased numerically by a significant factor.
Finally, I think your planned rebalance should add a multiplier for invention job time, and at least one decryptor that prevents you consuming a BPC at all for the job.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Qoi
Exert Force
#85 - 2014-06-12 12:19:15 UTC
The Decryptors who previously gave a + X TE bonus now give a "+ X % Time Efficiency" bonus, so with decryptors you can now also have odd numbers for the TE stat? (With researching you can only get even numbers)

Is this a bug?

http://eve-industry.org

mynnna
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#86 - 2014-06-12 12:54:06 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Greyscale, some suggestions for the future of decryptors.

Note that I am heavily invested in decryptors currently (mostly Parity and Symmetry) due to my perceptions of the presently planned changes and their impact. I'll try to make the feedback unbiased, but you are hearing from someone who has 5% of their NAV invested in Symmetry decryptors now.


Decryptors currently have two throughput stats (+max runs, most important on ships/rigs, and +% invention chance, equally valuable everywhere). Consolidate these to one in future.
There is the %materials stat. This is the dominant factor in pre-Crius production (it's much more important than anything else) but loses about 85% of its value with Crius. Increase the importance of this in future, at least to the point that Process decryptors are the best choice for Marauders again.
Then there is the % production time stat. Relevant but not important now, trivial value after Crius. This should be increased numerically by a significant factor.
Finally, I think your planned rebalance should add a multiplier for invention job time, and at least one decryptor that prevents you consuming a BPC at all for the job.


I'm not sure I agree about your assessment of value for material and production stats (primarily out of concern for both replacing and stacking with teams), nor rolling +runs and +% success into a single stat, but I do find your suggestion for new stats interesting and I passed the whole post on. Big smile

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

Neo Hutt
#87 - 2014-06-12 12:58:39 UTC
I'm unable to start any research or copy job on SiSi:


POS:
Research:
Unable to install job due to the following reasons:
The job cost has changed

Error.MISMATCH_COST (19222, 17547)

Copy:
Unable to install job due to the following reasons:
FACILITY_ACTIVITY
The job cost has changed

Error.FACILITY_ACTIVITY (5,)
Error.MISMATCH_COST (24252790, 22140085)

=============

Station:
Research from corp hangar:
Unable to install job due to the following reasons:
FACILITY_ACTIVITY
The job cost has changed
The facility tax rates have changed

Error.FACILITY_ACTIVITY (4,)
Error.MISMATCH_COST (24252790, 22140085)
Error.MISMATCH_TAX (2425279, 2214009)

Research, personal job:
Unable to install job due to the following reasons:
The job cost has changed
The facility tax rates have changed

Error.MISMATCH_COST (23292, 21263)
Error.MISMATCH_TAX (2329, 2126)

Copy, personal job:
Unable to install job due to the following reasons:
The job cost has changed
The facility tax rates have changed

Error.MISMATCH_COST (23292, 21263)
Error.MISMATCH_TAX (2329, 2126)
Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#88 - 2014-06-12 13:06:28 UTC
Hmm, you know how you had Reference.SYSTEM showing the modification from the output value, which effectively meant that you could see the calculation of the job cost? Well I know that was a placeholder, but could you please put that back? Showing the silly system cost index bar tells you nothing. In fact please scrap that bar and replace it with a number and put the full job cost calculation in the tooltip.

Copying teams have material efficiency bonuses, surely a bug. Also the automatic filtering by selected blueprint seems not to be working for anything but manufacturing jobs.

Generally really liking the changes though, good job.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#89 - 2014-06-12 13:08:44 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
elitatwo wrote:
Silly me!

I haven't looked into research and invention but if I get this right, the outcome of a tech2 copy is based on the runs of the tech1 copy.

Now on Tranquility we have decryptors that give us better ME and or PE on the tech2 copy but they also give +x runs on copy.

Question is, are decryptors staying or do they go away?


Decryptors stay, they're likely not getting a balance pass just yet so the balance will be rather skewed for a few months.


yes cos that makes sense Shocked

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Atlanti IV
Galactic Conglomerate
#90 - 2014-06-12 13:09:16 UTC
I keep getting this facility error when attempting to do an invention job at a Design Laboratory

Facility Error
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#91 - 2014-06-12 13:12:05 UTC
Qoi wrote:
The Decryptors who previously gave a + X TE bonus now give a "+ X % Time Efficiency" bonus, so with decryptors you can now also have odd numbers for the TE stat? (With researching you can only get even numbers)

Is this a bug?


Not a bug.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#92 - 2014-06-12 13:40:38 UTC
Atlanti IV wrote:
I keep getting this facility error when attempting to do an invention job at a Design Laboratory

Facility Error


Interesting that the Outcome/put icon is the BPO icon, not the BPC icon.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Arana Mirelin
Te'Rava Industries
#93 - 2014-06-12 13:44:58 UTC
Lord Alex2 wrote:
I cannot invent warp scramblers http://i.imgur.com/7HN2he9.png am I doing something wrong?


I have encountered the same issue for 200mm autocannons and 10 MN afterburners. I believe on the ui thread that someone posted that 150mm autocannons had the same issue.
DoToo Foo
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#94 - 2014-06-12 13:59:52 UTC
Incorrect? Misleading? 'inventory location'

I am researching a blueprint that starts it's life off in Div 2, but on the jobs screen it shows up with an inventory location of the name of div 1.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/drrpahctlp0g98v/IncorrectInventoryLocation.png


Very fast job incorrectly claims it has no time.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6yqheilkm2f85d5/NoTimeJob.png
The antimatter Charge S blueprints show 00:00:00:00 time for it's duration, even though the job run 3 job takes several minutes they to research.

http://foo-eve.blogspot.com.au/

elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#95 - 2014-06-12 14:14:52 UTC
Harvey James wrote:

yes cos that makes sense Shocked


What do you mean?

I read the thread here and got concerned about decryptors because they didn't mention them in the devblogs and it seemed that the folks here didn't consider them.

So just to be thorough I asked about them. Better safe than sorry.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Vesan Terakol
Trollgrin Sadface
Dark Taboo
#96 - 2014-06-12 14:19:28 UTC
An issue i have with the research window is the output section - all this space for just E.G. 7% ? Why not give the actual numbers of resources that are altered in the process? I mean, the data is available in the game, why not show it?
Careby
#97 - 2014-06-12 16:52:57 UTC
A minor quibble about the layout of the invention UI.

Depending on what's being invented, sometimes the interface is at the top, and the decryptors are at the bottom. Other times vice versa. It threw me for a bit because I couldn't figure out why I couldn't select the decryptor, until I realized I was trying to change the interface.

Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#98 - 2014-06-12 17:04:01 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
TigerXtrm wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
TigerXtrm wrote:
I'll ask this here again since it's primarily a research issue and maybe a UI thing.

Why is a reduction of something indicated with a plus sign and an increase of something indicated with a minus sign? Surely it should be the other way around? I'm trying to come up with a logical train of thought to end up at the current system but I'm having a really really hard time.


Which bits specifically are you referring to here?


Basically the indicators that show level of research on a blueprint. But specifically the way they are displayed in the industry window.

http://imgur.com/DzOvJyP

The two research indicators to the right of the blueprint. The first one indicates a reduction in production time. But this reduction is shown to be +20%. How does +20% become something positive?

Same thing for the material efficiency. The way anyone random player would read this is that it ADDS to the production time and materials instead of reduces. It's very confusing.

From the related dev blog:

Quote:
Blueprint research will then be moved to a ten-step system. Each step of ME research will reduce material requirements on that blueprint by 1%, and each step of TE research will reduce manufacturing time on that blueprint by 2%. These values will be displayed as their actual percentages, rather than their step numbers, so a blueprint that has been researched six times in each will show as ME 6% and TE 12%.


So a blueprint researched to level 10 has a 10% reduction in material. Why is this reduction not simply shown as a blue -10% in the industry window, and a red +4% in the case of T2 BPC's?

Also I agree with a comment made a few posts back, switch around the TE and ME indicators so that ME is on top. It's the most important value out of the two.


Passed this on to UI people, thanks for the input :)


I think he has a good point. The Teams have negative sign modifiers to show reductions in materials and time required. At the very least, they should match each other. And I think a negative sign to show a reduction is more intuitive.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Thenin
Don't feed the Trolls Inc.
Eleven Signs Network
#99 - 2014-06-12 17:55:43 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
MailDeadDrop wrote:
Does that mean that, exempting decryptor effects, it is no longer possible to get multi-run T2 BPCs from invention? Currently (Kronos) max-run T1 module BPCs yield 10-run T2 BPCs. If invention only yields 1-run T2 BPCs then there will be *many* more invention jobs in Crius. Am I misunderstanding something?

MDD


All invention jobs will spit out a max-run blueprint. Sorry, should've mentioned that, lots of plates spinning today :)


Tried to invent some cap recharger II today. I used the old max run copies, they have 300 runs but max runs is only 100...
After the Invention there are only 1 run T2 bpcs coming out.
is that intended or a bug with old BPCs?
Qoi
Exert Force
#100 - 2014-06-12 18:11:56 UTC
I can't invent Hobgoblin Blueprints in a Design Lab (FACILITY_ACTIVITY error)

When i invent Antimatter Charge S -> Null S, I get out a single run T2 BPC, I was expecting a 10 run copy.

http://eve-industry.org