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Dev Blog: Tiptoe Through the Tooltips

First post First post
Author
Colman Dietmar
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#961 - 2014-05-23 20:21:00 UTC
Lidia Caderu wrote:
Lets add a skill which adds more tooltips


I know, but sometimes you actually want to see what this particular thing in the list actually is, not just see the first three words of its name, which usually don't even mean anything. And now you have to actually click it, then look in a completely different part of the screen to see the info.

And when you try to quickly click on a list of things in space, you'll accidently double click random stuff, which makes you approach it - messing up your alignment, movement speed etc. During combat it just gets you killed.

So there really needs to be a way to see what it is without clicking on it.
Josie solo
Singular Motives
#962 - 2014-05-23 23:39:45 UTC
Ive noticed another thing, the delay tooltips setting not only delays things like 'this is your cargo, its where your cargo goes' but also delays the tooltips on the fitting window.

Now this makes no sense, the information on the fitting window changes all the time, and is useful to know, but the hotkey for cargo doesnt. Why did you make it a blanket delay and not take into account the reason people want some information to pop up and not others?

Can you at least add in some kind of basic customization?

Darkie Katelo
Offerings of Blood
#963 - 2014-05-24 08:14:24 UTC
Darkie Katelo wrote:
Let me make it clear why i need a OFF button
My desktop with "ToolTips"
http://imgur.com/gWrU71m
My desktop without "ToolTips"
http://imgur.com/aQ6VKQB
That is the "ToolTip" for me in space, a BIG BLACK Sticky note with redundand information blocking my view for whats behind it.
Every new player learns this in tutorial, what is a Stargate, Station, ETC.
You consider us childs who dont know what are we doing in space. We do know what to do. Please for the sake of everything what is nice in this game, please give us a OFF BUTTON!!


Do I have to post this everyday?! Make the tooltips optional, give me a OFF button damn ******* tooltips.
Arec Bardwin
#964 - 2014-05-24 08:35:23 UTC
Alexis Nightwish wrote:

Please make it an option. Take a look at my previous, wonderful overview.

Now, look at the travesty it has become!

It's worthless now! Sad
This.
Tau Phoenix
Eternal Darkness.
The Initiative.
#965 - 2014-05-24 09:51:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Phoenix
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Yes this information is very suited for tooltips thank you.

Why even have tooltips here at all? I can open the item description and attributes very easily by clicking the little white circle with an i in it for info. And don't even tell me that someone might not know to do that, because if you've figured out how to use fitting management to the point of getting to this page then you definitely already know how to access info on an item, and even if you don't it's still pretty obvious that you can access it by either right clicking -> Show Info, or clicking the white circle i. I think double clicking also works but I'm not sure.


But the main point is, do you even have any clue what tooltips are for? Certainly not for the presentation of FOUR PARAGRAPHS. That's just absurd.



I can't agree enough with the comments posted in the quote above. It's like we are going around in circles here constantly having walls of text shoved in our face where we do not require it. As in the picture linked above, the question i have is 'Why post that tooltip stating the modules description?' If i wanted that i would simply press the info icon. It seems you really not addressing the issues the player base are identifying. This is worse than that annoying Microsoft paperclip that always tapped on your screen saying 'It looks like you're trying to type a letter'.

When looking at a fitting window the detailed description of the modules function is not needed and now you are blurring the lines between the fitting info screen and the item info screen. The fact that the description takes up so much room next to the fitting screen is also intrusive to our viewing area on screen. I posed in an earlier page that this game is becoming a 'text adventure' and it seems to be getting worse.

I commend the commitment CCP have shown to try and improve the UI and maybe make it easier for new players but please respect the long term players needs and not tar us all with the same requirements that you perceive new players would require, or even want.

And yes, ruddy big black boxes of text in space is intrusive, spoils the feel of the games. All info is space area should be plain text.
Tau Phoenix
Eternal Darkness.
The Initiative.
#966 - 2014-05-24 09:51:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Phoenix
Seems a double post happened, so i deleted the contents.
Josef Djugashvilis
#967 - 2014-05-24 10:55:25 UTC
Tiptoe Through the Tool-tips and Stomp All Over the Players.

So, when is the off button going to be provided as an option?

This is not a signature.

Eurynome Mangeiri
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#968 - 2014-05-24 11:27:48 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Tiptoe Through the Tool-tips and Stomp All Over the Players.

So, when is the off button going to be provided as an option?

unfortunately, probably never, this is how CCP listen to "player feedback"......


see the sensor overlay or the jump animation, they don't even care.

we are again struggling with some dev's pet project here so it'll stay even if this means lost sub cause it's bad.....
Davina Sienar
The Misinterpretation of Silence
#969 - 2014-05-24 13:29:21 UTC
Davina Sienar wrote:


everytime I klick to activate a weapon, now the info window for it flashes up without any delay
(and I set max delay on that new slider...)

bit annoying, realy





correction: its freakin annoying !

guess the delay is only to tell system to wait for loading the info, once its in cache it shows all stuff instantly

and the only thing that is realy delayed or lagged is that info I need INSTANTLY its that by hoovering mouse over anything in Overview... it takes up to 2 sec till I get the popup usualy either me or the target is already in warp then....


baka
Sven Viko VIkolander
Allemannsrett
#970 - 2014-05-24 16:10:09 UTC
Here are a few more problems I've had with the tool tips / new brackets system, including some which help answer Karkur's question about what the problems with the bracket system is:

1) When I have the tracking camera on and I click a single object off in space--like a FW plex--my tracking camera shifts to that. Then, as I often want to do, I try to click that object (e.g. the complex). In the old system I would get a little non-invasive pop up that I could quickly hit warp to, but in the new system, whenever I click on that object it instead selects my ship. Here is an example: http://imgur.com/edit What I need to do instead is move my camera so that my ship is not in front of the object, then click the object, then click warp. When trying to follow someone quickly, this is very annoying and slows down my response time by a few seconds.

2) Another problem is that, on the old system, when you clicked on a celestial in a big cluster of celestial, the old list that pops up would stay up--I could move my mouse where ever and I would still have the list up. This was perfectly fine and very helpful since the list was not a cluster-f involving a giant box that I had to scroll down and read etc. Now, however, the box that does pop up, even when I have a celestial selected, goes away whenever I move my mouse away from it--even if I still have the object selected. Now, to be honest, I really don't want a giant box staying up whenever I have a celestial from a cluster selected! But that only goes to show that the new way of displaying brackets is A) far less functional than the old system, and B) a massive pile of steaming cauliflower given that IF it did the same thing as the old system, it would be even worse than the (less function) version is now!!

So, yeah, except for the helpful tool tips which display statistics / numbers this change has negatively affected my game play more than any other change since I started 2.5 years ago.
Emiko P'eng
#971 - 2014-05-24 16:29:01 UTC
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
Please make it an option. Take a look at my previous, wonderful overview.

Now, look at the travesty it has become!

It's worthless now! Sad
This sums it up entirely.

As I rarely take screenshots trying to describe how messed up the 'NEW' overview tooltips are was a problem.

Thanks Alexis your pictures show exactly what has been bugging me from the start of this debacle!
Gaijin Lanis
Gallente Federation
#972 - 2014-05-24 21:14:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Gaijin Lanis
CCP karkur wrote:
Could you please explain to me what your huge problem with the bracket list is? (a genuine question and please be specific, for example: "cannot point/target object is space", why not, what is the problem?)
Most of the complaints I have seen about it is that you cannot click through it, but that was the case with the brackets before (we have old clients we can compare to).
The delay has now been fixed, the opacity has been tuned down, the list only appears on clusters.... what else is so horrible except that it's new?
Just so know, we are still keeping an eye on the situation, and have had a lot of discussions about it.


To summarize the previous 971 posts, The issues with the new tooltip system have to do with the following:

  • Obscures information that was previously instantly available and apparent in a fashion that is obtuse and cumbersome.
  • Provides redundant information in such a way that obscures non-redundant information and necessary functions
  • Vastly increases screen clutter
  • Generates input lag through frame drops as a result of poorly coded fade effects
  • Remains on screen long after information has already been absorbed.


To say, the clumped bracket scroll list "tooptip" window is simply a less useful/meaningful version of the overview window, that can't be quickly closed, moved, or controlled in any meaningful fashion that blocks a huge amount of screen space for no real purpose.

CCP karkur wrote:
If there is huge lag (which we have not experienced), then please file a bugreport on it. Running the logserver and submitting that file might be a good idea, so we can better investigate potential issues.
So this is an admission that frame drops have been noticed, but aren't considered an issue unless they're catastrophic. This. Is. Bad. Any framedrop experienced upon top of the line hardware running only a single instance of the EVE client will be exponentially more noticeable as hardware specs decrease and number of concurrent clients increase. Not to mention the compounding effect any level of anti-aliasing will have in dealing with poorly optimized transparency and fade effects. If a new design element results in any frame drop what so ever on high performance testing hardware, it needs to be retooled until such issues are completely gone, otherwise the effect it will have upon the average hardware will significantly sour the user's experience.

Also, I know this has been said thousands of times, but it bears repeating. Sometimes the only constructive criticism possible is the suggestion that one start over from scratch.

Just to be redundant, as that seems to be the hip thing with all the kids these days, the reason the new tooltip system is such a failure is because it replaced a barebones but functional and responsive system with a barely functional and unresponsive system, mostly for the sake of adding fade and transition effects to something that not only does not need them, but should never have them in the first place.

The above was written and posted with nothing but love in my heart for all.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#973 - 2014-05-24 22:12:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Tippia wrote:
[keyboard-smashing frustration]
An update on this. It may have been cause by some conflict between the game, the translation layer, and the OS. I managed to make it go away by (accidentally) starting the client in windowed mode. I had earlier used a switch from fullscreen to windowed to, at least momentarily, make the client update its mouse position properly. I must have left it in windowed when I logged off.

At any rate, when I logged in the next time, everything was fine — just the general annoyance of the sluggishness of the tool tips. It's as if the client had previously failed to properly capture the mouse when it went full-screen on start-up, and now it had a slightly different initialisation that succeeded in doing that (or just skipped it since it only cared if the mouse cursor was over the client window). So the client seemed to be fighting with the OS over what should be displayed and where, and whether or not the mouse had moved and required any kind of client updating.

It's just such an odd-ball effect, and I can't (nor do I want to) trigger it again. It was still very clearly connected to the tool tips since it was while the client was trying to display those that the mouse positions stopped updating. The annoying part is that when trying to create a proper bug report, I accidentally fixed it… Lol

Oh, and while we're at it: is it even possible (and if so, where are the instructions) to run the logserver on the OSX client?
Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
SLYCE Pirates
#974 - 2014-05-24 22:25:16 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Tippia wrote:
[keyboard-smashing frustration]
An update on this. It may have been cause by some conflict between the game, the translation layer, and the OS. I managed to make it go away by (accidentally) starting the client in windowed mode. I had earlier used a switch from fullscreen to windowed to, at least momentarily, make the client update its mouse position properly. I must have left it in windowed when I logged off.

At any rate, when I logged in the next time, everything was fine — just the general annoyance of the sluggishness of the tool tips. It's as if the client had previously failed to properly capture the mouse when it went full-screen on start-up, and now it had a slightly different initialisation that succeeded in doing that (or just skipped it since it only cared if the mouse cursor was over the client window). So the client seemed to be fighting with the OS over what should be displayed and where, and whether or not the mouse had moved and required any kind of client updating.

It's just such an odd-ball effect, and I can't (nor do I want to) trigger it again. It was still very clearly connected to the tool tips since it was while the client was trying to display those that the mouse positions stopped updating. The annoying part is that when trying to create a proper bug report, I accidentally fixed it… Lol

Oh, and while we're at it: is it even possible (and if so, where are the instructions) to run the logserver on the OSX client?

I got an issue like that. Mouse delay issue with graphics flickering.
I have to switch windowed to full then windowed every time I log in. Its a motherboard issue becouse it leaves no trace that CCP can track. hope is does not become chronic for you.

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#975 - 2014-05-24 22:56:38 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Yes this information is very suited for tooltips thank you.

Why even have tooltips here at all? I can open the item description and attributes very easily by clicking the little white circle with an i in it for info. And don't even tell me that someone might not know to do that, because if you've figured out how to use fitting management to the point of getting to this page then you definitely already know how to access info on an item, and even if you don't it's still pretty obvious that you can access it by either right clicking -> Show Info, or clicking the white circle i. I think double clicking also works but I'm not sure.

But the main point is, do you even have any clue what tooltips are for? Certainly not for the presentation of FOUR PARAGRAPHS. That's just absurd.

…oh, and not to mention that there's a very obvious middle-ground here if you absolutely have to have the big ol' bucket-o-text there: have it be more of a fold-out menu that can be accessed (or not) at will with a mouse-click rather than automatically spawned by accidental mouse movements.

If you want to be really advanced, have a '»' similar to what's in the inventory to show and hide the container list, but instead let it show and hide an info window that displays the description of whatever you're pointing at, kind of like this (and like this when hidden). Sure, it's no longer a tool tip, but with that wall of text it never really was one to begin with. At least like this, it adheres to some kind of UI standard.
Alternative Splicing
Captain Content and The Contenteers
#976 - 2014-05-25 23:53:18 UTC
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
CCP Delegate Zero wrote:
I just wanted to say that we are still taking onboard the feedback in this thread and elsewhere. We are continuing to work on improving the overall experience with tooltips and contextual information in general.

I understand where some of the concerns about abandonment of this package of features 'as is' are coming from but that is definitely not an option as far as we are concerned.

We're looking to put out a patch tomorrow fixing some specific defects but also putting in some delay configuration options.


Please make it an option. Take a look at my previous, wonderful overview.

Now, look at the travesty it has become!

It's worthless now! Sad


Yep. that pretty much sums it up for me. Seeing the old interface makes me even more upset, as it was so elegant and easy to use at the same time.

I don't think you realize how game breaking this is for some people. You have repeatedly asked for feedback. Everyone says they want an off button, and these images illustrate why.
Eurynome Mangeiri
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#977 - 2014-05-26 07:58:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Eurynome Mangeiri
ok, so i resubbed this weekend cause big fleet planned etc....


20 minutes into it, FCs decided to STOP since due to your crap tooltip, the game is unplayable.


this tooltip thing needs to go, it's a pile of dogshit.

THE GAME CAN4T BE PLAYED ANYMORE.

what hthe hell is WRONG with you CCP can't you see how BAD your thing is?
now stop acting like 4 yo little brats and LISTEN:

GET RID OF IT or at least get us an OFF switch.

can't be more clear, polishing a turd, it still is a turd

this will be the last time, now if by the end of this plex gametime it's still not fixed, i'm gone, meaning probably most of my corp will too, no point in struggling with brainded dev's
Panterata
BRUTAL GENESIS
GaNg BaNg TeAm
#978 - 2014-05-26 11:09:26 UTC
bump...

WTB switch on/off button!!

actually I already paid my monthly subscription - so I WANT switch on/off button
Oraac Ensor
#979 - 2014-05-26 12:59:27 UTC
Oraac Ensor wrote:
*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

>>>

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

Nothing I posted was in any way a personal attack.

I don't do that.
CCP karkur
C C P
C C P Alliance
#980 - 2014-05-26 13:49:37 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP karkur
Gaijin Lanis wrote:
CCP karkur wrote:
If there is huge lag (which we have not experienced), then please file a bugreport on it. Running the logserver and submitting that file might be a good idea, so we can better investigate potential issues.
So this is an admission that frame drops have been noticed, but aren't considered an issue unless they're catastrophic. This. Is. Bad.
Please do not put words in my mouth. That is absolutely not what I meant.

In other news, we are still looking into things.

CCP karkur | Programmer | Team Five 0 | @CCP_karkur