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Dev Blog: Researching, the Future: Stupidity

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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#21 - 2014-04-29 21:44:52 UTC
Volar Kang wrote:
On the bright side, start researching a bunch of BPO's to ME10 now and you will get maxed researched BPO's when the change hits!

This is the one thing I really hate about it.

I have ME 200 battleship BPOs, and perfect capital BPOs, like dreadnoughts at ME 6.
Thur Barbek
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2014-04-30 07:38:56 UTC
They really should have done 1-100 instead of 1-10. 10 levels is just so small a number.

Only reason behind this i can think of is they want to stack bpc's in the future and 11 ME * 11 PE is only 121 combinations possible. That is the small hope i am clinging to.
Apelacja
Sad Najwyzszy
#23 - 2014-04-30 08:44:44 UTC
THIS IS STUPIDITY
Any owner of capital ships BPO`s will say u this.

We can only thx CCP to reroll our BPO`s.......

For everything else it is not so important but if u have wasted one year on 9 accounts doing only reasearch and now it will be doable in 2 month u have wasted 9 months - multiplay it with fuel and plex cost and your afford and u see a misery.

Busje Komt Zo
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#24 - 2014-04-30 10:15:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Busje Komt Zo
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Volar Kang wrote:
On the bright side, start researching a bunch of BPO's to ME10 now and you will get maxed researched BPO's when the change hits!

This is the one thing I really hate about it.

I have ME 200 battleship BPOs, and perfect capital BPOs, like dreadnoughts at ME 6.

While I do understand why you hate this to a certain extend, you have to realize that anyone thinking of doing a lot of ME10 research now will be limited by both available research slots on his characters and available research slots in stations/POS.

You will still have the advantage with capital BPOs because it will be practically impossible to get these to perfect levels before the summer expansion if you start now. After the expansion it will be easier to get these BPOs to a workable level for newbs, but your BPOs will still give you the maximum profit margin and it will probably take even more effort than it was for you to get the same level capital BPOs as you currently have.

The only issue is with over-researched BPOs where the "perfect ME" is essentially infinite (an impractical high number). I personally don't think anyone should receive any reimbursement for such stupidity (even if it was the BPC market that was stupid about it).
Dearthair
Goibhniu Industries
#25 - 2014-04-30 13:08:54 UTC
They have also already said that anything that is perfect now will be perfect after the patch. So if a BPO was perfect at ME 6, it will remain so, and will probably take a LOT longer to get to ME 6 than it does now. Now, instead of each level of ME/TE being worst than the last, they are all the same, but take much longer to research than the previous level.

NBLID (Not Blue Let It Die), the new motto for miners, manufacturers, and retailers everywhere.

Velicitia
XS Tech
#26 - 2014-04-30 14:01:40 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Volar Kang wrote:
On the bright side, start researching a bunch of BPO's to ME10 now and you will get maxed researched BPO's when the change hits!

This is the one thing I really hate about it.

I have ME 200 battleship BPOs, and perfect capital BPOs, like dreadnoughts at ME 6.


Agreed ... hopefully the'll take that into account and make things continue to be somewhat "difficult" to train ME/PE.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Moonlit Raid
Doomheim
#27 - 2014-04-30 14:23:36 UTC
Dr Grant wrote:
It appears CCP is dumbing down Research. Instead of ME/PE we get Level 1-10 in each in category and that is it. Blueprint Copies will be be made so fast, that they can be used just as well as BPOs.

The reasoning?

"The major reason for changing this system is that the current relationship between ME/TE level and actual savings is difficult to understand without wrapping your head around some reasonably non-trivial math, which adds fairly substantially to the mental barrier of entry for industry and generally makes the system more opaque than it really needs to be."

Who, exactly, the ****, are they talking about? I am feeling insulted here. Since when is a simple division "non-trivial math"? Where exactly is this "mental barrier"? Apparently they want to attract drooling morons to the economy sandbox, because, you know, simple math is just too much of a entry-barrier to pass. On top of that, apparently we can't have normal people (notice i don't use "intelligent" here) have an advantage over retards, so everybody is equalized to the same level of idiocy. The probably should call this expansion "Eve Idiocracy", "now with free character transfer from Wow and teletubbies online".

Say goodbye to your Excel sheets, your carefull examination of market niches, your exploitation and manipulation schemes, because it is fairly obvious everybody is going to be brought down to the same level of badness. Apparently the notion of complexity and the requirement to think for a modest time is considered a bad "entry barrier" nowadays. Funny thing though, i joined this game because of its complexity and not its "accessibility" (which is just an euphemism for "we made it easy enough for really really stupid people). Apparently there are just so so many really stupid people who desperately want to play Eve but can't. Yeah right.

So you didn't think to link the document you're talking about?

If brute force isn't working, you're just not using enough.

Please Note: Any advice given comes with the caveat that nothing will be suitable for every situation.

Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#28 - 2014-04-30 14:48:39 UTC
Apelacja wrote:
THIS IS STUPIDITY
Any owner of capital ships BPO`s will say u this.

We can only thx CCP to reroll our BPO`s.......

For everything else it is not so important but if u have wasted one year on 9 accounts doing only reasearch and now it will be doable in 2 month u have wasted 9 months - multiplay it with fuel and plex cost and your afford and u see a misery.




Lol the research time for capitals is going UP. Good luck with that.
Busje Komt Zo
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#29 - 2014-04-30 15:05:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Busje Komt Zo
Velicitia wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
I have ME 200 battleship BPOs, and perfect capital BPOs, like dreadnoughts at ME 6.


Agreed ... hopefully the'll take that into account and make things continue to be somewhat "difficult" to train ME/PE.

Er, training a battleship BPO to "perfect" using the new rules (assuming they don't change) will still take something like 6 months (and capital BPOs obviously will take even longer). I think that is more than difficult enough.

That somebody spend 468 days (~1.5 years) researching their battleship BPO to insane levels is not something CCP should reward in any way in my opinion, other than of course guaranteeing that they'll get a "perfect" BPO post-patch - just like the guy that spend a year less researching on the same BPO.

Edit:
An idea for maybe rewarding those people who did put a lot of time in researching a ship BPO is maybe granting them access to a special skin for that ship [unlimited builds, simply select default or special skin during manufacturing]. That would be something I could live with :)
Velicitia
XS Tech
#30 - 2014-04-30 15:47:43 UTC
I was specifically talking about the capships in that they're "done" for all intents and purposes at 6.

As for ME 200 BS -- I might have one or two hulls up around there, because I was building them extensively. It's not so much for cost cutting as not wanting to haul as much minerals -- shaving off a million or million and a half trit per run (at me 150/200) of a BS is nice ...

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Busje Komt Zo
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#31 - 2014-04-30 16:13:33 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
I was specifically talking about the capships in that they're "done" for all intents and purposes at 6.

It's probably best that CCP rescales the ME for any BPO that is currently perfect at an ME level of less than 10 to be perfect at ME10 post-patch (so in your example ME6 now will be ME10 post-patch).

Having a limited scale (either 0-10 or 0-100) will be confusing if there are still BPOs that don't need research all the way to max (after the patch). And that's exactly the confusion they are trying to avoid with this new system I think.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#32 - 2014-04-30 18:45:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Velicitia wrote:
I was specifically talking about the capships in that they're "done" for all intents and purposes at 6.

As for ME 200 BS -- I might have one or two hulls up around there, because I was building them extensively. It's not so much for cost cutting as not wanting to haul as much minerals -- shaving off a million or million and a half trit per run (at me 150/200) of a BS is nice ...

I think the only capitals that are perfect at over 10 is a Thanatos at 11 (it has a lot of capital drone bay components), and freighters (lots of capital cargo bay components). All other caps are less than that (no idea about supers, but they don't count as +1 was 6 months, so over a M.E. 2 was rare).

Other BPO that are perfect below M.E. 10: small rigs, T2 components (if you are a T2 producer, you probably have many sets of these). I object to having to research these further.

M.E. 200 takes about 20 months, so if M.E. 10% takes 6 months, BPO values just dropped a lot (-14 months).
Busje Komt Zo
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#33 - 2014-04-30 19:37:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Busje Komt Zo
[duplicate]
Busje Komt Zo
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#34 - 2014-04-30 19:42:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Busje Komt Zo
Tau Cabalander wrote:

M.E. 200 takes about 20 months, so if M.E. 10% takes 6 months, BPO values just dropped a lot (-14 months).


You are under the assumption you need to research battleship BPOs to ME 200.

If you had researched a battleship BPO for 6 months (same as perfect level after patch) it would have been ME 75.

The waste difference between ME 200 and ME 75 on a Dominix BPO is 60k ISK. That is less than 0.05% of the sell price.

Now in the current system it is not very clear when to stop researching on BPOs where a perfect level is unobtainable (to high), but it's pretty obvious you overresearched those BPOs and I don't think you should be rewarded for that (other than maybe some kind of token or whatever). Post-patch people with battleship BPOs at a certain level (with current plans ME 10) should have the same quality BPO as the ME 200 BPO you have.
Shoogie
Serious Pixels
#35 - 2014-04-30 20:14:00 UTC
I don't understand why they are doing this. It seems like change for change's sake.

Both the current and future systems had diminishing returns for research.
Currently, each ME level takes the same time to research, but you get less benefit for each successive level. In the future, you will get the same benefit for each level of research, but each successive level will take more time than the previous.

The benefit of the previous system is that you had the option to get another level of research if you were not building. You could say, "I'm going to take a month off building Obelisks. Hmm, should I throw my BPO into copy to get a BPC to sell, or should I put it in ME research and get one more ME level?"

In the future it is going to be, "Whew, luckily I had an ME5 Obelisk blueprint so the patch changed it to ME 9%. But I'm going to take a month off building them. Maybe I could get another ME level and make it perfect? Ah nevermind. The quote says that will take over 4 years. I guess I'll make copies."

Then there is going to be the poor guy who has an ME3 Obelisk blueprint today. When the patch hits, he will be given an ME 7% blueprint. If he wants to research his blueprint to match the first guy, it will take him 2 years, 21 weeks. Very, very, very few people will do that. So congratulations player A. You now have practically a permanent advantage over everyone else.

So you say the difference between ME 7% and ME 9% is trivial? Is it? 2% of a 1.4 Billion isk ship is 28M isk per unit extra profit. Permanently. How do blueprint ME levels interact with ME increasing POS Assembly arrays and ME increasing teams and ME increasing whatever else they add to the game?

It is similar to T2 BPOs in that they are going to make more special items which can (practically)never be made again, and confer their owners with a permanent competitive advantage over everyone who started the game too late to get one.

Was the old system really difficult to understand? Did it break when they set slots to be unlimited? Why bother with these blueprint conversions and research changes? Was anybody hurt when Tau researched his battleship to ME 200?
Moonlit Raid
Doomheim
#36 - 2014-04-30 21:48:07 UTC
Just putting next to the ME level on the BP info page the "perfect" level would sort this "complexity problem" out. Just like you get a perfect minerals figure. Just have on the BP info what it's perfect ME and TE is.

If brute force isn't working, you're just not using enough.

Please Note: Any advice given comes with the caveat that nothing will be suitable for every situation.

Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#37 - 2014-04-30 22:20:28 UTC
Busje Komt Zo wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
M.E. 200 takes about 20 months, so if M.E. 10% takes 6 months, BPO values just dropped a lot (-14 months).

You are under the assumption you need to research battleship BPOs to ME 200.

You are the one making assumptions. Wrongly, I might add.

You are also missing the point entirely.
Anne Kingston
Null Sec PvP Corporation
Neutral States
#38 - 2014-04-30 23:23:53 UTC
OP I do not think you entirely grasp the changes being made here, I recommend you re-read the article and try not to get butthurt when he talks about math. No one is taking away your precious intelligent gameplay. No one is dumbing down, no one is insulting you. Calm down, take a deep breath and get back to work.

I'm under the belief that, even if more "dumb people" start manufacturing they will still not be able to hold the cake when it comes to direct market choices, nuances of systems, min/maxing orders/minerals/import/export, Hub Research, greatest viability of time, population of markets, etc.

tl;dr: If you are an intelligent player, you will still have a significant advantage. Though, judging by your post, I assume you do not fall into that category.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#39 - 2014-04-30 23:40:27 UTC

QQ some more will ya....

There will be plenty of complexity in the new system to find nice market / indy niches.

The dread BPO is rank 854.
ME 6 (current) will be equivalent to ME 9 in the new system.
To research to ME 9 in the new system will take 1 day * 854 == 854 days, or 2.5 years to ascertain. You took half that time to train your precious BPO to level 6, so quit bitching like an ignorant 4 year old.



Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#40 - 2014-04-30 23:54:29 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Busje Komt Zo wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
M.E. 200 takes about 20 months, so if M.E. 10% takes 6 months, BPO values just dropped a lot (-14 months).

You are under the assumption you need to research battleship BPOs to ME 200.

You are the one making assumptions. Wrongly, I might add.

You are also missing the point entirely.


A few points: To research the BS BPO from ME100 to ME 200 saves you 70k isk per battleship, but took an entire year to train.

Now, it will be converted into an ME10 BPO, with will have less waste than your current BPO (since it will be "perfect" instead of just near perfect). If you are complaining that someone else can also have a perfect BPO by spending 7 Months researching their BS to new ME 10, you should take a step back and breathe. We all know that if you took the time to train up to ME 200, then you're anal retentive OCD was certainly bugging you to train ME 300 and 400 and 500 until you finally reached perfect ME 1,500,000+. You should thank CCP for saving you from the retardedness of your affliction by giving you perfect ME in a reasonable time.

For the intelligent players out there, a 70k isk savings on a 175m isk item will not provide enough benefits to justify researching your BPO for an entire extra Year or Two!