These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev Blog: Tiptoe Through the Tooltips

First post First post
Author
Lair Osen
#981 - 2014-05-26 14:07:23 UTC
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
CCP Delegate Zero wrote:
I just wanted to say that we are still taking onboard the feedback in this thread and elsewhere. We are continuing to work on improving the overall experience with tooltips and contextual information in general.

I understand where some of the concerns about abandonment of this package of features 'as is' are coming from but that is definitely not an option as far as we are concerned.

We're looking to put out a patch tomorrow fixing some specific defects but also putting in some delay configuration options.


Please make it an option. Take a look at my previous, wonderful overview.

Now, look at the travesty it has become!

It's worthless now! Sad


This is actually exactly why i Like the New system with tooltips.

Before, all the icons in space would move and form a big list, so i had no idea of their movement, relative positions or which icon was the one i was trying to target, which i found Really annoying. You had to click somewhere else then get a new list a lot.

Now i can actually see their movement and relative positions and the list of them at the same time, and if i want a new list i just move the mouse a little bit.
Emiko P'eng
#982 - 2014-05-26 14:44:47 UTC
Gaijin Lanis wrote:
To summarize the previous 971 posts, The issues with the new tooltip system have to do with the following:

  • Obscures information that was previously instantly available and apparent in a fashion that is obtuse and cumbersome.
  • Provides redundant information in such a way that obscures non-redundant information and necessary functions
  • Vastly increases screen clutter
  • Generates input lag through frame drops as a result of poorly coded fade effects
  • Remains on screen long after information has already been absorbed.


To say, the clumped bracket scroll list "tooptip" window is simply a less useful/meaningful version of the overview window, that can't be quickly closed, moved, or controlled in any meaningful fashion that blocks a huge amount of screen space for no real purpose.
Again apart from the lag which seems to be a full screen problem, I always use window mode.

This Gaijin's list list gives the main problems.

Also aesthetically you have gone from a 'Combat Heads Up Display' with the information overlaying what you see to a Microsoft Windows UI set of tool tips.

Just a reminder we are flying Combat Ships not word processors Roll
Eurynome Mangeiri
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#983 - 2014-05-26 16:19:41 UTC
CCP karkur wrote:
Gaijin Lanis wrote:
CCP karkur wrote:
If there is huge lag (which we have not experienced), then please file a bugreport on it. Running the logserver and submitting that file might be a good idea, so we can better investigate potential issues.
So this is an admission that frame drops have been noticed, but aren't considered an issue unless they're catastrophic. This. Is. Bad.
Please do not put words in my mouth. That is absolutely not what I meant.

In other news, we are still looking into things.


we don't want it to be different, we want it GONE or at least OPTIONAL

almost 1000 post, ALL asking for a way to DISABLE it, don't you understand what this means?

they prevent people from PLAYING!!
Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
#984 - 2014-05-26 17:13:26 UTC
CCP karkur wrote:
Gaijin Lanis wrote:
CCP karkur wrote:
If there is huge lag (which we have not experienced), then please file a bugreport on it. Running the logserver and submitting that file might be a good idea, so we can better investigate potential issues.
So this is an admission that frame drops have been noticed, but aren't considered an issue unless they're catastrophic. This. Is. Bad.
Please do not put words in my mouth. That is absolutely not what I meant.

In other news, we are still looking into things.



CCP - For the love of God, please start acting like grownups.... admit that you screwed up and revert this pile of crap.

Unless you put in sliders for every type of tooltip, and numerous other options, it will still be crap.


We know that you hate to acknowledge that you screwed up, as this would mean that you agree that the bright idea of some Dev (who clearly never undocks) is complete sh!t.

Be brave for once, admit your mistake and stop acting like a bunch of spoilt brats who throw their toys out of the pram when its clear that you c0cked up.

Gaijin Lanis
Gallente Federation
#985 - 2014-05-26 17:28:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Gaijin Lanis
CCP karkur wrote:
Gaijin Lanis wrote:
CCP karkur wrote:
If there is huge lag (which we have not experienced), then please file a bugreport on it. Running the logserver and submitting that file might be a good idea, so we can better investigate potential issues.
So this is an admission that frame drops have been noticed, but aren't considered an issue unless they're catastrophic. This. Is. Bad.
Please do not put words in my mouth. That is absolutely not what I meant.


I apologize. I saw the word "huge" before "lag" and interpreted as a qualifier. As, typically, when someone qualifies something, it implies the non-qualified states of that something are not being addressed. Read: "I don't like meat" vs "I don't like rotten meat." et cetera.

But here's the rub, fancy effects = frame drops. The issue isn't "game shutting down." The issue is "UI is now significantly less responsive and less usable due to areas of the screen becoming mine fields that generate frame drops whenever the mouse crosses them."

Maxing out the delay is also less than an ideal option, as information like wallet balances, exact capacitor/armor/shield/hull figures, and training time benefit from being quickly available (not to imply the new tool tips really do this). But information like the names of modules on the HUD (and nothing further), what the various buttons do, and all the other redundant information that was shoveled into this "revamp" does not need to be viewed quickly, if ever. So the delay slider is making someone choose between losing the four or five useful tooltips or seeing all the useless tooptips "instantly" and suffering frame drops whenever they fade in and out. Meaning the tooltip delay slider is really just a choice between "would you like delays from input lag, delays on useful information, or both?"

Also, this might sound odd. But I'm pretty sure a large portion of the complaints about the new tooltip system would vanish were the fade effects optional/removed. As the old system was pretty finicky, but one could deal with said "finicks" instantly, rather than having to suffer frame drops whenever the system "finicked" from watching said "finicks" fade in and out. For, if the new tooltip system were as responsive as the old UI, then and only then could one say:
CCP karkur wrote:
what else is so horrible except that it's new?
Because to say something like this in regards to the UI as it currently exists is implying, somehow, its perfectly fine for the UI of anything to be (in order of importance) slow, cumbersome, redundant, and occasionally insulting. To say, if the tooltips weren't slow and cumbersome, people wouldn't have much of a problem with them being redundant and insulting. To be redundant, the unresponsiveness of the new UI is the wound, the redundancy and minor insults (WOW! THE X CLOSES?!) are salt in said wound.


Emiko P'eng wrote:
Again apart from the lag which seems to be a full screen problem, I always use window mode.

I play in "fixed window" and I get frame drops whenever the tooltips fade in/out. Whats sad is I can't really call that a bug, as, duh, fade effects can't not equal a performance hit.

The above was written and posted with nothing but love in my heart for all.

Kenneth Endashi
Kor-Azor Slave Holdings
#986 - 2014-05-26 18:40:21 UTC
I am trying to live with the new tool-tips.

My impression of tool-tips is that they are still an annoyance, but I want to help out, so let me explain why:

I think the tool-tips over my cargo bay icons are almost pretty cool. It shows what the item is worth without having to click on it. Well, the only reason I carry items is because they hold value, so I like that. But I can't "have my cake and eat it too" because the tool-tips are bold, garish things that just blot out the rest of my view, obscuring other items around it at unpredictable rates (some blocks of text are very large - others quit small. This matters because the experience is jarring and without uniformity).

This is not such a problem in my cargo area, since I only view the cargo bay when I have time to sit back in my chair and examine it. But during a cargo scan, and looking at my skills, for example, I find that the tool-tips prevent me from making a sweeping, real-time assessment of any given situation.

In conclusion, I have found that going through my cargo bay, skills, and cargo scan results were easier before tool-tips were added to the game. I understand people's grievances with the delay slider idea, and I understand CCP's aversion to an on/off switch because the Eve community needs to have roughly the same experience. In a game where learning the UI advances pilot-corporation hegemony, it is important that we all play the same game.

However, my main concern - after reading this thread - is no longer tool-tips, or whether they suck. I'm going to go out on a limb and submit to the group that we don't like how "CCP karkur" only makes appearances to admonish petty comments.

When you post a comment in this thread, it signals to the group that you're paying attention. But when you fail to address hundreds of posts worth of well-written, well-thought-out feedback - and opt instead to dress down one individual for not showing proper respect - that sends a message to the rest of us that you have taken an adversarial stance with your customer base and no longer consider us to be valid, contributing members of a society whose character and values we, together, are supposed to uphold, and respect.
Sven Viko VIkolander
Allemannsrett
#987 - 2014-05-26 18:40:33 UTC
Here is yet another major issue I have with the new brackets in space. I believe this is a recent change--the window seems to have been made smaller. Here is an example (an unusual one in that the list is typically much longer--e.g., if I had my mouse over the station cluster it would be much longer):
http://imgur.com/gjNUruq

As a result of the list being smaller, I cannot often read what types of ships are featured. I can figure out the types of two of the ships in this list because they have the ship type in their name still, or they have very short names. But on the bottom one and on many ships, the name is too long so I cannot see what ship type it is. . . . This has got to be the stupidest change yet to the bracket system. In response to the overwhelmingly negative response, you try to band-aid it by making the window smaller, but it only lessens other problems while at the same time introducing even bigger new ones. FFS.

Honestly, what kind of functionality does this have?
Zero.

The changes made by the devs involved in this project have been one pointless scramble after another at patching up a fundamentally BAD IDEA. Somehow, you keep making it worse.

Seriously, just revert the brackets back to the old system--you know, the one that worked just fine.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#988 - 2014-05-26 20:12:33 UTC
CCP karkur wrote:
Gaijin Lanis wrote:
CCP karkur wrote:
If there is huge lag (which we have not experienced), then please file a bugreport on it. Running the logserver and submitting that file might be a good idea, so we can better investigate potential issues.
So this is an admission that frame drops have been noticed, but aren't considered an issue unless they're catastrophic. This. Is. Bad.
Please do not put words in my mouth. That is absolutely not what I meant.

In other news, we are still looking into things.

Stop "looking into things". For ****'s sake, you know exactly what needs to be done. You're not going to please us with your hollow promises about "taking feedback into consideration".

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

John Lawyer
Doomheim
#989 - 2014-05-26 20:19:33 UTC  |  Edited by: John Lawyer
I prolonged my subscription using my ingame savings - hope upcoming Kronos expansion will solve this tooltip madness.
If not - this will be end of John Lawyer's history. Sorry, but my new tooltiping EVE is no more PVPable.

One more thing about UI:
I usualy overheat modules by shift+clicking it.
Noticed that appearing tooltip blocks right next module in a rack (which I want to overheat too) - shoud I say this is bad?
Just imagine PVP situation when your win/death depends on have you your scram/web overheated.
Fade time is too long for my speed.

Also, I can like or dislike some style-related things like undock button location, skillbook's pictograms etc.. they can be measured at like/dislike scale. Flavor.
But tooltips case is something different - it affects functionality, not only 'stylish' side.
And functionality can only be measured by good/poor scale.
50pages of this thread says they have poor functionality.

So, why just not roll them back? EVERYONE will like it.
Arec Bardwin
#990 - 2014-05-26 20:39:30 UTC
CCP karkur wrote:

In other news, we are still looking into things.
I fear this means we are stuck with this mess in the foreseeable future.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#991 - 2014-05-26 21:00:36 UTC
We're stuck in an indefinite loop of *feedback*, "We're looking into things", *feedback*, "we're looking into things"...

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#992 - 2014-05-26 21:15:57 UTC
Adding my voice to the angry throng.

The only time I find the tool-tips not annoying is when the client is closed.

They really should have a level slider:
* None.
* Minimal - stuff everybody needs, like capacitor level, ammo loaded, etc.
* Informational - module mouse-over.
* Verbose - everything else (default).
Kenneth Endashi
Kor-Azor Slave Holdings
#993 - 2014-05-26 23:20:21 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Adding my voice to the angry throng.

The only time I find the tool-tips not annoying is when the client is closed.

They really should have a level slider:
* None.
* Minimal - stuff everybody needs, like capacitor level, ammo loaded, etc.
* Informational - module mouse-over.
* Verbose - everything else (default).


I've read all 50 pages, and this is the best idea I've heard so far.
Gaijin Lanis
Gallente Federation
#994 - 2014-05-26 23:39:05 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Adding my voice to the angry throng.

The only time I find the tool-tips not annoying is when the client is closed.

They really should have a level slider:
* None.
* Minimal - stuff everybody needs, like capacitor level, ammo loaded, etc.
* Informational - module mouse-over.
* Verbose - everything else (default).


If we could also get the ability to enable/disable the fade effects, we'd probably have as close to a perfect solution as we're going to get, as CCP seems determined to keep these "UI improvements."

I mean, the best possible solution would be to just roll it back completely and fire whoever thought EVE needed to be accessible to people who've never used a computer before logging into EVE for the first time, but hey.

The above was written and posted with nothing but love in my heart for all.

Varesk
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#995 - 2014-05-27 01:26:32 UTC
CCP karkur wrote:


In other news, we are still looking into things.


I really hope you are giving us an option of an Off button. Multi Boxing 4 accts. in windowed mode is a pain with tool tips staying open and blocking screens. It makes it really hard to do anything when the screen is full of boxes of tool tips.

also,

The "delay" option does not work for objects in space, ie. moons, planets, belts, ships, etc. This is probably the most annoying feature of the release. I really dont need a list that I have to scroll through to find the belt/planet/gate I need to warp too.
Locii
Zebra Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#996 - 2014-05-27 11:00:49 UTC
CCP karkur wrote:
Gaijin Lanis wrote:
CCP karkur wrote:
If there is huge lag (which we have not experienced), then please file a bugreport on it. Running the logserver and submitting that file might be a good idea, so we can better investigate potential issues.
So this is an admission that frame drops have been noticed, but aren't considered an issue unless they're catastrophic. This. Is. Bad.
Please do not put words in my mouth. That is absolutely not what I meant.

In other news, we are still looking into things.



any chance you could look into things faster and get an option to delay all tool tips or just turn them off quickly. this is annoying as hell currently
Othran
Route One
#997 - 2014-05-27 11:41:27 UTC
Here we go with the usual CCP arrogance - we know better than the thousands of you who don't like something so you can all **** off if you don't like it.

Well I'm giving serious consideration to doing just that.

This sort of "**** the customer, we know best" bullshit is endemic in most Scandinavian companies (like Nokia used to be) and is the reason most of them fail (sooner or later) outside their home countries.
Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
#998 - 2014-05-27 12:07:27 UTC
Othran wrote:
Here we go with the usual CCP arrogance - we know better than the thousands of you who don't like something so you can all **** off if you don't like it.

Well I'm giving serious consideration to doing just that.



Over the last few years I have been getting more and more p1ssed off by CCP’s attitude.

They promised a change in their outlook towards their customers after Incarna, looking to be a “better and humbler CCP”. That lasted about a month and turned out to be a load of crap.

I love this game, it’s just a shame that CCP attempt to destroy it, time after time with no concept of how much damage they are doing and with no will whatsoever to change their ways. Having a “We know best and screw you if you don’t like it” attitude really does not help. At all. Seriously.

I have long since stopped posting on the test server threads, as there is really no point. They don’t care about feedback, or they would listen to the customers. Threads like this have been common in recent years, but apart from some cosmetic changes to give the impression they are listening, nothing major gets changed or reverted.

The Unified Inventory was a prime example. Despite 2 separate threads covering hundreds of pages of issues and problems, they brought it in anyway and took 6 months of “Iterations” to get it half-way decent.

The point is fast approaching when I will just not be able to put up with this CCP crap any longer. I used to pay for 5 accounts, a year in advance (cash not plex), but am now using 3-month periods instead, in preparation for the inevitable straw that will be too much to bear. I suspect that I may not be the only one.
Jimmy Prophet
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#999 - 2014-05-27 12:16:44 UTC
So in space brackets are still useless and if we wish to use them like we used to we have to have the inflight tooltips on still. However the inspace tooltips you now have to scroll still, it blocks the screen with a black box (this still needs to be made more transparent if it is to be kept) and also it truncates the infomation on clusters of belts so you can't see which is which.

Please bring back the old brackets in space so they are useable and if you really want the more seasoned players to use the inflight tooltips make the box more transparent.

Also still having a problem on when the delay is set to max if i hover and wait for a tooltip it displays but when i move to a different object it then displays the tooltip instantly.

It is all getting very frustrating now and there is no updates on if these problems are going to be addressed or just swept under the carpet and left as is. Suggestions to us as users from you guy's to how you think the problems could be solved and getting feedback from users before crippling game play even more and then spending ages with minor unhelpful changes.

Communicating with the user base will get you more assistance than complaints. Help us the end users help you.

We want to play the game that is why we are here. But useless unusable and distracting walls of text popping up all over the gameplay and in the way deter us from playing especially when being told it isn't working that it is just left in instead of going back to the beginning and trying it all over again. It is more helpful than adding and adding and adding more and more gumpf to solve a p
Jade Blackwind
#1000 - 2014-05-27 12:42:37 UTC
The new tooltips are mildly annoying, but it really isn't a tragedy to moan for months about.

Still, CCP, some of those really don't make sense.