These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev Blog: Tiptoe Through the Tooltips

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
asteroidjas
Rothschild's Sewage and Septic Sucking Services
The Possum Lodge
#1001 - 2014-05-27 12:54:40 UTC
You want to know how we want it to function?

Revert back to the old system, compare the actual functionality it had, quick, concise, useful info. Then build a new system similar to that if you must. But what was wrong with the old system? Oh thats right, it wasn't redundant enough...so just make the old system tell us that stargates are stargates and stations are stations. Problem solved.
Eurynome Mangeiri
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1002 - 2014-05-27 13:08:34 UTC
Rommiee wrote:
Othran wrote:
Here we go with the usual CCP arrogance - we know better than the thousands of you who don't like something so you can all **** off if you don't like it.

Well I'm giving serious consideration to doing just that.



Over the last few years I have been getting more and more p1ssed off by CCP’s attitude.

They promised a change in their outlook towards their customers after Incarna, looking to be a “better and humbler CCP”. That lasted about a month and turned out to be a load of crap.

I love this game, it’s just a shame that CCP attempt to destroy it, time after time with no concept of how much damage they are doing and with no will whatsoever to change their ways. Having a “We know best and screw you if you don’t like it” attitude really does not help. At all. Seriously.

I have long since stopped posting on the test server threads, as there is really no point. They don’t care about feedback, or they would listen to the customers. Threads like this have been common in recent years, but apart from some cosmetic changes to give the impression they are listening, nothing major gets changed or reverted.

The Unified Inventory was a prime example. Despite 2 separate threads covering hundreds of pages of issues and problems, they brought it in anyway and took 6 months of “Iterations” to get it half-way decent.

The point is fast approaching when I will just not be able to put up with this CCP crap any longer. I used to pay for 5 accounts, a year in advance (cash not plex), but am now using 3-month periods instead, in preparation for the inevitable straw that will be too much to bear. I suspect that I may not be the only one.

i feel exactly the same.

i used to run 4 accounts, all paid on a year plan with $$

since odyssey, i disabled 2 accounts (the exploration one, guess why...) and the 2 remaining were on a 3 month plan.
then they announced kronos, i disabled the 3rd and the now only one remaining is burning through my plex stack...

now, i stil have 2 remaining, but this account will probably not even use them, i reactivated last weekend, for a major OP, which was cancelled 20 minutes in because the comms where just overfilled with "**** those tooltips" "Can't Code Properly strike again" and so on....

and i damn agree with that, this game CAN'T be played anymore.

so be it, my last account will stop soon, and if by then those tooltips are still there, won't renew.

can't handle CCP's attitude anymore, no more money for them
Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
#1003 - 2014-05-27 13:49:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Rommiee
Kenneth Endashi wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Adding my voice to the angry throng.

The only time I find the tool-tips not annoying is when the client is closed.

They really should have a level slider:
* None.
* Minimal - stuff everybody needs, like capacitor level, ammo loaded, etc.
* Informational - module mouse-over.
* Verbose - everything else (default).


I've read all 50 pages, and this is the best idea I've heard so far.



If we have to have this pile of crap, then this, along with a delay slider.
Kale Freeman
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1004 - 2014-05-27 17:39:46 UTC
Where should we post suggestions about the actual information being shown on the tooltip in the interest of making tooltips more useful?

For example, on the Item Information window, on the variations tab. Currently the tooltip shows the description text for the variations. This is often identical, mostly useless

IMO when I'm on the variations tab there are 3 things I'm interested in.

1. The meta level of each variation
2. The fitting requirements (cpu & power) of each variation
3. Do I have the required skills to use it

This would be a lot more useful that the description text for each item. Is there a thread where we can make these sort of suggestions?
Gaijin Lanis
Gallente Federation
#1005 - 2014-05-27 17:44:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Gaijin Lanis
Othran wrote:
Here we go with the usual CCP arrogance - we know better than the thousands of you who don't like something so you can all **** off if you don't like it.

Well I'm giving serious consideration to doing just that.

This sort of "**** the customer, we know best" bullshit is endemic in most Scandinavian companies (like Nokia used to be) and is the reason most of them fail (sooner or later) outside their home countries.



To be fair, their justification is the new player experience.

For, in their collective mind, the new player will see the wonderfully pretty but slow and laggy fade effects on tooltips that provide redundant/useless information and think "everyone were wrong! this aint space spreadsheets at all!"

The problem with this is the first and foremost priority when designing a UI is responsiveness. Responsiveness simply dwarfs all other concerns. For if the UI isn't responsive, nothing else matters. Once a responsive UI is designed, quality of information is the next highest priority. The new tooltip systems fails on this front as well. The absolute final and least important by an order of several magnitudes is aesthetics. And, I'll admit, the new tooltips are very pretty. A+ on aesthetics. The problem is aesthetics were only worth 3% of your grade and you didn't even show up for the responsiveness and informational assessments.

That said, Mouse "prediction:" great. No one argues this. If we could get the right click menu to appear instantly regardless of random latency issues, we'd be golden on that aspect of the UI. An inarguable step forward. The tooltips were a large number of steps backwards.



Kale Freeman wrote:
Where should we post suggestions about the actual information being shown on the tooltip in the interest of making tooltips more useful?

For example, on the Item Information window, on the variations tab. Currently the tooltip shows the description text for the variations. This is often identical, mostly useless

IMO when I'm on the variations tab there are 3 things I'm interested in.

1. The meta level of each variation
2. The fitting requirements (cpu & power) of each variation
3. Do I have the required skills to use it

This would be a lot more useful that the description text for each item. Is there a thread where we can make these sort of suggestions?

The variations tab is already arranged by order of meta level, lowest at the top. Otherwise, agreed 100%.

The above was written and posted with nothing but love in my heart for all.
Arec Bardwin
#1006 - 2014-05-27 20:31:46 UTC
Jimmy Prophet wrote:
So in space brackets are still useless and if we wish to use them like we used to we have to have the inflight tooltips on still. However the inspace tooltips you now have to scroll still, it blocks the screen with a black box (this still needs to be made more transparent if it is to be kept) and also it truncates the infomation on clusters of belts so you can't see which is which.

Please bring back the old brackets in space so they are useable and if you really want the more seasoned players to use the inflight tooltips make the box more transparent.

Also still having a problem on when the delay is set to max if i hover and wait for a tooltip it displays but when i move to a different object it then displays the tooltip instantly.

It is all getting very frustrating now and there is no updates on if these problems are going to be addressed or just swept under the carpet and left as is. Suggestions to us as users from you guy's to how you think the problems could be solved and getting feedback from users before crippling game play even more and then spending ages with minor unhelpful changes.

Communicating with the user base will get you more assistance than complaints. Help us the end users help you.

We want to play the game that is why we are here. But useless unusable and distracting walls of text popping up all over the gameplay and in the way deter us from playing especially when being told it isn't working that it is just left in instead of going back to the beginning and trying it all over again. It is more helpful than adding and adding and adding more and more gumpf to solve a p
Deserves a quote.

Also CCP; this mess is exactly the way to go if you want to finish off your only cash income at the moment.
Eurynome Mangeiri
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1007 - 2014-05-27 23:48:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Eurynome Mangeiri
Gaijin Lanis wrote:



To be fair, their justification is the new player experience.

For, in their collective mind, the new player will see the wonderfully pretty but slow and laggy fade effects on tooltips that provide redundant/useless information and think "everyone were wrong! this aint space spreadsheets at all!"

The problem with this is the first and foremost priority when designing a UI is responsiveness. Responsiveness simply dwarfs all other concerns. For if the UI isn't responsive, nothing else matters. Once a responsive UI is designed, quality of information is the next highest priority. The new tooltip systems fails on this front as well. The absolute final and least important by an order of several magnitudes is aesthetics. And, I'll admit, the new tooltips are very pretty. A+ on aesthetics. The problem is aesthetics were only worth 3% of your grade and you didn't even show up for the responsiveness and informational assessments.


the issue is that beside making the game unplayable for the current players, it even FAILS at helping the new players, because the thing get in the way, and still gives LESS information in the best case, and most of the time either confuse or overwhelm them with needless information (check a few pages back, they put a full WALL OF TEXT as tooltip, with 2 paragraphs in it!)
edit: found the famous tooltip, see for yourself: 4 paragraphs it is!
http://i.imgur.com/ShXPU58.png

this is beyond ridiculous, the tooltip update FAILS in EVERY of it goals, AND wrecks the whole game in doing so.

i can't understand how it is possible that the person(s) in charge of the team who came up with that FAILED to stop them, or at least were not at their neck the second it hits TQ for the "feature" to be rolled back ASAP.

this is a lack of competence at best, sabotage at worst.

now the joke has already been pushed too far.

ROLL THIS BACK NOW!


also , WHERE THE HELL is the CSM?
is this not the kind of things they are supposed to stand for?

as far as i can tell, over 50 pages and no word of them on such a critical subject?
are we to assume they, like CCP, never undock or start the client?
Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
#1008 - 2014-05-28 06:50:13 UTC
Eurynome Mangeiri wrote:
[quote=Gaijin Lanis]also , WHERE THE HELL is the CSM?
is this not the kind of things they are supposed to stand for?

as far as i can tell, over 50 pages and no word of them on such a critical subject?
are we to assume they, like CCP, never undock or start the client?



CSM 8 was the most ineffectual and pointless bunch since the whole system was introduced.

I thought that the new Council could not possibly lower themselves to that standard, but sadly this seems to be the case.
Oraac Ensor
#1009 - 2014-05-28 08:01:34 UTC
Eurynome Mangeiri wrote:
Gaijin Lanis wrote:

To be fair, their justification is the new player experience.

the issue is that beside making the game unplayable for the current players, it even FAILS at helping the new players, because the thing get in the way, and still gives LESS information in the best case, and most of the time either confuse or overwhelm them with needless information (check a few pages back, they put a full WALL OF TEXT as tooltip, with 2 paragraphs in it!)
edit: found the famous tooltip, see for yourself: 4 paragraphs it is!
http://i.imgur.com/ShXPU58.png

this is beyond ridiculous, the tooltip update FAILS in EVERY of it goals, AND wrecks the whole game in doing so.

i can't understand how it is possible that the person(s) in charge of the team who came up with that FAILED to stop them, or at least were not at their neck the second it hits TQ for the "feature" to be rolled back ASAP.

this is a lack of competence at best, sabotage at worst.

now the joke has already been pushed too far.

The most laughable aspect of the whole debacle is that according to CCP Rise's NPE presentation at Fanfest the new tooltips are supposed to be the first step in the process of moving away from text-based learning!
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#1010 - 2014-05-28 09:48:33 UTC
Where is the CSM?

Watching, and not contributing to screams of rage, as they're counter productive. As with the other threads where you've asked the same question.

Changes have happened to the system since rollout of Tooltips.

For example, there's a slider which adjusts the delay now.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
#1011 - 2014-05-28 12:41:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Rommiee
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Where is the CSM?

Watching, and not contributing to screams of rage, as they're counter productive. As with the other threads where you've asked the same question.

Changes have happened to the system since rollout of Tooltips.

For example, there's a slider which adjusts the delay now.


My God, that is the most clueless comment I have seen in a long time. You have just confirmed how absolutely pointless this CSM is.


If you had bothered to read just a couple of pages of this thread you would realise that the sliders don’t even go halfway to solving this problem. As you have obviously missed 99% of what’s been said here, the point is that this crap should NOT have been rolled out in the first place, and the CSM did nothing to prevent it.

Do you even play the game, or did you just get elected to the CSM for the free Jollies to Iceland ?
Darkie Katelo
Offerings of Blood
#1012 - 2014-05-28 12:44:53 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Where is the CSM?

NOT Watching, and not contributing to screams of rage, as they're counter productive. As with the other threads where you've asked the same question.

Changes have happened to the system since rollout of Tooltips.

For example, there's a slider which adjusts the delay now.


People want the tooltips for brackets not to show, but the delay works for overview and cargo.
The strange thing, because of instant tooltip in space for brackets, and the delay in cargo for items, is very confusing.
The delay does not fix it. We dont want delay, we want customizable tooltips, and a OFF Button.
Darkie Katelo
Offerings of Blood
#1013 - 2014-05-28 14:05:48 UTC
Darkie Katelo wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Where is the CSM?

NOT Watching, and not contributing to screams of rage, as they're counter productive. As with the other threads where you've asked the same question.

Changes have happened to the system since rollout of Tooltips.

For example, there's a slider which adjusts the delay now.


People want the tooltips for brackets not to show, but the delay works for overview and cargo.
The strange thing, because of instant tooltip in space for brackets, and the delay in cargo for items, is very confusing.
The delay does not fix it. We dont want delay, we want customizable tooltips, and a OFF Button.


new patch, thing are the same.
We want the old system with brackets in space, the tool tip delays for brackets does not work.
let me put this to you in another words, the tool tip is there, just doesn display info, we want when we click a cluster, to see everything in that, and not in BIG BLACK BOX, that gives us lag and obscures the space.
Eurynome Mangeiri
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1014 - 2014-05-28 14:14:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Eurynome Mangeiri
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Where is the CSM?

Watching, and not contributing to screams of rage, as they're counter productive. As with the other threads where you've asked the same question.

Changes have happened to the system since rollout of Tooltips.

For example, there's a slider which adjusts the delay now.

well, when 90% off the ppl ask nicely and politely things, and get ignored, yes they tend to scream......

this is now 2 weeks since the thing is out, it is still broken, ppl still want it to get off, CCP did several (2,3?) updates, still no off option, the changes they made still doesn't solve the issue, and to top that, all we got after that is "duh what is wrong, what you want?" from the devs, when ALL the post are clearly stating what is wrong and what we want.

is this an acceptable behaviour? NO.

now, coming to the CSM, the reason you were elected is to represent us to CCP.

this mean that you shall (not should, SHALL) publicly announce your position on that subject, especially when CCP keep ignoring valid and constructive feedback and play dumb about it.

that's all we ask. but seems it's too much right?
you are watching but not contributing in counterproductive thread.....well, then tell me, tell US:

what productive thing did you do about that? are you pusshing fo CCP to listen to us? what is their answer? what mesure do you intend to take then?

but please, keep answering the way you do, we'll see where it goes.......

hint: this is not the attitude you should have....

also tell me again that the threads i'm writting in are not valid complain reason, with real issues....i dare you
Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
#1015 - 2014-05-28 14:39:19 UTC
The last Dev post was 2 days ago.....so the "ignore it and it will go away" phase is starting.

Awesome
Gaijin Lanis
Gallente Federation
#1016 - 2014-05-28 15:26:10 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Where is the CSM?

Watching, and not contributing to screams of rage, as they're counter productive. As with the other threads where you've asked the same question.
In your attempts to be magnanimous, you're being completely ineffective. Thumbs up.
Steve Ronuken wrote:


Changes have happened to the system since rollout of Tooltips.

For example, there's a slider which adjusts the delay now.
You mean the slider that basically amounts to the choice between delays on useful information from the 5 or 6 useful tooltips, delays due to frame drops due to unnecessary fade effects, or both? That wasn't exactly the most ideal solution to the problems with the new tool tip system, to say the least. Ideal solutions have been posted. Rollback is one, this is another, and many many more.

Or are you referring to the slider that delays the appearance of the "bracket list?" A feature which is just an unordered, obtrusive, truncated, unresponsive version of the overview window? Not exactly helping there either, as "off" or complete removal is the only real solution to that travesty. As whenever that thing shows up, I disperse it as quickly as possible, zoom in, and try to find a new camera anchor point. As scrolling through what can be hundreds of truncated meaningless unordered entries, five or six at a time, to find the bracket I was looking for, is not a useful feature to anyone. Functionally, the bracket list is nothing more than a huge sign that says "what the hell are you doing clicking in space? Learn to use the overview!" So I guess that can be an effective means of "non-textual learning."

The above was written and posted with nothing but love in my heart for all.
Hoshi Sorano
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1017 - 2014-05-28 19:59:14 UTC
Tau Phoenix wrote:
Or do you think that we are not intelligent enough to let us decide if we need this info?


Tau Phoenix wrote:
It seems you really are treating our requests with content and insulting our ability to use the information we already have in game.
(italics added for emphasis)

The word is "contempt"; I'll let you draw your own conclusions as to how this makes you appear.

Seriously, if you want to impress CCP (or anyone else) with your intelligence, I would highly recommend proofreading before posting. Barring that, please don't try using words that you don't know or understand. I think these tooltips are absolutely terrible, but you're not doing our argument any favors with this level of unintentional irony.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#1018 - 2014-05-28 20:41:43 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Where is the CSM?

Watching, and not contributing to screams of rage, as they're counter productive. As with the other threads where you've asked the same question.

Changes have happened to the system since rollout of Tooltips.

For example, there's a slider which adjusts the delay now.
Great post and I'm sure all those that voted for you, are now filled with pride at their choice.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Varesk
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1019 - 2014-05-28 21:37:02 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Where is the CSM?

Watching, and not contributing to screams of rage, as they're counter productive. As with the other threads where you've asked the same question.

Changes have happened to the system since rollout of Tooltips.

For example, there's a slider which adjusts the delay now.


wow you are the best example of why the CSM is a joke. please continue being silent on this issue that players, that you represent, hate.
Arec Bardwin
#1020 - 2014-05-28 22:05:14 UTC
Rommiee wrote:
The last Dev post was 2 days ago.....so the "ignore it and it will go away" phase is starting.

Awesome
Looks like it Cry